Posts by neverendingjourney

20

Why Did God Commission Russell to Preach to People Who Would All Die Before Armageddon?

by neverendingjourney in

i've posted this thought before, but i've yet to get a lot of feedback.

it's also not a point i see brought up very much on jwd, but it seems like a very simple, logical way of disproving witness doctrine/eschatology.. witnesses believe that the parable of the wheat and the weeds is having its fulfillment in our time.

that's to say that jehovah began to gather his people in these last days so that those rightly-disposed can survive armageddon.

neverendingjourney

Did he start this warning in 33 CE?

Although I'm not a believer, I think this is a better interpretation of the Scriptures. Ray Franz makes this argument in his books quoting from Acts to show that Old Testament prophecies that JWs believe are having a modern-day fulfillment today were actually applied by Christ's disciples to the immediate post-Pentecost era, such as those prophecies pertaining to the pouring of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues.

This in not, however, how the Watchtower interprets things. They believe their religious group (specifically, the faithful and discreet slave "class") was selected to warn mankind about God's impending wrath. Presumably, this warning-work began back in Russell's time or else their interpretation begins to fall apart. If the preaching work didn't begin in Russell's time, then was Russell not God's chosen messenger? And if it did begin in Russell's time, why would God "warn" a bunch of people who would all, without exception, die before Armageddon? What purpose did the warning serve?

For instance, what good would it do me if someone warned me that my house would burn down...50 years after I die? According to Watchtower doctrine, the preaching work is supposed to serve the purpose of separating the wheat from the weeds in the last days in fulfillment of Jesus’ parable.

20

Why Did God Commission Russell to Preach to People Who Would All Die Before Armageddon?

by neverendingjourney in

i've posted this thought before, but i've yet to get a lot of feedback.

it's also not a point i see brought up very much on jwd, but it seems like a very simple, logical way of disproving witness doctrine/eschatology.. witnesses believe that the parable of the wheat and the weeds is having its fulfillment in our time.

that's to say that jehovah began to gather his people in these last days so that those rightly-disposed can survive armageddon.

neverendingjourney

I've posted this thought before, but I've yet to get a lot of feedback. It's also not a point I see brought up very much on JWD, but it seems like a very simple, logical way of disproving Witness doctrine/eschatology.

Witnesses believe that the parable of the wheat and the weeds is having its fulfillment in our time. That's to say that Jehovah began to gather his people in these last days so that those rightly-disposed can survive Armageddon. They like to cite Matthew 24's talk of Noah and pre-flood conditions as evidence that Noah carried out a preaching work to warn people before the flood came and wiped them all away. There is supposedly a modern fulfillment being carried out today where Witnesses warn people of Armageddon's imminence.

But all this begs the questions: Why would God BEGIN warning people of the upcoming destruction of the world in 1879 when the Watchtower magazine was first printed. That was over 130 years ago. No human being alive in 1879 roams the earth today. They have all, without fail, died.

It seems to me that this very simple point makes the whole JW house of cards come crumbling down. So which is it: Did God miscalculate things and begin warning people too early or was Russell simply not God's designated Noah-like messenger?

Thoughts?

11

REASON for new magazine arrangement.

by hamsterbait in

jw
friends

as you know the way the rags are distributed to the congo has changed.. people just collect what they need at the kingdumb hell... this means that some who are not fast enough will not be able to get a copy.. more and more will start downloading the koolaid edition.

when enough people are doing this, the slave will decree that it is no longer necessary for this to be printed and shipped, brothers may "avail themselves" of the opportunity to download their own copies.. this will save on printing, ink paper and shipping.

will all that extra cash go to provide pensions and medical care for elderly bethhellites?.

neverendingjourney

My dad's been inactive pretty much since right after his baptism in the mid 80s. Every now and then, maybe every two years, he all of a sudden gets on a "spiritual" kick and goes back to the meetings a few times until he tires out and goes back to his old habits.

Over the weekend he told me that the Kingdom Hall was out of magazines and somehow this was a sign of how near the end is. I told him the distribution method had changed and he didn't get any magazines because he didn't show up to claim them on time. He then went on to recite some urban legend that some brother said he'd heard a circuit overseer say about a Bethelite genius who gave up millions in order to remain at Bethel. I just politely nodded and changed the subject after he finished.

26

Encounter with JW's on the Street

by OnTheWayOut in

i was pushing my sister's wheelchair as we were enjoying the perfect .

saturday noon weather.

we were going to a local restaurant to get .

neverendingjourney

I think this exemplifies cognitive dissonance at work. I tried to post a Ray Franz quote from In Search of Christian Freedom last night, but I couldn't get my computer to work.

The gist of the quote is that people have to conform their thoughts and attitude to their actions in order to avoid psychological discomfort (cognitive dissonance). The Society mandates a rigid program of "theocratic" activities, and as a natural result, members begin to justify and defend the Society's positions so that their thoughts can be in harmony with their actions. Thus, when confronted with logical fallacies or downright cruel behavior, Witnesses tend to minimize their importance, or in some cases, pretend they don't exist.

The young man seems to have gone from outright denying that shunning of family members is practiced (perhaps justifying this statement by thinking of a few examples where Witnesses ignore this rule and pretending that situation is the norm rather than the exception) to minimizing its importance by saying that it didn't matter because HE would never leave the JWs anyway.

The situation you described doesn't surprise me. I've not surveyed conditions around the world, but from my own experience, I can see that JW youth are particularly ignorant of their beliefs. This is probably the result of some 20 years of the Society's moving away from trying to empirically and Biblically convince members that they have the truth in favor of simply beating the members over the head with messages of obey the Slave at all cost.

26

Encounter with JW's on the Street

by OnTheWayOut in

i was pushing my sister's wheelchair as we were enjoying the perfect .

saturday noon weather.

we were going to a local restaurant to get .

neverendingjourney

17

Facebook is a menace to the fading JW! (and society in general)

by slimboyfat in

jw
friends

mark zuckerberg says that the philosophy of facebook is that people only have one identity.

i think then it's fair to say he couldn't have had jws leading a double life in mind.. i was careful not to add any jws to my page, so i thought i should not have any problems.

i did however add friends and family, including family members who are former witnesses and some who are related to current witnesses.

neverendingjourney

It sounds more like a post hoc pseudo-philosophical justification for the pre-existing architecture of the site.

I've been on facebook for 4 years. Back when I signed up, it was the anti-myspace. By that I mean, myspace had zero privacy controls. If you wanted to be on myspace, ALL of your information had to be public. Facebook had very tight privacy controls. You couldn't even register if you didn't have a .edu email address, and only people who were in your network could interact with you.

Facebook has now become the new myspace, minus the annoying customized backgrounds. They have become what they initially despised, and there's a lot of historical revisionism within that company to paint their move away from their roots as something other than an expedient money-grabbing ploy.

33

IN SEARCH OF CHRISTIAN FREEDOM - Ray Franz

by compound complex in

dear friends, .

some have expressed interest in the above title and their wish to have it for themselves.

the chapter of particular importance to many of us is "legalism - opponent of christian freedom.

neverendingjourney

I've already read Combating Cult Mind Control, Crisis of Conscience and Apocalypse Delayed.

I picked up In Search of Christian Freedom about a month ago. I'm about 430 pages (12 chapters) into it so far, and I've got about another 300 pages to go. It's been an enlightening read so far. Not that there's been a lot of "new" there that I didn't already know, but Franz's countless examples have helped me see the big picture a little more clearly.

Crisis of Conscience was half memoir, half Watchtower critique. It was also half the size of ISOCF. Franz still had a lot to get off his chest, and he does so in his second book.

What has really stood out to me is the countless of examples of double standards that have been applied throughout WT history. The picture that emerges is one of a religious organization concerned first and foremost with glorifying, protecting, and strengthening itself. Religious doctrines, policies, and teachings are then massaged in accordance with this primary goal. Of course, I had suspected this was the case for a very long time, but I have never been in a position to be able to verify that with my own eyes. Ray Franz does the filling-in for me and leaves no doubt that the WT was and is a religion, like most other denominations, interested in solidifying its ecclesiastical authority over its followers first. The well-being of its "rank and file" members is more of an afterthought.

10

Any good Russell or Rutherford biographies you could recommend?

by neverendingjourney in

i've read a few of the more popular books referenced on this forum.

i've read coc and apocalypse delayed, among others.

i'm currently reading in search of christian freedom.

neverendingjourney

Thanks. I'll put these on my to-read list.

Have you read The Four President's of the Watchtower Society? The title seems to suggest it's the type of book I'm looking for, but not sure whether it's worth the time.

10

Any good Russell or Rutherford biographies you could recommend?

by neverendingjourney in

i've read a few of the more popular books referenced on this forum.

i've read coc and apocalypse delayed, among others.

i'm currently reading in search of christian freedom.

neverendingjourney

I've read a few of the more popular books referenced on this forum. I've read CoC and Apocalypse Delayed, among others. I'm currently reading In Search of Christian Freedom. Despite reading these books and hundreds of threads on JWD, I still don't feel like I have a great feel for early JW history. I talk to an inactive friend who often asks me questions about early church history I have trouble answering.

I'm looking to read good biographies on Russell and Rutherford. Can anyone recommend good reads along those lines? Thanks.

21

The FIVE exciting Watchtower Presidential Eras

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

charles t. russell era (1879-1916)date: late 1800's.

okay, july 1879 if you want to be picky.. current religious views: many apocalyptic leanings, prompting the origin of several major eclectic religious groups claiming that god had rejected the mainstream christian churches for their apostasy in the fourth century, and that he has now chosen a new prophet, a spokesman, a faithful messenger to re-educate the world as to the truths of the bible, long-lost and unattainable by any normal human being.

to gain eternal life, man must listen to the new gospel of this messenger(s).. this century sees the birth of the church of jesus christ of latter-day saints (mormons), adventism and its various offshoots (including jehovah's witnesses), christian science, christadelphians and other smaller groups, each one claiming a modern-day prophet and new or once-forgotten revelations to the populace, many of whom we find shopping for new ideas, yet disenchanted with the churches.. scenario: a young man who can't understand theology from a historical development point of view begins to feel that he is the "seventh messenger" (rev.

neverendingjourney

One more thing on your 5 stages of your typical religious sect:the JWs have been somewhat immune to this curve (compare them with the Mormons, for instance) because of the revolving-door nature of the religion. With its extraordinarily-high defection rate combined with fresh recruits (mostly from the developing world and immigrant pools in developed nations), the WT virtually replaces its membership every few decades.

What is a old and stale religious movement in the U.S. is a (relatively) new and exciting sect in Latin America and Africa. If the JWs were primarily an American relgion with the roots of your average member extending back into the group several generations, they'd be much further along in the natural progression of such religious groups.