Posts by GinnyTosken

1

Scandal & Cover-ups

by GinnyTosken in

simon,.

thank you for placing all of the un information in one forum.

this new arrangment is truly a blessing from .

GinnyTosken

Simon,

Thank you for placing all of the UN information in one forum. This new arrangment is truly a blessing from . . . Ooops, old programming. Sorry.

At the risk of being considered one of Miriam class, I would like to mention that "Cover-up's" in the new forum title is incorrect. That is the possessive form; the plural would be "Cover-ups." I am impressed that you hyphenated "cover-ups."

Also, if you're thinking of the pedophilia issue, I think that would more accurately be described as child molestation rather than child abuse. For me at least, child abuse has the connotation of child beating. Molestation makes it clearer that this is about sexual abuse.

Schoolmarm Ginny

[Edited to add comment about abuse vs. molestation.]

8

German Radio Interview

by silentlambs in

i was sent this interview from may of this year.

notice how the brother used the analogy of a child molester to describe df.

the thought would carry if the person appeared to be repentant what would be the action then?

GinnyTosken

Intriguing interview, SilentLambs! Thanks for sharing!

I'm so happy to read this new light from Brother Klar:

If I were saying today that I do no longer want to be a Witness, that I want to leave the Kingdom Hall, nothing would happen to me. My brothers would speak to me, they would visit me and ask why I do no longer want to be a Witness ...

Of course, this only applies if you leave quietly:

If I were actively working against the denomination and not keeping critical thoughts for myself but were making statements in the public, then this would have a different dimension.

I wonder how those who left Catholic and Protestant churches would have felt if they had been shunned by their families and friends for voicing the critical statements about these churches published in the Watchtower and Awake!? When my parents and relatives were studying, they were greatly impressed by the encouragement to research and ask questions of priests and clergymen. They believed the truth would speak for itself. It appears that the voice of "truth" is not as able to withstand criticism and questioning as it once was.

While Professor Besier, a theologian at the Heidelberg University, calls for tolerance, Jehovah's Witnesses demean the efforts of the Catholic Church to repent, confess, and reform. I don't think the Society realizes how they have painted themselves into a corner with comments such as these:

The fact is, though, that until quite recently, admission of guilt by religions was the exception rather than the rule. In 1832, in response to some who were urging the Catholic Church to 'regenerate itself,' Gregory XVI said: "It is obviously absurd and injurious to propose a certain 'restoration and regeneration' for [the church's] safety and growth, as if she could be considered subject to defect." What of defects that were too blatant to be denied? Various strategies were adopted to explain them away. For example, some theologians have maintained that the church is both holy and sinful. The institution itself is said to be holy-preserved from error by God. Still, its members are sinful. Thus, when atrocities are committed in the name of the church, the institution itself should not be held responsible, but individuals within the church should be. Does that sound logical?
. . . In a similar vein, historian Alberto Melloni, when commenting on the church's requests for forgiveness, writes: "In reality, what is sometimes asked for is a reprieve from accusations of responsibility." Yes, the Catholic Church seems to be trying to shrug off the burden of past sins in order to regain its credibility in the court of public opinion. In all honesty, though, it must be said that it seems more concerned with making peace with the world than with God.
Such behavior reminds us of Saul, the first king of Israel. (1 Samuel 15:1-12) He committed a grievous error, and when this was exposed, he first tried to justify himself-explain away his error-to Samuel, a faithful prophet of God. (1 Samuel 15:13-21) Finally, the king had to acknowledge to Samuel: "I have sinned; for I have overstepped the order of Jehovah." (1 Samuel 15:24, 25) Yes, he admitted his fault. But his next words to Samuel reveal what was uppermost on his mind: "I have sinned. Now honor me, please, in front of the older men of my people and in front of Israel." (1 Samuel 15:30) Evidently, Saul was more concerned with his standing in Israel than with being reconciled with God. This attitude did not result in God's forgiveness of Saul. Do you think a similar attitude will result in God's forgiveness of the churches?
[bolding mine]
w98 3/1 "Why Are They Asking Forgiveness?" p 5

Will the Society be more concerned with its public standing than being reconciled with God? It will be interesting to see.

Ginny

1

Shouldn't that be "Crazy"......

by SixofNine in

jw
friends

crazy_fatjackmccracken, that is.

GinnyTosken

Who is Crazy Fat Jack McCracken? Is he related to this Jack McCracken?

http://www.chickenhead.com/features/dirty/index2.html

Ginny

15

Worth

by joelbear in

jw
friends

following up on my self esteem thread, i have been doing some thinking about worth and self worth and what makes people worth something.. how do you define worth?.

everybody's worth can be defined monetarily by how many assets he/she owns but those are not the person's worth, they are they worth of what they own.. to the world in general, each individual is not worth much.

i would say that the amount of worth is infinitesimal when put up against 6 billion humans (not counting the trillions of other living entities alive at any one point in time) and then also put up against all the humans that have ever lived.. its hard to compare your worth to einstein, newton, salk and a handful of others whose lives have actually shifted the human experience positively.

GinnyTosken

Joelbear,

One more thought--

You might try writing as a form of meditation and a means to learn to trust your thoughts, feelings, and ideas. I myself found this extremely helpful. It also meshed well with cognitive therapy, in which you listen to your self-talk, evaluate the validity of what you say to yourself, and talk back to yourself if necessary.

If you'd like to try this, I highly recommend Natalie Goldberg's Writing Down the Bones and Julia Cameron's The Artist's Way. There are even groups on Yahoo who work through the lessons in The Artist's Way together.

I'll leave you with this quotation from Natalie Goldberg's Writing Down the Bones:

In Zen meditation you sit on a cushion called a zafu with your legs crossed, back straight, hands at your knees or in front of you in a gesture called a mudra. You face a white wall and watch your breath. No matter what you feel--great tornadoes of anger and resistance, thunderstorms of joy and grief--you continue to sit, back straight, legs crossed, facing the wall. You learn not to be tossed away no matter how great the thought or emotion. That is the discipline of continuing to sit.
The same is true in writing. You must be a great warrior when you contact first thoughts and write from them. Especially at the beginning you may feel great emotions and energy that will sweep you away, but you don't stop writing. You continue to use your pen and record the details of your life and penetrate into the heart of them. Often in the beginning class students break down crying when they read pieces they have written. That is okay. Often as they write they cry, too. However, I encourage them to continue reading or writing right through the tears so they may come out the other side and not be thrown off by the emotion. Don't stop at the tears; go through to truth. This is the discipline.

Ginny

15

Worth

by joelbear in

jw
friends

following up on my self esteem thread, i have been doing some thinking about worth and self worth and what makes people worth something.. how do you define worth?.

everybody's worth can be defined monetarily by how many assets he/she owns but those are not the person's worth, they are they worth of what they own.. to the world in general, each individual is not worth much.

i would say that the amount of worth is infinitesimal when put up against 6 billion humans (not counting the trillions of other living entities alive at any one point in time) and then also put up against all the humans that have ever lived.. its hard to compare your worth to einstein, newton, salk and a handful of others whose lives have actually shifted the human experience positively.

GinnyTosken

Worth is the measure of how much something is valued.

My treasures may be your trash and vice versa.

Several years ago, when I was emerging from the JW world and struggling with depression, I read in a book about an exercise in living eulogies. The book suggested you gather several close friends and ask them to write down three things they treasure about you. You do the same for them and exchange the notes.

The exercise surprised me very much. Some of the qualities that endeared me to my friends I had viewed as weaknesses or failings. Other qualities were so spontaneous that I was not even aware of them. One friend wrote, "She has capable hands."

Mommie Dark's words are very wise. We are individuals yet all life is interdependent. As a JW, I judged my worth based almost entirely on what I was able to do for others. If I felt tired and sad and needed to withdraw into quiet contemplation, I felt guilty and worthless. I now respect sad and stormy times as part of the cycle of life. I accept them as I do the changing of seasons and the phases of the moon.

Trust yourself, Joelbear. Listen to yourself and allow yourself to be needy. It is difficult, I know. I still struggle with asking for help and admitting that I sometimes crave to crawl onto the lap of someone wiser and stronger than me, to have a good cry, to have this person stroke my hair and comfort me with, "There, there. It will be all right. It will be all right. You just rest for awhile."

Many of us here value you. I hope you learn to value yourself. The Norwegians have a lovely phrase: Takk for at du finnes til.Thank you for being.

Ginny

9

Do You Possess The "flag" In Your Life?

by silentlambs in

jw
friends

i recently watched a movie about a struggle for survival.

the story was set in a military prison where a recently incarcerated general led an uprising against a cruel and murderous colonel who happened to be the warden of the prison.

the general on newly arriving wanted nothing to do with dissidents saying he had fought all the wars he wanted to.

GinnyTosken

Silentlambs,

I like your analogy of the flag.

The “flag” in my opinion stands for honor and integrity. . . . It is honor and integrity the organization attacks whenever you get crossways with anything the WT tries to force you to do. They strip you of all self-respect and make you feel you are worthless without them. Yet the honor you have as a person and the integrity you exhibit toward all you come in contact with in life show you to be beyond WT control. When you keep your honor and integrity, in effect you win the battle, you win control of your life.

A quotation from Eleanor Roosevelt naturally leaps to mind:

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."

So I ask a question, are you in possession of the “flag” in your life? If not then WT will always have the upper hand and will beat you down with self-destructive behavior. You have to break free of the programming, seize the real truth that you are what you think. What you think of yourself, your family and how you interact with others will show whether you possess in your character the honor and integrity WT has tried to destroy. If you feel at loss with this, do what ever it takes to get it back, use therapy, medication, or perhaps a little patience and time to heal. In the end, to live your life with honor and integrity will make you proud of who you are and of great value to those that are part of your life.

This is so very true. I hate to mix movies, but it reminds me a bit of The Wizard of Oz. Each of us has "ruby slippers" and the ability to go "home" to honesty and integrity whenever we wish. Most of us did not know we had the power. For me personally it took two years of therapy and reading to rediscover my power and learn to be true to myself. Now I feel that I fly my flag more boldly than I ever have in my life.

Thanks for a very thoughtful post.

Ginny

20

An Antidote To 'Screen Sickness'.

by hillary_step in

jw
friends

a post by you know, our local hero, that was basically filled with speculative nonsense and an eccentric interpretation of scripture has gone on, as of this moment, to generate almost 300 messages, and has been viewed over 5,400 times.

an alarming waste of time imho.. as a result of this our lawns have overgrown, our families have been neglected, the parrot is losing its feathers due to starvation and the real world has passed us by with an understandable glare in our direction.. yes, screen sickness; that desire to converse ad nasuem with digital acquaintances whose eyes ( or in yks case eye ) we have never seen, has spread greedily among us.

in his wonderful essay on painting as a pastime, winston churchill gave some excellent advise for those who find their concentration becoming obsessed or overwrought, he said:.

GinnyTosken

Hillary_Step,

I get an enforced three-day sabbatical each week while I'm at work. I work in another town, unloading boxes at a warehouse, and my workmates are primarily interested in Nascar, car trading, and deer hunting.

It is a refreshing change of scenery. Last weekend, a box of toilet plungers broke open, and one of my coworkers put two of the red rubber bottoms under his shirt and drove around on his fork lift telling we girls, "Eat your hearts out." The weekend before that, a tent was on display as part of a raffle. Two men wandered in to check it out. While they were inside, another man zipped up the door from the outside. About 30 of us coming back from lunch looked on in amusement. Two men alone together in a tent--imagine the implications! No concerns about political correctness here.

I listen to a classic rock station while I work, let my mind wander, and enjoy the simple pleasure of physical exertion. My shifts are twelve hours long, beginning at 6:30 a.m., so by the time I return to my sister's house, I am exhausted. Most of the time I have a little bite to eat, take a long shower, and go directly to bed.

On Saturdays, I listen to Prairie Home Companion on the way home.

By the time I return to my own house on Monday evenings, the tension is gone and the concerns of the board seem small and far away. The board has gone on without me for three days, and I am reminded that it is my daily choice to read and to reply. Whenever I wish, I may leave it alone and say nothing.

Ginny

P.S. You recently posted a quotation about how we'd be less inclined to judge a person harshly if we understood their background and personal struggles. I wish I had copied it. Would you mind posting it again or e-mailing it to me?

42

just another religion

by teejay in

jw
friends

patriotism is a religion just like every other religion.

either you believie it and live it or you don't.. i see people waving the flag at sporting events, hear them mouthing the words, "we're all one nation, blah, blah, blah" but then they go out and flip one another off in the parking lot.

just like people at the kingdom hall who supposedly love jehovah (or jesus or allah) and after the meeting is over, they go right back to the way they were.. love of country is no more influential than love of god.

GinnyTosken

Rex,

Oops, I thought you made a mistake and were talking to me.

Never mind.

Ginny

11

Why Do Muslims Come To The U.S.?

by TR in

jw
friends

in the town i live in, there are many male arabic students that come here for an education.

but is that really their reason for coming?

or, are they here to taste the freedom that the u.s. provides?

GinnyTosken

TR,

I worked for a program at Indiana University that was part of International Programs. The program enabled Malaysian students (mostly Muslim) to study in the U.S. and also sent professors to Malaysia to help with the shortage of professors there.

These students wanted to attend universities that had strong programs in their fields of interest. Many areas of specialized research are only available outside of Malaysia. I would imagine the same is true in the Arabic world.

While I worked for the program, about 2,000 students came over each year. Some of them went wild with credit cards and partying and had to be sent home. Most of the students were very serious about their studies and did quite well. The percentage of Malaysian wild ones appeared no different from the percentage of American students who come to IU and become party animals.

These exchange programs are designed to foster understanding and cooperation between nations. These students spend years studying English and learning about American culture and history.

I am pleased that the response in my community has not been driven by fear and prejudice. This is from the Indiana Daily Student of Tuesday, September 25. I especially like the day when Muslims and non-Muslims wore a hijab or kufi:

As Muslims in Bloomington and around the country braced for backlash following the terrorist attacks two weeks ago, what they weren't prepared for was the outpouring of community support. . . .
Some students have been attacked or verbally harassed, but more people have shown understanding, said senior Sohaib Sultan. . . .
Bilal, along with Kathryn Bryan, a continuing studies student, organized a buddy system for Muslims wanting an escort to and from classes. She said they received hundreds of e-mails from people wanting to help. Bryan said the response was so overwhelming that she couldn't respond to each one individually.
But, that's not all. Last week, Muslims and non-Muslims participated in a solidarity event by wearing the hijab or the kufi, a head covering Muslim women and men wear.
The Religious Studies Department also sponsored an event about Islam last Wednesday and more than 300 people showed up at Ballantine Hall. The turnout was so huge that the room couldn't hold everyone and 200 people were turned away, said moderator Kevin Jaques, a religious studies professor. Last weekend, churches invited Muslims to speak about their religion. More discussions are planned for later this week and month.

Ginny

42

just another religion

by teejay in

jw
friends

patriotism is a religion just like every other religion.

either you believie it and live it or you don't.. i see people waving the flag at sporting events, hear them mouthing the words, "we're all one nation, blah, blah, blah" but then they go out and flip one another off in the parking lot.

just like people at the kingdom hall who supposedly love jehovah (or jesus or allah) and after the meeting is over, they go right back to the way they were.. love of country is no more influential than love of god.

GinnyTosken

Tdogg,

**Why do people hate? I believe the indoctrination comes first.**
Maybe, but wouldn't that imply that if there was no religion there would be no hatred?

Indoctrination doesn't have to be religious. You can see in the quotation from the WAR youth leader that he was indoctrinated to believe that minorities were a threat to his way of life. He was taught to fear and hate them.

Religion can foster hate because many religions divide people into righteous and unrighteous, which breeds the prejudice that leads to hate. When people are taught to believe that only their way is the right way, they lose a great deal of tolerance and willingness to understand. Some religions teach people to hate what God hates, which somehow makes hate acceptable.

This article shows the mixed messages Jehovah's Witnesses receive about hate:

http://www.freeminds.org/h2o/264947.html

People interpret their religions in different ways, and many religious people are loving and tolerant.

People have a strong psychological need to create enemies, and I'm not sure this would end if there were no religions. I imagine folks would group themselves under different banners--political, ideological, national. There would still be people who fear and paint outsiders as evil. I think that there would be less hate without the strong motivation and dividing force of religion.

Ginny