GinnyTosken

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Posts by GinnyTosken

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  41

  "The Day The Music Died"

  by Farkel in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  in 1972 the great irish balladeer don mcclean introduced the song "american pie.

  " it was and still is a classic.

  the song is full of symbolism and even to this day almost thirty years after the song was first introduced, mcclean will not reveal the real meanings behind much of that symbolism.. in that song, he sings about "the day the music died.

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  GinnyTosken

  For Closer2fine and anyone else interested,

  Here is the "American Pie" FAQ:

  http://www.faqs.org/faqs/music/american-pie/

  Ginny
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  41

  "The Day The Music Died"

  by Farkel in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  in 1972 the great irish balladeer don mcclean introduced the song "american pie.

  " it was and still is a classic.

  the song is full of symbolism and even to this day almost thirty years after the song was first introduced, mcclean will not reveal the real meanings behind much of that symbolism.. in that song, he sings about "the day the music died.

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  GinnyTosken

  Farkel,

  I was of the Buddy Holly school until I read your post.

  Please do tell.

  Ginny
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  126

  AMAZING - Exposing Elders (re: Expose Ave...

  by AMNESIAN in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  replying to:.

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=17880&site=3.

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=17923&site=3.

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  GinnyTosken

  I have been thinking over the posts between Amazing and Amnesian for several days. From what I see, the issue at the heart of this is getting muddied by the battle mentality--Amazing vs. Amnesian, elders vs. rank and file, men vs. women, etc.

  After reading the exchanges, my questions are: What harm did I cause while I was one of Jehovah's Witnesses? Whom did I influence? Whose lives were affected by the way I chose to live my life? How liable am I for the harm caused to others?

  I haven't commented much until now because the questions are difficult ones. I also balk at considering the questions of blame and liability because I consider them rather futile. I would rather work towards cleaning up the damage than on pinpointing blame. At the same time, I know that two of the twelve steps for alcoholics are:

  8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

  9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

  While mulling these questions, I tried to mentally step away from the example of the Watchtower Society and consider corporations in general. When corporations cause damage, who is responsible, liable? If I cause harm to others by my job, who is liable? Me? My supervisor? The company?

  This is not easy to decide. Sometimes corporations are prosecuted; sometimes individuals within companies are prosecuted; sometimes it is a combination of both. It all depends on the circumstances.

  Also at the heart of this issue is what one believes about the organization and one's intent in staying in the organization. Buddhist philosophy has been helpful to me in weighing the nuances of knowledge, perception, doubt, intention, carefulness, and awareness. Buddhism also has a teaching about "right livelihood."

  Here is a link to an article called "Vinaya Principles for Assigning Degrees of Culpability" by Peter Harvey:

  http://jbe.la.psu.edu/6/harvey991.htm

  None of us can look into the heart of another and know their intent. Neither can we know exactly where any other person is along the spectrum of belief/disbelief in Jehovah's Witness doctrine. Without this knowledge, I am loath to cast stones.

  Whatever standards I use to judge elders, I feel I must first use to judge myself. If a "good elder" perpetuates the myth that the WTS is God's organization, I think a "good publisher" does the same. What varies is the degree of influence each may have.

  When it comes to doling out blame for remaining one of Jehovah's Witnesses, I largely blame myself and my desire for simple answers, security, a sense of belonging, and immortality in paradise.

  This is from the French report of December 22, 1995, "Cults in France":

  Plusieurs interlocuteurs de la Commission ont mis en évidence ce paradoxe : l'originalité des groupes sectaires réside dans le fait que, notamment lors du processus aboutissant à l'adhésion, la victime est acteur. Un certain parallélisme peut être établi avec la démarche des toxicomanes : " Nous avons des controverses avec les parents de toxicomanes. Ceux-ci pensent - d'une certaine façon à juste titre - que sans l'horrible dealer leur enfant serait un ange. Ils oublient les neuf dixièmes du trajet qu'a parcouru le malheureux enfant, responsable ou non, mais de son fait, pour se rendre dans les bras dudit dealer. Il ne faut pas exclure la part volontaire de l'adepte, qui n'est pas un imbécile que l'on manipulerait - c'est vous et moi --, mais (...) qui s'est rendu délibérément." Dans cette optique, les recruteurs des sectes ont pu être présentés comme des "dealers de transcendance." A cet égard, une image utilisée par une personne entendue par la Commission paraît particulièrement apte à faire comprendre le caractère conscient de la démarche du futur adepte: "les sectes ne sont pas un filet qui s'abat sur des gens, mais une nasse dans laquelle ils se rendent."

  Several speakers to the Commission highlighted this paradox: what is odd about cultish groups is that, particularly during the process leading to adhesion, the victim is an actor [actor in the literal sense of one who acts, one who does, is not a passive victim]. Certain comparisons can be made with the stages of drug addicts: "We have debates with the parents of drug addicts. The parents think--in a certain way rightly--that without the horrible dealer their child would be an angel. They forget the nine tenths of the way that the unhappy child traversed, responsible or not, but of his own will, to go into the arms of the aforesaid dealer. One should not forget the voluntary share of the follower, who is not an imbecile that one would manipulate--it is you and me--, but (...) who went deliberately." Accordingly, the recruiters of the sects could be introduced as "dealers of transcendence." In this respect, an image used by a person heard by the Commission appears particularly apt to illustrate the conscious character of the step of the future follower: "Cults are not a net that falls down on people, but a lobster trap into which they swim."

  Ginny
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  6

  OM Book on-line?

  by Thirdson in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  a question: does anyone know if the om book (organized to accomplish our ministry) is available on line.

  i am particularly interested in the 80 questions and anything to do with elder ms qualifications.

  i lost mine several years ago when i stripped down my library to a small number of books and the cd-rom.. i'd be willing to buy a hard copy and cover the shipping costs if anyone has a spare.. thanks,.

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  GinnyTosken

  Thirdson,

  I have not seen the OM book online.

  You can buy a hard copy at Randy Watters' site:

  http://www.freeminds.org/sales/booksale.htm

  I'd be glad to scan a few pages from my copy if you're eager to get on with your research.

  Ginny
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  22

  Why Bad Beliefs Don't Die

  by CPiolo in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  for those of you interested in why your rational arguments and reasoning, in addition to well documented information do little to sway the beliefs of true believers (family, friends, and loved ones), the reason as offered in the following article is survival.. http://www.csicop.org/si/2000-11/beliefs.html.

  offered humbly for your perusal,.

  cpiolo.

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  GinnyTosken

  Bringing this back to the top of "active view" for those who might have missed it first time around.

  Ginny
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  15

  Will we ever find the magic bullet.

  by sleepy in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  lets just face it humans are odd.. nearly all here are proof of it.. we were able at one time to believe so fully in an idea that we gave our lives to it , and now we dont.. although this subject has been discussed many times before it is something that frustrates me , big time.. well we all at one time thought we knew it all.

  the meaning of life the real history of human kind why we die why there is suffering and many more of lifes mysteries were plain and simple to us.. gradually came the realisation that things were not as we had thought.. what was once so obvious was now so obviously wrong.. so how do humans manage to believe fervently on issues that to others make no sense?.

  is there a magic explanation or piece of logic that can convince any witness with a functioning mind the error of their beliefs?.

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  GinnyTosken

  Sleepy,

  CPiolo posted a link to an article called "Why Bad Beliefs Don't Die" shortly before you joined the board:

  http://www.csicop.org/si/2000-11/beliefs.html

  The original thread is here:

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=7798&site=3

  Here is a small quote from the article:

  First, skeptics must not expect beliefs to change simply as the result of data or assuming that people are stupid because their beliefs don't change. They must avoid becoming critical or demeaning in response to the resilience of beliefs. People are not necessarily idiots just because their beliefs don't yield to new information. Data is always necessary, but it is rarely sufficient.
  
  Second, skeptics must learn to always discuss not just the specific topic addressed by the data, but also the implications that changing the related beliefs will have for the fundamental worldview and belief system of the affected individuals. Unfortunately, addressing belief systems is a much more complicated and daunting task than simply presenting contradictory evidence. Skeptics must discuss the meaning of their data in the face of the brain's need to maintain its belief system in order to maintain a sense of wholeness, consistency, and control in life. Skeptics must become adept at discussing issues of fundamental philosophies and the existential anxiety that is stirred up any time beliefs are challenged. The task is every bit as much philosophical and psychological as it is scientific and data-based.

  I agree with you and Radar--reasoning alone is generally not enough. The hearer/reader has to be emotionally ready and courageous enough to make a huge paradigm shift.

  Ginny
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  24

  Mr Dedalus, married man

  by dedalus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  foxy and i were married this sunday in a small ceremony before family & friends.

  yippie!.

  an observation: we hired a justice of the peace more or less at random from the phone book.

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  GinnyTosken

  Oh, dear! People marrying and being given in marriage--a sure sign that the end is near!

  Best wishes to both you and Foxy, Dedalus.

  Ginny
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  1

  The Pagan Icon, Outhouses and Vindication

  by Dogpatch in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the pagan icon.

  dear randy, .

  well we got that new computer we was talkin' about for about the last ten years or so.

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  GinnyTosken

  Thanks for sharing, Randy! I think Armaggedon Okies are my favorite part of bein' ex-JW, and I hadn't read these before.

  The outhouse story is especially poignant for me since my grandma tried to hide in the outhouse from the Witnesses when they came up the road. They musta thought at first it was a not-at-home 'cause they banged on the door to the outhouse and made Grandma come out.
  
  Ginny, goin' back to clickin' them pagan icons
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  53

  First Post Musings

  by Perry in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this is my first post and i must say that i have been lurking here from time to time and have been impressed with the content.

  back in college i visited the old h2o site many times and this is definitely superior.

  thanks to all for the rich content i've been enjoying.. my great mother was a witness making me a fourth generation.

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  GinnyTosken

  Hello, Perry,

  Do you write?

  Yes.

  Did you used to post on H2O years ago?

  Yes.

  but I still think you should have broken your own god-damn window when you were locked out of the apartment,

  So, why'd you break SixofNine's window, anyway? This sounds like the beginning of a good story.

  Ginny
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  11

  new guy

  by outonalimb in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  as a new guy, i would like to tell you a little about myself.

  i joined.

  after lurking for several weeks.

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  GinnyTosken

  Hi, Outonalimb!

  I'm curious--were you ever a JW? If not, how did you happen to find this discussion board?

  Ginny