Posts by AllTimeJeff

501

Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

having problem pasting this...

AllTimeJeff

So while Ray Franz ("anointed") and Ed Dunlap ("other sheep") were assigned (by Karl Adams, Writing Department Overseer and also "other sheep") to write study articles and study books, Karl was assigned to write articles for Awake about things like dung beetles and banana trees. Other writers told me that it used to burn him up with envy. So he played a key role in the 1980 "Franz/Dunlap" incident, thus eliminating his rivals. Finally, he got to write some "outstanding" Watchtower study articles. My favorite was his classic about "tacking into the wind." In that article, he destroyed any credibility the WTS may have had by revealing their secret: that no one at WT HQ had divine direction, nor any clue as to what they were talking about; that they were all just feeling their way along like blind mice looking for their tails. Or is it "the blind leading the blind?" That was adapted from one of his service talks. (I'll bet Karl Adams was ready to jump off the Brooklyn Bridge when that one got published.) Yes, Karl was one of a kind, a true "Watchtower man."
This is what rocks the boat of every JW, to hear stories like this. From then on, you must make a choice: feed the dissonance and keep fooling yourself, or stop the bus! I've got to get off. Loonies!! Bethel cured me of the Watchtower. Once you lose all respect for these old men in diapers, it's over for any serious religious experience. You are simply remaining in a stupid, poorly run corporate bureaucracy with no imagination and no hope. There is life outside the WT, folks!

Well said Randy. What did it for me is seeing the GB while at Gilead. It was amazing how little they thought of their own example. They truly walk around like they own the place. (well, I guess they do) When you see Cary Barber still flirting with young sisters at the age of 100 (he hit on my ex wife in his charming old man kind of way during our tour of Brooklyn) and hear Anthony Morris drop the names in his concluding prayer of the annual meeting of Freddy Franz and Nathan Knorr several times, you realize what you are up against. The JW religion is designed to deify the Governing Body. We were taught (indoctrinated) at Gilead to respect and cherish our religions past. We were told that we were going to "walk the same streets that Russell did" when visiting Brooklyn. Bethel is the cookiest place I have ever seen, ever.

Mark Noumair recommended to our Gilead class that we read Karl Klein's life story. I had heard Klein give several DC talks through the years and after meeting him thought the man a genuine kook. But because he was so "human", we future missionaries were told there was a lot to learn from his mini-memoir. The message I got from that article was that I could do a whole lot of sinning and be an idiot and it was still ok. Then I had to watch other people who didn't get away with being idiots because they weren't true "Watchtower men".

Great thread and comments!. Thanks to you truly courageous ex Bethelites of old for having the courage and honesty to leave and for sharing your experiences. I want to add as a comment that I come across several JW's or ex JW's who are totally guilt stricken because they still think they have left Noah's Ark and they can feel the rain. Sharing the true real experiences of Bethel really helps all who are leaving or are thinking of leaving.

95

State Truthful Facts About JWs That Make Them Look Bad, Weird, Foolish

by minimus in

you don't need to exaggerate the foibles of jws to get the point across that they are not "the truth".

can you state some facts that show that jehovah's witnesses are not "normal' and that their religion is weird and simply abnormal?.

AllTimeJeff

In addition to all of the non doctrinal points, the indefensible position of viewing the bible as a book that exclusively prophecied the existence of the modern day remnant, esp the Presidents of the WTBTS woke me up for good.

Russell, Rutheford and Knorr were prophesied as the antitypical representations of everyone from Noah, Abraham and Moses. If I haven't bored you with my anti-epiphany, when I learned at Gilead that Elijah = Rutherford and Elishah = Knorr, I knew this was a crock.

60

Stay or leave your spouse after leaving JWs - Do you have regrets?

by Awakened at Gilead in

i am in a situation that many of you have faced... whether to stay with my spouse or not after having learned the falsehood of the org.. my wife is diehard witness who gets upset whenever i talk about the org negatively.

she is not happy that i am on jwd... in fact the other day she picked up the keyboard and wanted to throw it accros the room or bash me with it when she saw i was on jwd... she is also very upset about me making friends with "apostates" and worldly people, and told me never to bring them to our home!

this concerns me, since i am not going to have any friends in the org, and i need at least a few friendships...she doesn't want me to talk to the friends in the cong about my decision so that i don't share my doubts.

AllTimeJeff

One the one hand, I didn't at the time (and frankly still dont) see a way to make it work, given all that we had been through. She was dyed in the wool loyal. I wasn't.

My biggest mistake, and one I hope to avoid making in the future, is the lack of honesty, the years worth of it, that preceded my leaving the borg and her. Had I been more upfront about my feelings, perhaps the marriage was salvageable. But I broke everything all at once (a mistake in retrospect) and it really killed any chance of saving the marriage.

I definitely reccomend talking with someone you really trust and make sure you are sure. Don't be quick, don't be overly emotional. I wish you all the best!

36

WORDS are dangerous things!!

by Terry in

it is sometimes easy to be confused by the difference between:.

what we call things.

2.how many key words that make up my world view are really bad lables?.

AllTimeJeff

Bravo Terry!

Words matter! How many people get tripped up over semantics in the first place. Terry, you took the next step to show that the value we attach to words in the form of labels often creates more probelms, esp if we assume that we have our labels/words correctly defined as fact. Lets face it, most of us see the world we live in according to the lens of facts. Except often, these facts are nothing more then opinions we have accepted over time.

Concepts of justice, mercy, god, etc are nothing more to each of us individually then the meanings we attach to the particular words. I only took Terry's essay as a warning to carefully examine the beliefs that engender our words.

Shazard, I think your own reply proves Terry's point, but I digress, I am not his apologist. The only thing I got from your retort was that you disagree. Which is your right.Beyond that, I saw nothing in your response to give me a reason why your disagreement makes you correct. Cest la vie!

25

Repudiate "Valueless Things" 4/15/08 WT

by bud2114 in

hot off the presses - just some of the latest garbage coming out of brooklyn as found in the 1st study article - repudiate "valueless things" (4/15/08 koolaid edition wt): .

par 17: another example of valueless words is found among the religious leaders of christendom.

these claim to speak in god's name, but most of their utterances are not based on the scriptures, and what they have to say is basically worthless.

AllTimeJeff

Rather, we ask: "Is the one spreading this story acting in harmony with what the Bible says? Do these stories or allegations further Jehovah's purpose? Do they promote the peace of the congregation?" Anything we hear that tears down the brotherhood rather than builds it up is a worthless thing. -

The bible says that you can't question what you hear? That you have to accept everything a group of men say? No it doesn't. But this is a frontloaded scenario and a typical straw man arguement. I will take them one at a time:

"Is the one spreading this story acting in harmony with what the Bible says? How broad a statement is this? One of the most over-interpreted controversial books in history is made to sound like it is really a 32 page instruction manual that is clear as a sunrise. Totally false. Of course, being brainwashed, the only thing the GB wants out of this is a bunch of nodding heads.

Do these stories or allegations further Jehovah's purpose? Great point! I am sure that the pedophile elders that have been protected for decades really further Jehovah's purpose. How many people will now never listen to the truth because of the scandal? Isn't their blood on the hands of the GB? I KNOW of those who were totally turned off by JW's simply because of how they have handled pedophiles. I can't imagine that further's Jehovah's purpose.

Do they promote the peace of the congregation?" This is the golden egg that the GB wants to continually harvest. Peace of the congregation = don't question a thing, even and especially legitimate points. In effect, they are saying, "If loving you is wrong, then I don't want to be right." They don't care if they are wrong, they really don't, and they are getting more bold on that point. Now, it's not about truth, its about unity, their version of unity.

In harmony with John's counsel, we always encourage those we meet in the preaching work to test what they have been taught by comparing it with the Bible. That is a good rule for us too. If any statements come to our ears that are critical of the truth or that cast aspersions on the congregation, the elders, or any of our brothers, we do not accept them at face value.

The key is that if it is critical "we do not accept them at face value." Really? Why? We have to accept at face value the mysterious ways the annointed get their calling! We have to accept the double speak of Mt 24:45-47 and the GB interpretation that they "represent" the dis-enfranchised non GB members of the annointed. The burden of proof is shifted to the straw man, not to the real issues that are raised.

WT's like this always made me feel uncomfortable, esp when I had to conduct the WT. To have to look out on the audience, knowing who the pedophiles were, knowing who was being beat up by dumb ass elders, knowing those who were having some doubts, and then have to basically tell them that they weren't allowed to even mentally entertain and consider their own legitimate questions? It wasn't fair to tell these people that their very real question on real issues were being portrayed as doubts based on flaws in one's faith.

This represents real rot from the inside. This arguement is not new, but it is loosing its effectiveness on younger generations. The information age will ultimately bring down the JW's. The climate has changed from one of unquestioning trust and belief in our instutions of church and government to one of questioning what you believe, why you believe it, and why should I believe you?

(Sorry this is so long...) WHEN people stop becoming JW's in western lands, and WHEN financial support dries up, the last to catch on to the GB fraud will be the rank and file. What will happen then I can't predict. But I do predict that the "waters" for JW's to draw from will slowly dry up, no doubt about that.

39

Do you feel reading through the bible in the past has benefited you at all?

by Hope4Others in

putting the doctrine aside do you feel it has given you any advantages?

case in point my son posts on university sites and often the topic about the bible.

and god come up.

AllTimeJeff

Since the question is benefit, then yes.

I read it 20 times. Knowing what I do now, 2 would have been plenty! To read it more then that is to assign it too much importance.

There is certainly some acquired wisdom there. The words attributed to Jesus at time are very benficial, though not enough to build a 2000 year old cult around.

3

Wisdom

by AllTimeJeff in

jw
friends

i haven't contributed much in a while.

life keeps me busy.

for me, (and i only speak for myself) i have struggled with learning about myself since leaving.

AllTimeJeff

I haven't contributed much in a while. Life keeps me busy. For me, (and I only speak for myself) I have struggled with learning about myself since leaving. Or maybe it would be better to say that I have struggled to do a better job at listening to myself and get to the wisdom that some of my life's experiences have tried to teach me. Because their is a difference between experience and wisdom.

Just to let everyone know, I have struggled with fear. Fear of homelessness (that has always been my biggest one) and fear of failure, esp failing on my job. I haven't been rational about these things. They don't stick with me all the time, but they do pop up in the isolated silence. I also struggle with the decisions I made, leaving the JW (not a hard one as it turned out) leaving a bad marriage (much harder then I thought it would be, dealing with the emotions, thinking back to how you could have done things differently...) Wondering if past performance represents future results. I moved two times in the last two years to places where no one knew me. I have been homesick for the life I had. Not that I would go back to it, I just miss what is familiar. I can't do anything about that, because I already made the decision, and life is made up of each decision we make, big and small, good or bad.

The fact is that I have been through a lot. My experience is pretty good. I am no longer the naieve 20 something overly ambitious religious zealot. Life slapped me good. I actually failed at a good number of things. But I wouldn't have failed if I didn't try. And as I sit here, the one thing I see missing in my life since I left is wisdom and perspective. The ability to make sense of my experience and use it to benefit me. I'm not talking of religious wisdom, but practical experience, the kind you could get from your grandparents, or your parents if they actually had any. The fact is, I write about wisdom right now because slowly but surely I have been including people in my life, and getting some perspective on me.

Sometimes when life sucks, and bad things happen, we get confused. I know this has been the case with me. Suddenly, you leave the JW's, and what is left? What is needed perhaps isn't to just forget about, but the ability to translate what has happened in a way that makes sense, so that you can understand it.

I think back to my grandparents, to my deceased brother, and I have asked myself, "What would they want for me? Would they tell me to react and view my experiences the way that I have actually done? Or would they tell me to slow down? To speed up? To forgive myself and forgive those that have hurt you?" I know the answer to that question for me, and it helps me a great deal.

47

1914- What's the big deal if it's the wrong date?

by cognac in

jw
friends

i hear it a lot on this board that the 607 date is wrong... i figured that out while i was a jw... never really thought much about it though.

just thought, ok, if it's wrong then everything is moved up about 20 or so years.... and for that matter, why is it such a big deal to the society?

why can't they just fix the date so it's right.

AllTimeJeff

Great logic Terry.

Not to belabor the point, but 1914 is absolutely tied to everything that holds JW's together. It is a really big deal. It would be tantamount to the Catholics admitting that the Pope isn't a succesor to Peter. There would be no Church! Ditto with JW's: No 1914, no JW's.

383

Thinking of becoming a Witness again and my reasons for doing so :(

by reniaa in

i've been a faded jw for 10 years i left because of my failed first marriage, i'm no hypocrite and realised i had left completely so i embraced the world and dived in, only christmas and birthdays i could not get into, they were too foreign to me having never celebrated them, like if i suddenly tried to do ramadan or something like that.. 1/ all the criticisms of the people in the truth you say on here, i've found in the world, warts and all only in the world nothing holds them back from being utterly horrible to you.. 2/ i got stabbed by a worldly boyfriend, i got married 2 times of my own choosing to men outside the truth, the first smoked and was an alcoholic, the second gambled every penny we had and defrauded me out of money after we separated, 2 divorces later i am currently pregnant and a single mum since current boyfriend decided kids was to much of a responsibility and he needed his freedom and i was 'too selfish to expect him to give up his life'.. 3/ parents-in-law!

i have been shunned by them as equal to anything you accuse witness families of and for the silliest of reasons, i had a disabled son and his grandparents said they wanted nothing to do with him because they didn't want to become attached in case he died.. 4/ i miss the honest friendships of the truth, i had friends of all ages from 14 to 80 years old and they genuinely cared for me, many trying to keep me in the faith a long time after i left but i was determined to fade so moved away completely, but i find friendships in the world so shallow in comparison and very hard to sustain :( i've never been a drinker and sometimes thats what friendship means you being a companion for them to goto pub with.. 5/ my recent boyfriend was in a christian religion, i thought why not find out about it, harvest churches if you ever heard of them, unfortunately it still hasn't stop him leaving me pregnant and alone and when i said to him how does he clear that with god, he replies "as long as i repent it doesn't matter" it's like he has a "get out of jail free card" for any wrong-doing in the bible, this is so alien to me and my witness trained conscience.. 6/ i recently out of frustration tried looking into atheism and joined their forums, it wasn't fun, they are as bombastic and arrogant as their religious counterparts can be from any religion, they make a religion out of not believing in god, it's very weird they talk of saving people from believing in god and offer nothing to replace it.

they said to me "be happy you are in reality now and enjoy it" and i thought "well if this is reality i've had enough of it".

AllTimeJeff

Hi there. Your post really touched me, and while I do my best to avoid offering specific advice on boards like this, I want to tell you that I do indeed have some advice for you: Get some help, professional help.

I have suffered from single event PTSD. I needed a relatively small amount of therapy, but it was very useful. It sounds like you are in a somewhat dark, lonely place. It is impossible on the internet to know exactly all that you are going through. But from what you described, there are other ways to deal with the loneliness then to go to a controlling group all for the sake of conditional love and acceptance. Do you really want to go to a group that doesn't really care about accepting who you really are?

I mean it when I say I feel very uncomfortable offering this much personal advice. But it is healthy to at least explore some therapy. I urge you to do so before returning. Remember, oftentimes after we have left a bad situation, whether that be a religion, a bad marriage, etc, there is still the tendency to remember only the few good feelings and good times and to forget the general bad feelings and bad times. So don't be hasty, consider talking to some professionals about how you are feeling.

11

Need Info About CONVENTION CONTRIBUTIONS

by V in

i am looking for someone to comment on the way distrcit convention budgets are calculated, including the inevitable "deficit" that is based on a prearranged dontation to the "worldwide work.".

this information will be shown in an upcoming watchtower comments video, so i need accuracy, documents, links, anything you can provide.. thank you!.

AllTimeJeff

At the CA's the Sunday PM song and announcement is always set aside for the reading of the accounts report. At CA's, there are 4 pickups scheduled for each day. After it starts, (10:00) after lunch (1:45) Immediately after the end of the session and one after that. For each scheduled collection there are a group of brothers in the Accounts office who count out every penny. In fact, on the WTBTS form, there are columns for penny's, nickels, dimes.... all the way to ones, fives and hundreds and checks. After each collection, a deposit is made. There are 4 bank deposits filled out for each day. At the end of the day, two brothers go to the bank and deposit the funds in an overnight depository slot. On Saturday after the session, elders meet for their business meeting. The Assembly Overseer (a permanent appointment that comes from Brooklyn) and his assistant conducts the meeting. Prior to this meeting, a Society approved formula, which changes each year gives that particular assembly its numbers that it needs to hit. There are two accounts for each Assembly organization, one with a bank and one account that is kept in Brooklyn. These numbers are combined. The elders as representitives of all those attending the assembly (representative theorcracy?) are given a list of expenditure resolutions to approve. Occasionally, a grumpy elder will question the expenses, but most of the time they are just rubber stamped. Items on these resolutions include airfare for the traveling overseers and visiting speakers, donations to the Worldwide Work and other circuit related expenses. No receipts are ever offered, although I am sure they would be produced if demanded. I am also sure that any elder who dared ask for such receipts would be "marked". After all the resoultions are approved, the forms for accounting are given to the Accounts Overseer. On Sunday, after the lunchtime collection, the total amount collected to that point is tabulated, and an intermediate report is read, that basically says the total amount of resolutions approved by the elders and other expenses, followed by the total amount of money collected thus far. After the final two collections of Sunday are done, the Accounts Overseer fills out a report similar to the one the Accounts Servant in each congregation has. This is audited by someone designated by the CO, usually if there is an A & B side, the other Assembly Overseer or Accounts Overseer will audit the accounts. As far as accounting systems go, it is relatively simple.