Posts by fresia

13

New light -generation change - which watchtower?

by Aphrodite in

can someone tell me which watchtower has the new light about the generation change and maybe a link to the article or a thread about it please?

fresia

The Watchtower of February 15, 2008, (pages 23-25), is offering yet again an updated explanation regarding "this generation," as mentioned by Jesus at Matthew 24:34. But, this is not a "new" understanding, for it is a return to what was presented in the Watchtower back in 1927. The changing explanations over the years of "this generation": C.T. Russell taught that "this generation" referred to people in general, who were living at a significant time in history. (Battle of Armageddon, pages 603-605) J.F. Rutherford changed this in 1927 to apply only to the members of the "new creation," the anointed. "Some members of the new creation will be on the earth at the time of Armageddon." (W27, 2/15, p 62) In 1942, "this generation" was no longer identified with just the anointed. (W42, 7/1, p 204, par. 43) In 1949 it was more clearly explained that it "had its modern counterpart in our generation from A.D. 1914 forward. This generation is the one that sees the Son of man coming with the clouds of heaven as foretold by Daniel." It was expected that the generation of 1914 would also be on hand to witness the end of this system. (W49, 7/15, p 215, par. 19) By 1995 time for "this generation" had run out and the explanation needed to be updated. Therefore, "this generation" became "the wayward people who make up this contemporary 'wicked and adulterous generation,'" but no longer limited to any particular date. (w95 11/1 p. 15 par. 21) Now, in 2008, we are told, "As a class, these anointed ones make up the modern-day 'generation' of contemporaries that will not pass away 'until all these things occur.'" (W08, 2/15, p 23-25) What is presented is the old interpretation of 1927 again. We are going in circles! Maybe the word of Isaiah below apply to us at this time: "O my people, those leading you on [not Christendom !!!!!!!] are causing [you] to wander, and the way of your paths they have confused. Jehovah is stationing himself to contend and is standing up to pass sentence upon peoples. Jehovah himself will enter into judgment with the elderly ones of his people and its princes." —Isaiah 3:12-14.

13

New light -generation change - which watchtower?

by Aphrodite in

can someone tell me which watchtower has the new light about the generation change and maybe a link to the article or a thread about it please?

fresia

Its just a re hashed old Rutherford teaching on the generation, from 1927.

12

Fruits of the JW's

by searcher in

i was talking with an elder and i asked him "how can i be sure that the organisation speaks for jehovah?".

he answered with "by their fruits you will know them".. .

let us explore some of those 'fruits'.

fresia

I don't know about the preaching all the world thing as far as whether they have physically reached the entire planet , they do not expect to make a visit to every house on the planet but apparently have tried to reach the leaders of countries .

The scriptures says the good news preached in all nations, not every individual person. I guess a lot of things are based on faith, and that basically is what its all about, obedience to Christ and follow his footsteps produces good relationship with God because of clean conscience by trying to practice the word show repentance and progression, there fore one gets more faith trust and faith are linked.

15

Does anyone have a scan of the handwritten page from the Elders book?

by jwfacts in

i think it is page 143. i am particularly interested in copies that have notes on how to deal with pedophilia

fresia

Found this on a forum, not saying I agree with it though you may find it interesting..

1) Those guilty of an act of child abuse in the distant past under the letter of the law, and
2) "known child molesters"

Do you remember the example the WT gives:

“In a few instances, individuals guilty of an act of child abuse have been appointed to positions within the congregation if their conduct has been otherwise exemplary for decades. All of the factors are considered carefully. Suppose, for example, that a long time ago a 16-year-old boy had sexual relations with a consenting 15-year-old girl. Depending upon the U.S. jurisdiction where he lived when this happened, elders may have been required to report this as an incident of child abuse. Let us say that 20 years have passed. The child abuse reporting law may have changed; the man may have even married the girl! Both have been living exemplary lives and they are respected. In such a rare case, the man could possibly be appointed to a responsible position within the congregation.”

Bowen stupidly misunderstands and thinks this is talking about "The example given is of two “consenting minors”" Uh... no it's not.

The example ACTUALLY is assuming that the State age of consent is age 16, and the boy has sex with a 15 year old girl. Hence "elders may have been required to report this as an incident of child abuse". It is not an example of two consenting minors!

So, building upon this misunderstanding, he goes on to claim that the WT is lying in its example, saying that such "abusers" would NOT have to wait 20 years to be appointed.

He takes the letter to the BOE stating that a known child molester is NOT "a situation wherein a consenting minor, who is approaching adulthood, has sexual relations with an adult who is a few years older". To prove that the WT does not regard such people as known child molesters, hence they would never have to wait 20 years, and the WT 's example is a pack of lies!

Thus he claims "by their definition this individual would have no need to wait twenty years to be appointed but instead be treated as any other typical transgression of sin."

But he misses the point. The 20 year example was of someone who may have been reported as a perpetrator of "child abuse" (NOT a "known child molester"). Just because they are legally defined as that under the letter of the law, does not mean they should be regarded as a "known child molester" by the congregation. How stupid and unfair that would be.

So he believes - as stupid as this sounds - that this is proof that the WT is being deceptive and that by giving the "20 years" example, they were actually using a type of secret code to convey a secret policy to the elders that they can appoint all kinds of molesters after 20 years! How funny is that?

So based upon this crazy idea he continues:

The facts show they indirectly wanted to show the twenty year policy in writing as a long standing policy on child abusers.

See, he really thinks it was a kind of secret message to the elders! OOoooo!! Its all spies and intrigues!

To argue his case for it being all a cloak-and-dagger secret message to tell the elders that it's OK to appoint any kind of child abuser as an elder or MS, he says:

Do you really believe that consenting minors that have sex would not be appointed for twenty years? It would certainly be a very cruel rule to follow and one that has never been followed by the organization to date. If it were applied as a hard fast rule most current elders would not qualify for appointment as a result.

But he has it all wrong. As I said, it was NEVER an example of "two consenting minors". The 16 year old is over the age of consent, the 15 year old ISN'T. Hence it is technically an act of child abuse under the law.

So from now on he assumes that his stupid misunderstanding is completely true (it really was a secret code!), and asks if the 20 years "really [is] a full twenty years?"

He then tries to present evidence that his imaginary policy of reappointing known child molesters after 20 years may actually be 15 years. Even though this 20 years EXAMPLE is only talking about those who were guilty of child abuse acts under the letter of the law due to bad timing (aka the 16 y/o having sex with 15 y/o in state where age of consent is 16) - NOT known child abusers!

So, he then presents evidence of a case where the WT says a known child abuser could be give "privileges of a minor nature in the congregation" after 15 years if the victim has forgiven him. Obviously this is NOT evidence that known child abusers are appointed as elders or MSs after some time has passed - no, not at all! They can NEVER be appointed.

"Known Child Molesters" are NOT the same as those to whom the 20 year example applies. Those to whom it does apply, in fact, could perhaps be appointed as an elder or MS eventually. (remember, he misunderstands the 20 year example by stupidly thinking its talking about "two consenting minors", arguing its secret code to say any molester can be appointed after 15 or 20 years!)

As the final bit of 'proof', he presents this extract from a WT letter:

“There is one exception to the above direction: The elders may have written to the branch office and given full details about a former child abuser who is currently serving as an elder or ministerial servant. In such a case, if the branch office has decided that he can be appointed or continue serving in a position of trust because the sin occurred many years ago and because he has lived an exemplary life since then, his name should not appear on the List, nor is it necessary to pass on information about the brother’s past sin if he moves to another congregation unless contrary instructions have been given by the branch. If therefore, such an appointed man moves to another congregation a letter confirming the move should be sent, addressed to the Society’s Legal Department.”

Notice that this letter is talking about a "former child abuser", i.e. someone who we could apply the 20-year example to. NOT a "known child molester".

The WT gives its definition of "Known Child Molesters" quite plainly in the 1997 letter to the body of elders, it says:

WHO IS A 'KNOWN CHILD MOLESTER'? ... we are herein discussing sexual perversion in which children are the object of sexual abuse, including fondling by an adult. We are not discussing a situation wherein a consenting minor, who is approaching adulthood, has sexual relations with an adult who is a few years older than the minor. Rather, we are referring, for example, to situations in which it is established by a congregation judicial committee that an adult brother or sister has been guilty of sexually abusing a young child”

So his final bit of 'proof' we mentioned above talking about elders and MSs who are appointed, is talking of men to whom the 20 years example applies. NOT people who are 'known child molesters' as the above letter describes. They can ONLY hope to get "minor privileges" after 15 years, and they can NEVER be MSs or elders! There is no secret policy saying otherwise conveyed in secret code!

The WTS does NOT appoint "known child molesters" to be elders or MSs. The only persons classed as those who committed "child abuse" are those to whom the 20 year example applies, and these are the only persons who will NOT have a letter follow them around for the rest of their lives.

On the other hand, "Known child molesters" WILL have a letter follow them around for all their lives, they can NEVER be MSs or elders, and they MAY be given "minor" responsibilities in the congregation if many years have passed, they are repentant, if its OK with the WT service dept, and most importantly, if the victims/families have forgiven them.

That's it!

43

What is the HIDDEN purpose of the Watchtower corporation?

by Terry in

why does the average man or woman on the street only have a vague awareness of who jehovah's witnesses are and what they stand for?

isn't it weird they know next to nothing after over a hundred years of door to door work???.

ask yourself why this has been such an ineffective ministry.. one actor, tom cruise, has raised more awareness about his own religion (scientology) than all the watchtower magazines placed at a million households.

fresia

Horible life says...

Now that they are selling off real estate in New York and laying off workers, what will be their next investment? They certainly aren't going to give it to special pioneers, and missionaries!! They will fend for themselves.

Hi HL, pleased you bought this point up. Just last week at the TMS we were read a message which required a resolution from the r/f from Bethel, (always bethel, really WTS and GB) it says would be nice to have the missionaries home to their native land for next years International Assembly, it would be nice if we could pay for their fares and accommodation to come home, they added it would only mean around 15cents a day for a year for each and every publisher to contribute, then it said that anyone could donate or sponsor a missionary and give the money to the secretary, and any monies left over from the donations from all the b/s would go toward the world wide work.

Honestly we are giving and giving, surly they must have enough money from all their property and our donations to at least help with these b/s. I don't mind helping any one but I really am peeved at this blatant fleecing, we have four donation box's now, not three, this has all happened since the child molestation payouts, it seems that they are trying to recover any losses. And that is so dishonest because the r/f should know about this, that in itself shows they are grossly dishonest and deviant, I just pray that all this comes out and the b/s can make a choice having the real accurate knowledge about the WTS and its leaders, the GB.

50

Jesus is the Key

by potentialJWconvertswife in

first off, i want to thank you all for being so patient with this newbie, who's become a posting fury!

now to the heart of the matter: jesus.

christians know jesus saves.

fresia

Are JW's baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit??
Yes.

Nvrgnbk,

They do not use that phrase. They are baptized into "God's spirit-directed organization" (or some phrase similiar to that).

They do baptise in the name of Jehovah Jesus and the Holy spirit, it is not as YOU say, please read what the baptism requirments as posted from th org book.

They add and Do you recongnize that your baptism associates you with Gods spirit directed organization, they say yes, when they acctually get dunked they don't say they are baptised in the org.

18

The "bodily reserrection of Christ" doctrine again falls apart under Bible.

by booker-t in

i had once posted on this board that i have been talking to a born-again christian co-worker of mine on the subject of the bodily reserrection of christ doctrine.

i just cannot believe how satan has totally blinded the minds of people with regards to this doctrine.

i have tried just about everything and showed my co-worker every verse that totally destroys the bodily reserrection of christ doctrine (sometimes called the bodily reserrection doctrine) i know the problem is that born-again christians have to hold onto this doctrine because of another false doctrine they teach the "trinity" to explain away scriptures that clearly show jesus is not and has never been equal to jehovah.

fresia

Yes I agree with you entirely Booker T. Born agains will dodge the truth from the bible concerning their God the Trinity.

6

my research into antient hebrews mingling thier blood during covenant......

by grewupJWnoselfesteem78-95 in

in this book, the miriclle of the scarlet thread, richard booker outlines the steps ancient hebrews typically followed in making a covenant: ......they exchanged robes.......they exchanged belts.....cut the convenant.......raised the right hand..........mingled their blood.......exchanged names.....made a scar.....stated the convenant terms.........ate the memorial meal......and planted a tree.

the covenant partners raised their right arms, cut their palms and intermingled their blood, while swearing allegiance to each other.

blood represents life; the intermingling represent two lives becoming one.

fresia

The scriptures you used don't really say that blood was mixed, sometimes I think one can look for things that will support what we may want to think without actually saying so. Like for example (Isaiah 19:19), was used by Russel to say that the Egyptian Pyramid the bible in stone? (19) In that day there will prove to be an altar to Jehovah in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar to Jehovah beside its boundary.

Maybe these cutting of risks and palms to mingle blood was Israelites that left Jehovah, sounds pagan to me.

10

crisis of conscience online?

by Gringa in

i thought i read that someone was reading this book online but can't find the post.

does anyone know if that option is available?

tyia!.

fresia

This is part of the book in review.

http://home.thirdage.com/Religion/donaldkerns/cocchapter7.html

15

How many JW's are leaving the the org each year - is the figure rising?

by Must obey! in

i think i've seen clever posters work out how many leave the organisation each year, or at least stop being 'publishers'.

how many have been leaving each year since 2000?

is the number increasing?.

fresia

There's been around 3million left over 25yrs, and hundreds leave bethel each year just in Australia, but weather they all leave the truth don't know, but some have.

You don't here them encouraging not having babies any more like they used to back in the seventies. The biggest growth now is those bought up and born in the org, and they are encouraged to get baptized earlier than previous years and to make pioneering a career.

I have also noticed that the elders are getting younger and younger, some I find are useless when it comes to empathy and communication one on one, even the older ones in their forties are suss, they just don't have any communication skills.

And of course the women do most of the witnessing and there are more older single women than ever before, these ones are single not by choice but because there are no brothers, its sad, all their lives with no one, no children, its very sad.