i recieved this email today.
i certainly shows another perspective.. how would you respond?.
silentlambs .
It must be remembered that there are instances where it’s handled properly. This should be acknowledged and due credit given where appropriate.
Seeker: “Sadly, what you may not be aware of is that this was rescinded in a later letter to the elders only.”
What letter was that and do you have a copy?
here is one paragraph from the aforementioned talk from the kingdom ministry school.
it talks about the chieftan class.
this is apparently new light from the march 1st 1999 watchtower.
This is has been around for a while. There are many elders who continue to serve just because they imagine they will get to rule in the new order.
hey i have a questio i am a non jw and i would like to marry a jw that is disfelllowshiped because of me any help possible
Dorian:
Indireneed gave you some good advice. Proceed slowly with this one. There is real and ever-present danger that he will return to the fold one day. This is especially so if he has family that’s in there. If and when he does you will not be received kindly by the congregation unless and until you become one of them. If the last part does not seem ‘so bad’ to you, I suggest you visit this board a little longer.
sorry.... i'm chicken shit, ok?.
bwahahahahahaha...
Come on, folks, do we really want to do this?
hi, folks.
gravedancer has invited us to a discussion of a subject upon which rests the credibility of all faith.
i'm responding by posting a 3 part series reflecting some of the research and thought the i've put into it for some decades now.
There was a person once who was told about the dangers of smoking. The elders warned her that if she didn’t stop she would be df’d. Her children pleaded with her to stop. Her aged father contracted emphysema and she withheld cigarettes from him at the end although it really did not good to do so at that stage. She was fully aware of the consequences but she would angrily lash out at anyone who suggested to her that she quit. She said that it was her right and that she loved it and it brought her great pleasure and it was her business and no one had a right to tell her what to do.
The doctors discovered a spot on her lungs one day. He asked her if she smoked. It was lung cancer and it was too late. I was with her in one of those small hospital cubicles with the doctor when he told her that she had a short time left to live, that it was going to be very painful, that she would be gasping for breath a the end, and that there was nothing that could be done about it.
She was so distraught that I had to help her walk back to the car. I cried with her as we walked. She never smoked again but it was too late. She died a horrible death. I watched her gasping for her last breaths of air until she was so tired she simply lacked the strength to draw that last one. She suffocated and died. It was preventable. She could have lived longer. It was my mother.
She would have loved for God to step in and intervene and give her the life that she had treated so carelessly. You see even in situations where we have full control we still do not act responsibly at times to safeguard those precious things given to us by God. Then we turn and mock him and spurn him and mockingly ask where was He when He was needed? We accuse Him of using us for His amusement when He does not respond to our cries for help, for many of us this is the first time that God hears us in the first place. Of course all His pleas for us to search for Him are all ignored. We just want Him to come running to our aid when we get in trouble.
There are many things of which we are warned in Scripture, many things that we choose to simply ignore or rationalize away because we see opportunities there for some pleasure or convenience. If we get ill as a result of some transgression and someone points out that it’s God punishing us for what we did, we get angry and scream out: “You stupid idiot, there’s no God! I just got sick, that’s all!” It never occurs to us that, while what befell us was not direct action by God to punish us for doing what He said we should not, it was the direct result of disobeying a command set in place for our benefit in the first place. It was a warning of the consequences of the evil (lack of good) that lurked and waited to create the void left by good sense to enter in.
Of course we would prefer that God simply remove the evil. But evil is the lack of good and not something that can be removed. It exists in those voids not occupied by good. Oftentimes we are warned of what can cause those voids but we ignore the warning and step into the evil and then we curse God for not have prevented us from entering. Of course we curse him for the warning as well. What is He to do? Perhaps if we were reduced to house pets things would go better for us. After all how many times do we see a goldfish crying or trying to commit suicide for our lack of understanding of his situation? How many times does the little fish curse us for not feeding it on time or not changing the water in his bowl or perhaps for not getting him a bigger bowl in the first place? Yes, we would all be happier as goldfish perhaps. God did not create us this way and has much more in store for us.
We don’t have to believe for God’s will to take place. It will happen. We can find a little more peace of mind and a calmer spirit if we are able to discover that truth, that’s all.
Another story:
The had been repeatedly warned about her excursions into that part of town. She had been warned that walking that section of town, scantily dressed as she was accustomed to being, late at night, was very dangerous. She reminded her friends that she had a right to dress any way that she pleased and that the public sidewalks were just that, public. Once a police officer, officer J., her next door neighbor and friend’s husband, stopped her and made some remark about her presence there and she quickly reminded him that it was her right to be there and it was his job to protect her.
One dark night the lady felt like another excursion so she pranced down the dark street and was promptly assaulted by a gang of hoodlums who also had a right to be there at night. Ironically it was a right theirs that had been defended by a public defender paid, in part, by some of the lady’s tax dollars. The lawyer had feigned great, righteous anger at the police having the audacity to presume that his law-abiding, indigent clients might have mischief in mind. He went on to remind the judge that even if they had something in mind, it was not a crime to think bad thoughts, that it was their right to do so and that unless they actually committed a crime, they should be left to pursue their freedom. It was those free spirits who were now raping and torturing and the lady who was pursuing her freedom to do as she pleased. She screamed out for help.
Some looked out their windows but the attackers were armed and they knew what would happen if they tried to intervene. Someone called the police and soon there was the sound of sirens. The attackers had no fear of sirens and the attack continued. Soon two police officers bounded out of their cruiser and rushed the attackers. There was a scuffle and when it was over, Officer J. lay dead on the dirty pavement, his life’s blood running out into the street.
The lady recovered from the attack in time to make the funeral for her neighbor’s husband. She smiled at the grieving woman and the two small children that sat there. She didn’t stay long, however, she wanted to get home and get dressed and take a walk down town to take her mind off things…after all, there were people out there who’s job it was to insure her the right to go where she pleased.
he will not be late.
when i was a small boy, not wanting to go to school, .
i waited for the school bus, .
He Will Not Be Late
When I was a small boy, not wanting to go to school,
I waited for the school bus,
Hoping that it would not come that day.
But though at times it was late,
Nevertheless it always came.
Now I sit and I wait for the grim reaper,
that harverster of souls,
and though he may tarry,
I well know that he shan't be late for me.
Frenchy
hi, folks.
gravedancer has invited us to a discussion of a subject upon which rests the credibility of all faith.
i'm responding by posting a 3 part series reflecting some of the research and thought the i've put into it for some decades now.
:::In this case, how could a god be the author of the love in a woman's eyes, the frolicking of baby kittens, the beauty of the flowers, and the exquiste design of the universe --- and also be the author of the hideous things we see around us? He would have to be schizoid.:::
It would appear that a number of OT writers, (Job is an example of one) had the view that God sent evil as well as good toward men. From my readings of the Bible I see nothing from God to correct that view they had of him but that does not necessarily mean that they were correct in that assumption.
I do not think that evil is necssary for humans to be happy BUT I do believe that evil is and has been necessary to teach us that goodness comes at a price and that goodness is not automatic. In the process of teaching us something about ourselves and what we are and are not willing to do and/or sacrifice for that good (not only for oneself but the overall good for all of humanity) it teaches us that God is not automatically good either. It teaches us that God is good as a result of sacrifices and concessions and a constant vigilance and effort on his part.
What we humans want is to never suffer while at the same time be free to practice whatever it is that our heart contrives or imagines. We want free freedom. By far and large the greater number of Bible critics (in my experience) are those that are unwilling to accept its moral code and/or other obligations either directly stated in Scripture or implied by principles stated therein. By far and large it is people who profess not to believe in God who mock him and point to the atrocities in the world as justification for not believing in him. The beauties and wonders are chalked up to blind, random forces at work with no intelligent reasoning behind them ...but the wonders and beauties are accidents. I dare say I have a greater problem accepting the latter than accepting the concept of their being a God who, for reasons he has yet to reval to us, allows terrible things to happen.
Evil is not a creation of God but rather the result of what happens when goodness is not present much like darkness is the absence of light, not the other way around. In fact, there is not such THING as darkness, it's only the absence of light. Evil is the absence of goodness.
I allowed my children to experience many unpleasant things in order for them to learn to deal with the more serious things which could cause permanent and irreversible damage. What many fail to realize is that when dealing with God, nothing is irreversible for him. He is the king of eternity and he is omnipotent. The gift of making choices evidently comes only with the full knowledge of the responsibilities associated with it. We want to have our cake and eat it too. We want freedom to make whatever choices we want without anyone (especially God) telling us what to do and at the same time we want it all to end well. I know a couple of people like that. They are constantly getting themselves into a pickle and then the scream for help. As soon as they are extricated from their self-made mire they take off on another tangent and will scoff at any and all advice that they are again headed for yet more trouble.
God does not make the perverts that rape young children. Free choice allows that to happen. Some use it more responsibly than others. God is not to be blamed for how the gift is used.
There are evil things which happen that have nothing to do with people's choices and are thus not to be attributed to that factor. Those things are like the weeds that come up in a garden. No one planted them there and they are not there because someone wanted them there. Weeds happen when the gardener is not diligent in his maintenance of the garden, in the absence of his 'good' work. Evil happens in the world when the forces of good are not being applied in a certain area. The lesson? Good must be ever vigilant in ALL things because evil will encroach upon ANY and ALL areas of our world where good does not specifically reside.
i remember, i remember .
the fir-trees dark and high; .
i used to think their slender tops .
I remember, I remember
The fir-trees dark and high;
I used to think their slender tops
Were close against the sky;
It was a childish ignorance,
But now 't is little joy
To know I 'm farther off from heaven
Than when I was a boy.
--Thomas Hood
define spirituality if you can.. what does the society mean when they talk of being spiritual?.
all i could figure out is just someone who follows the rules.. so if there is no god is spirituality meaning less or something still desirable?
Spirituality: The state, quality, manner, or fact of being spiritual.
Spiritual: 1. Consisting of spirit; not material; incorporeal; as, a spiritual substance or being.
It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. --1 Cor. xv. 44.
2. Of or pertaining to the intellectual and higher endowments of the mind; mental; intellectual.
3. Of or pertaining to the moral feelings or states of the soul, as distinguished from the external actions; reaching and affecting the spirits.
God's law is spiritual; it is a transcript of the divine nature, and extends its authority to the acts of the soul of man. --Sir T. Browne.[/]
4. Of or pertaining to the soul or its affections as influenced by the Spirit; controlled and inspired by the divine Spirit; proceeding from the Holy Spirit; pure; holy; divine; heavenly-minded; -- opposed to carnal.
[i]That I may impart unto you some spiritual gift. --Rom. i. ll
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings. --Eph. i. 3.
If a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one. --Gal. vi. 1.
5. Not lay or temporal; relating to sacred things; ecclesiastical; as, the spiritual functions of the clergy; lords spiritual and temporal; a spiritual corporation.
---Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.
i'm wondering if any of you ex elders ever felt embarrassed or awkward about having to stick your noses into other peoples business did it ever seem like that to you, or were you of the mind that you were a necessary part of the lives of the flock?
.
marilyn
Marilyn:
There were times when people came up to me and told me about their problems and I was able to help them cope. Of course, that happens outside the JW world as well and I'm always happy to be able to assist someone.
There were times, however, when people came up to me because I was an elder and told me things I really preferred not knowing, both about themselves and about other people as well. This was always very disturbing to me. I found out something about a friend of mine that to this day I wish I did not know. I found out something about a couple of relatives of mine (because I was an elder) that I wish I did not know. There was a situation with an elderly sister that I love very much that till today still troubles me, something that may or may not be true but now that it's in my mind, I can't shake it.
I have many times been embarrassed at having to approach (especially sisters) someone to ask them if such and such a thing was true because there had been an accusation made. I had many friends in the congregation (still do) and from time to time I have had to approach these people about some very personal things that changed our relationship to each other from that point on.
There is another facet to this thing that some may not realize. I'm no longer serving as an elder and I go to the meetings only to keep in touch with my friends still there. There are some that I never did like and still don't. I know a lot of things about those people as well. Since I am no longer an elder I wonder if some of those people who have disclosed deep, dark, very personal secrets about themselves, think that I may start blabbing about it. I would not but is it a fear in their minds now?
I would also like to point out that I many times found out things about people that I never breathed a word about it to the other elders. I chalked it up as personal weaknesses and no one's business but their own. I know some things about certain people right now that would warrant a judicial committee meeting immediately. I will not say a thing although every one of them would quickly run and tattle on me in an instant if they thought they had something against me they could use. One in particular has, in the past, even fabricated things against me. Yet, what I know about this person could mean his ousting from the organization if I were inclined to tell.
As an elder I was conditioned and trained to think that my role was important to the maintaining of a clean congregation, a congregation of which Jehovah would approve. In the end I saw things differently but it was difficult to change old ways of thinking.
BTW, that was a good question! It made be go back and think about some things.
