WHO ARE THE 24 ELDERS?
If memory serves me correctly... and it generally doesn't after a couple of glasses of whisky, I think that the 24 Elders are representative of the 144,000 "anointed" class. Can anyone confirm or correct me ?
AlphaOmega
JoinedPosts by AlphaOmega
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AlphaOmega
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AlphaOmega
Just for reference, this is from the Jan 1st 2008 Watchtower - "The First Resurrection Now Under Way ?"
10 Can we say more precisely when the first resurrection begins? An interesting clue is found at Revelation 7:9-15, where the apostle John describes his vision of "a great crowd, which no man was able to number." The identity of that great crowd is revealed to John by one of the 24 elders, and these elders represent the 144,000 joint heirs with Christ in their heavenly glory.* ( Luke 22:28-30; Revelation 4:4 ) John himself had a heavenly hope; but since he was still a man on earth when the elder spoke to him, in the vision John must represent anointed ones on earth who have not yet received their heavenly reward.
11 What, then, can we deduce from the fact that one of the 24 elders identifies the great crowd to John? It seems that resurrected ones of the 24-elders group may be involved in the communicating of divine truths today. Why is that important? Because the correct identity of the great crowd was revealed to God's anointed servants on earth in 1935. If one of the 24 elders was used to convey that important truth, he would have had to be resurrected to heaven by 1935 at the latest. That would indicate that the first resurrection began sometime between 1914 and 1935. Can we be more precise?
* For information on how we know that the 24 elders represent anointed Christians in their heavenly position, see Revelation—Its Grand Climax At Hand! page 77, published by Jehovah's Witnesses.The real reason why this is important, is nothing to do with 1935 - it has to do with the demotion of the anointed to a group with "no special insight" and the promotion (or reaffirmation) of the GB to having inside info from the dead !
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Writing paper, need info re: JWs taking children out of hospitals b/c blood
by cabasilas ini'm working on a paper for my college writing class about jws and blood transfusions.
i need information documenting situations where jws have removed children from hospitals to avoid forced transfusions.
the best sources would be from the wt or awake, but other news sources would be great as well.
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AlphaOmega
Cabasilas,
It might be worth getting in touch with Lori MacGreogor because I remember seeing one of her videos where they staged such a "rescue"... it may well have been based on fact.
AO
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by Bourne inok....i'm wasting my 2nd topic of day.....let's see what we can do with this one?.
bourne.
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AlphaOmega
blind mice ?
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Flog Her!!!
by Gill inhas anyone else been rather surprised (not) at the islamic reaction to this english teacher?.
i just wondered.
either i missed something, or some people in the world are and have always been totally insane!!!
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AlphaOmega
Re: "Buddy Jesus," see the report at http://sweetness-light.com/archive/iraqi-muslims-outraged-over-movie-poster-mocking-jesus
So... a case of mistaken identity there
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+++ VIGIL - TUESDAY 27TH NOVEMBER +++
by Sad emo inplease join in sending your prayers, good thoughts, reiki, healing vibes, lighting a candle or just taking a moment to think of all those named and unnamed who are fighting cancer or in any other need.
also their loved ones and caregivers.. - has been fighting mantle cell lymphoma for three years.
he received an allogeneic cell transplant and his latest blood and bone marrow results have shown no trace of cancer!!
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Is it just me, or is this place all warm and fuzzy today?
by dinah init's been a good day on the forum.
i've been trying to read more old stuff because i took a year off.
it's hard to keep up 'cos this place moves fast!.
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AlphaOmega
This seems like a good place to post this... it's a bit long, but well worth it.
O
nce upon a time, a long time ago, there lived two happy people called Tim and Maggie with their two children, John and Lucy. To understand how happy they were you have to understand how things were in those days.You see in those happy days everyone was given a small, soft Fuzzy Bag when born. Any time a person reached into this bag they were able to pull out a Warm Fuzzy. Warm Fuzzies were very much in demand because whenever someone was given a Warm Fuzzy it made them feel warm and fuzzy all over.
In those days it was very easy to get Warm Fuzzies. Anytime that somebody felt like it, he might walk up to you and say, "I'd like to have a Warm Fuzzy." You would then reach into your bag and pull out a Fuzzy the size of a child’s hand. As soon as the Fuzzy saw the light of day it would smile and blossom into a large, shaggy, Warm Fuzzy. When you laid the Warm Fuzzy on the person's head, shoulder or lap it would snuggle up and melt right against their skin and make them feel good all over.
People were always asking each other for Warm Fuzzies, and since they were always given freely, getting enough of them was never a problem. There were always plenty to go around, and so everyone was happy and felt warm and fuzzy most of the time.
One day a bad witch who made salves and potions for sick people became angry because everyone was so happy and feeling good and no one was buying potions and salves. The witch was very clever and devised a very wicked plan. One beautiful morning while Maggie was playing with her daughter the witch crept up to Tim and whispered in his ear,
"See here, Tim, look at all the Fuzzies that Maggie is giving to Lucy. You know, if she keeps it up she is going to run out and then there won't be any left for you!"
Tim was astonished. He turned to the witch and asked, "Do you mean to tell me that there isn't a Warm Fuzzy in our bag every time we reach into it?".
And the witch answered, "No, absolutely not, and once you run out, that's it. You don't have any more." With this the witch flew away on a broom, laughing and cackling all the way.
Tim took this to heart and began to notice every time Maggie gave away a Warm Fuzzy. He got very worried because he liked Maggie's Warm Fuzzies very much and did not want to give them up. He certainly did not think it was right for Maggie to be spending all her Warm Fuzzies on the children and other people.
Tim began to complain or sulk when he saw Maggie giving Warm Fuzzies to somebody else, and because Maggie loved him very much, she stopped giving Warm Fuzzies to other people as often, and reserved most of them for him.
The children watched this and soon began to get the idea that it was wrong to give Warm Fuzzies any time you were asked or felt like it. They too became very careful. They would watch their parents closely and whenever they felt that one of their parents was giving too many Fuzzies to others, they felt jealous and complained and sometimes even had a tantrum. And even though they found a Warm Fuzzy every time they reached into their bag they began to feel guilty whenever they gave them away so they reached in less and less and became more and more stingy with them.
Before the witch, people used to gather in groups of three, four or five, never caring too much who was giving Warm Fuzzies to whom. After the coming of the witch, people began to pair off and to reserve all their Warm Fuzzies for each other, exclusively. When people forgot to be careful and gave a Warm Fuzzy to just anybody they worried because they knew that somebody would probably resent sharing their Warm Fuzzies.
People began to give less and less Warm Fuzzies, and felt less warm and less fuzzy. They began to shrivel up and, occasionally, people would even die from lack of Warm Fuzzies. People felt worse and worse and, more and more, people went to the witch to buy potions and salves even though they didn't really seem to work.
Well, the situation was getting very serious indeed. The bad witch who had been watching all of this didn't really want the people to die (since dead people couldn't buy his salves and potions), so a new plan was devised.
Everyone was given, free of charge, a bag that was very similar to the Fuzzy Bag except that this one was cold while the Fuzzy Bag was warm. Inside of the witch's bag were Cold Pricklies. These Cold Pricklies did not make people feel warm and fuzzy; in fact they made them feel cold and prickly instead. But the Cold Pricklies were better than nothing and they did prevent peoples' backs from shriveling up.
So, from then on, when somebody asked for a Warm Fuzzy, people who were worried about depleting their supply would say, "I can't give you a Warm Fuzzy, but would you like a Cold Prickly instead?"
Sometimes, two people would walk up to each other, thinking they maybe they could get a Warm Fuzzy this time, but one of them would change his mind and they would wind up giving each other Cold Pricklies instead. So, the end result was that people were not dying anymore but a lot of people were very unhappy and feeling very cold and prickly indeed.
The situation got very complicated since the coming of the witch because there were fewer and fewer Warm Fuzzies around and Warm Fuzzies which used to be free as air, became extremely valuable.
This caused people to do all sorts of things in order to get Warm Fuzzies. People who could not find a generous partner had to buy their Warm Fuzzies and had to work long hours to earn the money.
Some people became "popular" and got a lot of Warm Fuzzies without having to give any back. These people would then sell their Warm Fuzzies to people who were "unpopular" and needed them to feel that life was worth living.
Another thing which happened was that some people would take Cold Pricklies--which were everywhere and freely available-and coated them white and fluffy so that they almost looked like Warm Fuzzies. These fake Warm Fuzzies were really Plastic Fuzzies, and they caused additional problems.
For instance, two or more people would get together and freely give each other Plastic Fuzzies. They expected to feel good, but they came away feeling bad instead. People got very confused never realizing that their cold, prickly feelings were because they had been given a lot of Plastic Fuzzies.
So the situation was very, very dismal and it all started because of the coming of the witch who made people believe that some day, when least expected, they might reach into their Warm Fuzzy Bag and find no more.
Not long ago, a young woman with big hips came to this unhappy land. She seemed not to have heard about the bad witch and was not worried about running out of Warm Fuzzies. She gave them out freely, even when not asked. They called her the Hip Woman and disapproved of her because she was giving the children the idea that they should not worry about running out of Warm Fuzzies. The children liked her very much because they felt good around her and they began to follow her example giving out Warm Fuzzies whenever they felt like it.
This made the grownups very worried. To protect the children from depleting their supplies of Warm Fuzzies they passed a law. The law made it a criminal offense to give out Warm Fuzzies in a reckless manner or without a license. Many children, however, seemed not to care; and in spite of the law they continued to give each other Warm Fuzzies whenever they felt like it and always when asked. Because they were many, many children, almost as many as grown ups, it began to look as if maybe they would have their way.
As of now its hard to say what will happen. Will the grownups laws stop the recklessness of the children?
Are the grownups going to join with the Hip Woman and the children in taking a chance that there will always be as many Warm Fuzzies as needed?
Will they remember the days their children are trying to bring back when Warm Fuzzies were abundant because people gave them away freely ?
The struggle spread all over the land and is probably going on right were you live. If you want to, and I hope you do, you can join by freely giving and asking for Warm Fuzzies and being as loving and healthy as you can.
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Who on this Board would love to get rid of Organized Religion?
by restrangled inimho....it all needs to go.
its influencing everything in this world every and anywhere.
from the saudies, to the people in irag, iran and anywhere else our sons will need to be sent.. our current president claims he is influenced along with the former prime minister of england by religious beliefs.. there is the huge evangelical influence that got bush and the mess he made who put them in to begin with.. we have the jw's causing absolute havic in anyone's lives connected with this stupidity.. it goes on and on and on.
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AlphaOmega
AO:
Good posts. :) I agree that one doesn't need religion to connect to God, but I do think it can be used as a tool to help people connect to God. I think the problem comes when that religion is the very basis of that connection imo, as when the connection is made, it should be something personal and seperate from an organisation, any relationship built around a 'middle man' is doomed to failure.Definately.
Maybe I am a bit hard on organised religions... they do indeed help some people. Without being judgemental, I would say that some people's faith is with them everywhere they go but for some, they need something to create a sense of "other worldliness" to help them connect to the Divine. So, some people need nothing but thoughts whereas some may need/prefer, incense, music, beautiful scenery, whatever... My thoughts are "whatever it takes, so may it be". But, as you say, the line of "an aid to worship" or "an aid to connection" often gets crossed either unintentionally by religion and sometimes intentionally by less scrupulous organisations. I see organised religion as the "estate agents" of God. (Real estate agents in other countries ? Realtor ???) Sometimes they help, sometimes they rip you off... but they always take their cut. -
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Who on this Board would love to get rid of Organized Religion?
by restrangled inimho....it all needs to go.
its influencing everything in this world every and anywhere.
from the saudies, to the people in irag, iran and anywhere else our sons will need to be sent.. our current president claims he is influenced along with the former prime minister of england by religious beliefs.. there is the huge evangelical influence that got bush and the mess he made who put them in to begin with.. we have the jw's causing absolute havic in anyone's lives connected with this stupidity.. it goes on and on and on.
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AlphaOmega
I know what helps me to "connect"... and it isn't sitting in a room full of people all vacantly reciting the same prayer and standing and sitting at the correct time. If I could get 20 or 30 like minded people together, we could form an organisation
Can I join?
Burn
I'll have to put it to the committee at the AGM.
As CEO, I have two votes, so I'll see what I can do for you. (this is the part where you offer me a bribe).