AuldSoul,
I've wanted to answer further yesterday but didn't think I would have the time to make myself clear enough about my feelingson this very important matter in spirituality. and I don't think I'll have the time tonight either.
I'm really interested in this thread which actually talks about more than grace and forgiveness - and can lead very further on the matter of the kind of spirituality it calls people to get into.
You've quoted the bible (and of course I have nothing against) but a tibetan monk - a jew rabbi - ... muslim, ... taoist - whatever means actually a few spiritual words said at the right moment to the rigth person from anybody even a kid would get us to the same point when we really pic into their messages what's really important spiritually (in or out of context depending on the matter).
It is not and will never be a matter of religion to me because any atheist for instance can be spiritually christian. Which just means that they adhere to (have faith in) his phylosophy / wisdom ... For a better understanding about what I've said and copied on this topic, you can see why I've wrote this at first : it's realated to an other thread ... http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/138505/1.ashx ... In which the reasoning have something to do with this topic (regarding to the bible) To resume the scriptures quoted explain what is God conceptually, and what is Christ relatively to God.
I want to stay conceptual because to me Christianity is not a matter of religion but a matter of spirituality (and everybody have acces to it) I mean you don't have to adhere to any religious specific belief (even about the existence or non existence of God) to get there. You only have to adhere to something which really makes you feel better and gets you able to transcend things you might never think being able to. And somehow you just need to really want it (for example to forget nor forgive others and ourselves) but of course that doesn't mean that we have to allow more pain from others or ourselves ... how many times did Jesus run away? It talks a lot ...
I've realised that the bible is saying things that most religious and religions don't pay attention to ... (because they focus on what is not important and can't get what is really important - it confuses everything often on purpose). In the story when Jesus is talking to sinners what he says is : Don't do this or that for your own good (but what is a sin? since you have to considere everything contextually out of laws) those he really gets angry at are the hypocrites !!! Egocentric nor materialistic and hypocrites about it (who wants to look like they are not).
We have an idea about how the inconcious and concious hypocrisy of the JW's doesn't help ... bad faith (hyprocrisy) is actually what doesn't allow us to see what is the most important in everything and what is important to someone is related to (what he loves/wants for real? How much? Why? = For who and what) and when are we or do we become hypocrites, when we want to consciously or inconciously hide something to others nor ourselves or when we want to save something which does not have a real value regarding to what's really matter contextually and regarding to the matter itself) ...
For instance how many times did we see parents in the kingdom hall striking their kids for them to sit down like adults to listen to speeches !!!??? What does this really says about the parents? But if you ask them why they'll probably answer something stupid just to not acknoledge their real reasons : looking good because they look bad or not being bothered by their kids that they put themself in a very incomfortable situation ... how spiritual, loving or even balanced is that? Why do they sit there themself for hours?
About salvation/grace regarding to sins when you read roman 7 ... you just feel to have a good laugh but in fact it talks about the importance of sincerity and acceptance about our weakness (ours and others onces which suppose forgiveness for others and ourselves). but still whatever we did wrong will have a consequence (we accept/assume it or not) but Spiritual maturity comes out of experiences (ours and others onces) we learn from them or we dont but to learn form them we have to assume our own responsabilities (regret - repentance and if possible repair).
OY ... sorry maybe too much off topic here ...
Posts by RAF
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70For Christians: Grace vs. Forgiveness
by AuldSoul ini have been trying to sort this out scripturally, and would like to get input from christians on how these two concepts differ and/or overlap.
please be liberal with scriptures to support statements.
i think there may be others who are trying to figure this out for themselves, too.
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RAF
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70
For Christians: Grace vs. Forgiveness
by AuldSoul ini have been trying to sort this out scripturally, and would like to get input from christians on how these two concepts differ and/or overlap.
please be liberal with scriptures to support statements.
i think there may be others who are trying to figure this out for themselves, too.
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RAF
Sorry OldSoul I'm on Short mode today :
(copy and past from an other one of my post) the goal : why this have been written - it shouldn't lead to be slaves for salvation but free as salvation by wisdom = Christ to resume ...
that's conceptually talking (also to complete wisdome is supported by pure love = Charity).
it is actually what I would call : the messianic principle. -
57
Do you like where you live?
by R.F. ini live in the southern united states.
i'm not too fond of the state i'm in but i'm within close driving distance of some very cool places.
the people in the south are awesome, very hospitable.
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RAF
in short: Yes
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DAUGHTER AND NIECE IN EUROPE
by outnfree inmy daughter katie and her cousin lisa are about to embark on an 18 day trip through spain, france, belgium, netherlands, germany, switzerland and then through the south of france back to madrid.
they will be travelling from madrid towards the atlantic coast and biarritz, up to bordeaux, poitiers, tours, orleans, paris, lille, gent, antwerpen, utrecht, amsterdam, bruxelles/brussel, aachen/aix-la-chapelle, heidelberg, munchen/munich, konigschlosser, ravensburg, zurich, luzern, interlaken, bern, lausanne, annecy, avignon, nice, monaco, cannes, marseille, nimes, perpignan, barcelona, back to madrid.
very ambitious, i know.
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RAF
Wow O&F ... Thanks for taking the time to tell us why
Me? OY... well nothing to do with your excellence in the matter (English as you can tell about the mess)
From almost 3 to 9 1/2 living 6 months in Belgium/6 months in France I was billingual in Duch of Nederland but never wrote it, didn't have classes over there, I went to school but I guess they didn't considere I really needed to have classes (little black girl !!!) ... though I had the right to play all day with the turtles for instance, talking with the nones and dreaming - I can tell school was cool there - LOL - dont remember much of this language now I haven't practice it since then and I just turned 40 (I've only went twice for each time for a week - some things came back quiet naturally on the last days but I fell totally lost the very first days - and realised when I've tried to answer sometimes that I did confused English with it - it's somehow a mixe in between German-English-whatever- and even a bit of French) ...
I've learned a bit of Italian by 2 years classes - wanted to take spanish (but have no regrets - Even if I can get crazy over the latino spanish accent - Oh my .. byt so does Italian me either). It's actually the teacher who bothered me at first (he was previously my historian teacher and Italian himself) he told me that I should take italian since my name was italian (back then I didn't knew my father's familly history yet and got the confirmation way later, my grand-grand father was a pharmacologiste which immigrated in Martinique).
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DAUGHTER AND NIECE IN EUROPE
by outnfree inmy daughter katie and her cousin lisa are about to embark on an 18 day trip through spain, france, belgium, netherlands, germany, switzerland and then through the south of france back to madrid.
they will be travelling from madrid towards the atlantic coast and biarritz, up to bordeaux, poitiers, tours, orleans, paris, lille, gent, antwerpen, utrecht, amsterdam, bruxelles/brussel, aachen/aix-la-chapelle, heidelberg, munchen/munich, konigschlosser, ravensburg, zurich, luzern, interlaken, bern, lausanne, annecy, avignon, nice, monaco, cannes, marseille, nimes, perpignan, barcelona, back to madrid.
very ambitious, i know.
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RAF
BTW Out&Free How many languages do you speak ?
English of course, French for sure, Spanish ? ...What else ??? -
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Responding To Posters With An Agenda, Who Won't Listen To Reason
by minimus inwhy do we do it??
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RAF
Responding To Posters With An Agenda (can be subjective), Who Won't Listen To Reason (can be subjective)
To give my point of view when I desagree ... -
47
The Story of Mr. & Mrs. Flipper
by flipper init was requested of someone on the board via pm to tell our story.
i'll try to keep it brief, for me that's hard.
mrs. flipper was raised catholic and got out when she was 12 because the nuns and cathlolic school teachers didn't like her independent thinking mind.
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RAF
... ...
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52
Have/Do you 'fake' orgasms?
by AK - Jeff inthe theme of last nites 'seinfeld' rerun.
it was a hoot!.
well.... do you fake them?.
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RAF
Since my roomate brought his a girlfriend lately - I could hear every kind of real LOUD stuff - but only her (never heard him) on one side its very funy cause it really LOOKED LIKE TOTAL FAKE or let say worst exageration possible and on the other side it was bothering because it was at any and several times during the night and early morning (so it woke me up - and who knows who in the building) but moreover because beneeth and abobe my flat everybody may think it's me, ... Argh ! ... geeeeeeeeeez !!!
After the second time (before they get into the room) I've told her nicely : Unless you feel to tell everybody in the building that you are the one who is making so much noise please keep the control ... So of course the answer was : Oh I'm sorry I can't control it - but guess what? Since then she controles apparaently because NO vocal NOISE but I can here " flap-flap-flap" noises which give me an idea about the position (LOL - even more funny)
He was supposed to leave in january, still here, but since he knows her it's almost done they are supposed to get together in their own appartement in November !!! which will be long enough : not sur the flap-flap-flap noise will make me laugh very long too.
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DAUGHTER AND NIECE IN EUROPE
by outnfree inmy daughter katie and her cousin lisa are about to embark on an 18 day trip through spain, france, belgium, netherlands, germany, switzerland and then through the south of france back to madrid.
they will be travelling from madrid towards the atlantic coast and biarritz, up to bordeaux, poitiers, tours, orleans, paris, lille, gent, antwerpen, utrecht, amsterdam, bruxelles/brussel, aachen/aix-la-chapelle, heidelberg, munchen/munich, konigschlosser, ravensburg, zurich, luzern, interlaken, bern, lausanne, annecy, avignon, nice, monaco, cannes, marseille, nimes, perpignan, barcelona, back to madrid.
very ambitious, i know.
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RAF
ok ...
Annecy (France) -- the latter of which she found so beautiful
Now that's a place in France I've never went but I guess I can tell all those who did agree on this statement -
192
GOOD GOD!! WHY ARE THERE SO MANY.......????
by Terry in....spelling errors on the topic headers?.
how much effort does it take to check your spelling before you post a topic??.
just read over some of the topics up for discussion right now and you'll see a very shocking (to me, at least) disregard for accuracy.. if you can't trouble yourself to get your spelling right how are the rest of us going to respect the fact you have your reasoning right either??.
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RAF
What boggles my mind is this. How can anybody argue laxity with a straight face?
read or ignore (they take the risk - since it's not that important on a board like this)
Refusing to do something easily done better is a cancer on the human condition.
In spelling matter on a board like this ? now that's Very spellitual !!! Errrr ... what about eradicating the cancer? lets say "war on spellcheckf*ker"
You must have read (and applying what ) a book (or your mind) says like "how to always get the point in turning around the bushes in validating yourself with nuts and passive agressive comments" tells to do. (I guess you can accept and deserve to have the same kind of answers).
What do you espect from that ... a$$ kissing? perplexity/beatitude? same kind of answers? agressive comments? humor should be the best (still it's a choice)
Man get this straight ... On here cares who care and don't care who don't care (simple) nobodies going to die ... and about Kaos (OY) I guess that there are real reason for people to get into kaos (OY) and somehow TVL set an exemple ... and it works for you (regarding your ways and understanding on things) - to me at least (so it stays subjective)
The WTBS methodologie is smart which does not mean that their doctrine and reasoning is not stupid.
Kaos (OY) is what happens when we don't see what is important where it is important - so then you have to take care of so many things that actually you don't really have the time to think act/react about what is really important (again it reminds the WTBS method)
If any feel that it show little respect for the readers, the question is more why put so much implication into this ?
I'm off this topic ... I know how you want to play (not worthy) So have fun turning every words and subject in whatever you want.