Ditto to Drew Sagan's point of Apocalypse Delayed probably being better suited for someone unfamiliar with JWs. I'll add Holden's book to my to-read list.
neverendingjourney
JoinedPosts by neverendingjourney
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36
A Responsible Discussion on Ray Franz's Role in the Lives of Former JW's
by AllTimeJeff insince it was learned that ray franz went to the hospital and then passed away, most threads have in my opinion, correctly tried to give some honor and respect to a courageous, honest, and principled man.. some borderline trolls, who know many former jw's are easily upset (and they know this.
i know this...) try to take advantage by hitting on a hot button.
in this case, its to call you a follower of ray franz.. we all know that isn't true.. but i think that a legitimate discussion on this is in order.
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neverendingjourney
I bring a slightly different perspective to this conversation than most. Ray Franz didn't "free me from the Watchtower" so much as my own doubts buttressed by what I read on JWD. I learned of Ray's views and experience through JWD first. For some reason, Crisis of Conscience was always a point of no return for me. I felt that reading the book was the ultimate sin that would preclude my return to JWism forever. It was much easier for me mentally to absorb his knowledge indirectly through this forum.
That being said, Ray has touched the lives of every one of us to varying degrees. He's been the only governing-body member to bring to light practices and procedures concealed which were formerly concealed to those outside of the GB. Some of us "dipped our toes" in "apostasy" directly by reading Crisis of Conscience. Others figured it out mostly be themselves and had their suspicions confirmed by Ray's books.
With the disclaimer that I've not read through all of the Ray Franz threads, I'll say that some of the complaints probably are really targeted at the groupthink and group hug mentality that often dominates online forums in general, regardless of the forum's topic. I imagine that some people may have gone overboard with the flattery, which only stimulates more flattery pile on. That's the nature of discussion boards. Forums like these often attract online bullies (aka "trolls") who like to get a rise out of people, mostly because most of them would never behave such way in public.
When I read the latest edition of Crisis of Conscience not to long ago, I noticed a minor discrepancy between what appeared in the body of the text versus what appeared in a footnote. I thought about posting a thread on the subject, but despite having typed it out, I decided against it because I didn't want to deal with the criticisms that would certainly ensue. Such criticisms, regardless of how minor, where frowned upon when he was alive, and I'm sure they will be amplified in light of his recent passing.
Nevertheless, Ray Franz provided an invaluable service to all of us who dared to exercise independent thought. For that I will always be grateful.
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17
New Creation Book
by God_Delusion ini was recently informed (on jwn) that plans to publish a new creation book were well ahead.
is this true?
if so, can anyone clarify this for me?.
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neverendingjourney
Cadellin,
The Society is in the enviable position of being able to sit back and attempt to poke holes in evolutionary theory. They don't bother to present a sounder counter-theory. Their criticisms of evolutionary theory don't even have to be consistent. They can sit back and throw the kitchen sink at the science as it now stands and try to make the gaps in the knowledge appear larger than they really are. Their goal, of course, is to get people to doubt evolution and accept their stance by default.
It's the same thing that an out-of-power political party does to the ruling party. They criticize and throw the kitchen sink at the ruling party in hopes that voters will grow disillusioned with the current rulers. No need to present alternative solutions, simply criticize what the in-power party is doing. The same can be said for conspiracy theorists. Sit back and poke holes at the official explanation for X and hope people uncritically adopt your position (even though it's more outlandish and less credible than the official explanation).
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31
Shawshank Redemption and leaving Jehovah's Witnesses
by AllTimeJeff ini doubt very seriously that i am the first to make the connection of exiting jw's and much of the movie "shawshank redemption".. frequently, the injustice that many experience as baptized members of jehovah's witnesses cause them to want to resign, to leave.. but it is a prison of sorts.
if you leave and announce it, you are shunned.
and no one will talk to you.. shawshank is such a remarkable movie to me for its simple, underlying theme; finding meaning in our suffering, and never stopping the fight against injustice, esp against our own freedom.. the best part of the movie is the line "you can either get busy living, or get busy dying.".
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neverendingjourney
Great movie, and it lost the Academy Award to....Forrest Gump. I liked Forrest Gump, but Shawshank was better. So was Pulp Fiction, for that matter, which was also nominated for best picture that year.
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17
New Creation Book
by God_Delusion ini was recently informed (on jwn) that plans to publish a new creation book were well ahead.
is this true?
if so, can anyone clarify this for me?.
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neverendingjourney
The Creation book is what sold me on JWism...I was 15 at the time and didn't have the necessary critical thinking skills to recognize the nonsense in it.
I've often wondered if the Society would take on such an ambitious project again. For one, we are now in the age of the internet and a new creationism book is certain to receive widespread public scrutiny. Also, science has advanced a lot in the 25-30 since the Creation book first came out, so the many of the arguments in that book would have to be tossed out. For instance, they try to debunk the archeological finds by saying that only a few specimens of what scientists purport to be human ancestors exist. Those fossils now number in the hundreds.
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10
Speaking of Crap, anyone interested in some old lit?
by gubberningbody ini've got an edition of the golden age from 1919, 1927-42 watchtowers, some consolations and other assorted junk..
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neverendingjourney
I shelled out about $15 not too long ago for the Rutherford ear book "Children." Its amazing to see with my own eyes the Society advising young people to not marry because the end was sooooo near. The year was 1941.
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55
generation teaching reconsidered
by inbetween inwas thinking about this new generation teaching, and to some extend it makes sense, let me explain.. first of all, i personally believe, it only applied to jesus time, it only made sense there, and when jesus talked about it, in the year 33, this generation certainly observed the events leading to jerusalems destruction 70 ce.
( even though the context does not really give much hint, since he talks about the sign of the son of man being seen in heaven etc, something that did not happen in the first century).
the main question is, what is a generation ?.
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neverendingjourney
It still can't believe how shitty an explanation they managed to come up with to explain their prophetic failure. Overlapping generations?!?! Really??? 15 years since the '95 generation change and that's the best they could come up with!
Stick three or four of the brightest minds on this board in a room for a few hours and they could have come up with a much better explanation than this. It's really pathetic and produces no confidence in the GB's ability to steer this massive organization throughout the 21st, but I suppose that's a good thing.
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Which Governing body member will die next?? Will things change?
by Witness 007 ini will review this post when it happens so.....prophecy time!
who will guess correct!
my $50 is on theodore jarc born in 1925?
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neverendingjourney
once the old guard has passed, Losch will turn the enterprise into something bat-shit crazier than you could possibly imagine.
Losch truly scares me. In COC Ray Franz talks about three men who viewed the brotherhood with great suspicion: Henschel, Barry and Jaracz. The first two have long since become worm food, and Jaracz has seemingly cemented himself as the de facto leader of the bunch, but Losch seems to be a worthy successor.
I got to see Losch at a few assemblies and he just exudes a severe disdain for the brothers. It's almost as if he feels they're all a bunch of disgusting sinners in need of discipline, like a head nun at a boarding school. His talks were very accusatory in nature. He always seemed to want to fill in the gray ares with concrete examples, listing specific movies, songs, bands, sporting events and such that a Christian should not be involved with.
While some may feel a guy like this could accelerate the Watchtower's downfall, I'm afraid he could alienate me from my JW family in the many years in the interim.
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Personal Story: Trying to Help the Flock
by OnTheWayOut inand told him that we needed to handle both cases.
and his buddy.
's buddy on the case.
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neverendingjourney
It's all horse shit. Not your story, but JW politics.
My very first exposure this type of corruption came when I was 18, a regular pioneer and about as gung-ho as one could possibly be. I bought into JWism when I was 15 years old. I hadn't developed the necessary critical thinking skills with which to fight off faulty JW logic. As a consequence, I believed in JW doctrine 100%.
My brother (now an elder) invited me to a get-together of sorts. It was at an elder's house, so I joined him. My brother had already told me about his sketchy nature, but I had never met the guy. When I got there, I realized they were gathered to watch a pay-per-view boxing match. The elder was there with his two very "worldly looking" daughters along with their "worldly looking" boyfriends. There were four or five other young JWs in attendance, some of whom were underage. Everybody was drinking, however, so I downed a couple beers myself. Also in attendance were a few non-JWs who cussed like sailors. During the boxing match it became clear that several in attendance had drank to the point of intoxication (or near intoxication). I was shocked. Had my elders gotten a wind of this, we would have all been dragged into meetings and would have probably been stripped of whatever titles we may have held.
What I didn't realize at the time is that my brother had become desensitized to this type of thing because much, much worse was going on. It didn't register in his mind that I might find this type of gathering offensive. As time went by I heard of things going on among JW teens that would have made a frat boy blush, and much of it was being covered up by elders. Of course, I didn't get exposed to much of this because people knew I was an all-in JW. It was clear, however, that there was a freely-operating subculture of JW youths acting as "worldly" as the real "worldly" kids.
I became inactive in my mid-20s and that's when I began to get exposure to some of the real corruption in the JW organization. Let's just say that I've personally been in attendance at a 30 year old elder's quasi-birthday party in which various youths in attendance smoked cigarettes, got drunk to the point of vomiting all over the place, and even smoked marijuana. I know it might seem difficult for some of you to believe, and I would have never believed it myself if I were still the same naive 18 year old I once was. But I witnessed this with my own eyes.
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10
There's a troll in the yard!
by Nellie inok - true story!.
my friend runs a diner/restaurant in a small rural town in georgia (population 400).
one of the waitresses has a 15-year old downs syndrome son who she occassionally leaves home alone while she works.
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neverendingjourney
I've heard this story, too. It was told by a "worldly" co-worker. The midget was a JW in her version. She doesn't know that i used to be a JW myself.