Posts by LayingLow

33

2 Special Pioneers 1 Missionary sick with Chronic fatigue- Quit Ministry!

by Witness 007 in

2 special pioneers i knew were at the assembly last year i wanted to know how they were since they have special pioneered for 20 years.

both got sick and have chronic fatigue.

they quit pioneering to rest and get better.

LayingLow

There was a tremendously high number of Fibromialgia cases in our hall. Everyone had depression and fibromialgia it seemed. I don't think that it is not real. But I do think it is an unprovable thing that gets you out of the JW routine in one of the only 'legitimate' ways possible. The frequency at which those two things strike JW's is phenomenal. Actually, outside of JWs, I rarely hear about it (I recognize the possible lurking variables such as people suffering from these things not being as social, etc...) Yet still I believe that the norm has to be less than 1 in 3 women having one of the two or both.

16

Are you mostly disappointed in the WTS beliefs,doctrines,or practices?

by RULES & REGULATIONS in

i'm here on jwd because of the watchtower's practice of disfellowshipping.

that's is one pratice that really made me question if i really wanted to continue as a member.

i always thought that by kicking the disfellowshipped or disassociated out of the kingdom hall was enough.

LayingLow

For me it is completely the doctrine. I expected abuse of authority and slander etc.. with any group of humans. The fact that they destroy the sonship with God that Jesus offers by setting up a two part system of Christians then denying the one class salvation by grace, forgiveness now, and receipt of the Holy Spirit is what I can't deal with. The sole channel to God thing also grated on me, too. Where's the proof? The apostles had signs to prove God had changed his favor to Christians, and according to the WTS those who rejected them will still get a resurrection. Now, supposedly, there is a group with a history of false predictions who if you don't listen to them you will be destroyed forever. I can't buy that.

12

Should I register to vote?

by tinker in

i have been asking myself this for several months now.

i have no idea even how to do it.

but since leaving the wtbs i have a new interest in the political process.

LayingLow

Since you've never voted before you may have to register to vote in the primary in order to be able to vote in the election in November (I know it is at least the case in the state I live in.)

23

Why make prophecies cryptic?

by LtCmd.Lore in

ok, this thread is not about whether or not the bible prophecies are valid.

i just want to know why god would inspire a prophecy about a giant tree, bowls of anger, seven headed animals, the moon turning to blood, the sun going dark, the sea turning to blood, everything else turning to blood multiple times.. counting things in days when he actually means years, using 'times' which don't meen anything.

symbolizing rulers with trees, horns and mountains.

LayingLow

I remember as JW thinking that each facet of symbolism offered in the Bible was somehow necessary for my salvation, and that if I couldn't figure out who the seven headed dragon of Revelation was, then I couldn't have life. I don't wish to reduce the good news, but the believing in Jesus as the Son of God and having love for your fellow man seems to be plainly obvious. They are not hidden behind symbolism, and they are what it says is required for salvation. See 1 John or John 21. Beyond that, accurate interpretation of symbolism would seem beneficial but I can hardly see how it is essential. Therefore, I don't see God as offering salvation through a cartoon or other literary device but showing it plainly to all and allowing greater understanding for those who seek deeper things from his spirit through understanding of prophetic symbolism.

23

Recurring nightmares of getting busted by elders, anyone???

by Hermano in

the last week or so, i've had recurring dreams of elders coming after either me or my wife (who is still a believer).

for example, i dreamt elders were accusing us of being apostates and were demanding a meeting with us.

they were citing lack of regular meeting attendance as the reason for their suspicions.

LayingLow

I have had similar dreams lately. Someone mentioned being smacked up by elderettes and maybe it was the same person who mentioned finding yourselves in an elders house. I had a dream the other day where I climbed up steps (basement) of an elders house and found myself face to face with an elderette. She instantly began smacking me up. So weird... Basically the dreamed continued with tons of people I knew giving me an ashamed/judgmental look.

I don't know about your dream recently, but I think mine was triggered. I ran into someone from the hall and it was rather uncomfortable. I caught the ashamed/judgmental look. I think how people feel about me affects me quite a bit (it's what kept me in so long despite knowing things were wrong). I really love some of the people in the org, and my instant reaction is to feel like I owe them something. That's true with anyone that I know though. I have to pause and consider the biblical, ethical, and moral principles involved instead of instantly seeking to please them. Once I've recaptured clear thinking unswayed by emotion, its a clear choice never to go back. I think I feel the most guilty however because I don't set them straight. At this point, it would cost me more than I care to lose.

59

Do you ever miss it? Ever?

by AK - Jeff in

for me - rarely would be the correct word.

i don't miss the indoctrination.

i don't miss the wasted time in service.

LayingLow

The social aspects, yes. The actual religious doctrine, no. I remember when I was 'active' that I could almost sense there were two religions existing simultaneously. I had many friends in the JW's that were not particularly religious (in the meeting attendance and lots of hours in field service category). Still they held the beliefs but we just hung out because we trusted each other. I miss that part. But that doesn't make me sit around and mope. What I've realized is that if you can create that type of atmosphere (I think it was locally rather than organization wide) with some false doctrine and no toleration of alternate opinions, how much better of an atmosphere can you create with toleration and the freedom to express what you believe to be true. I try to create that atmosphere everywhere I go.

I think one of the key elements to the socialization of the JW's is shared experiences. Marines have a bond because of boot camp. Survivors of tragic events have shared experiences that draw them closer. JW's have a bond because of 5+ hours together every week with similar routine along with shared reading materials and activities (service). Any time you can get yourself involved with a group that results in shared experiences, I think you will find a closer bond. Hopefully they are positive shared experiences.

7

two part question (s)

by bite me in

hi, i hope everyone had a nice weekend!.

okay, to my two questions.

i figure i do it this way, because it's annoying to post something and realize i wanted to do another post, but couldn't.

LayingLow

I just wanted to thank you Aniron for adding that. I found the link very helpful. Two kinds of faith, ascentia and fiducia, interesting.

7

two part question (s)

by bite me in

hi, i hope everyone had a nice weekend!.

okay, to my two questions.

i figure i do it this way, because it's annoying to post something and realize i wanted to do another post, but couldn't.

LayingLow

I know nothing about #1. About #2 I just have some comments.

During my time as a JW I remember pondering the faith/works thing. I still do not believe it's a simple open and shut case. The Jews had works of law, that if they could live up to they would get saved. In their minds many had no faith in God but tried to get away with doing these outward works of piety thinking that they would deserve everlasting life. Since no one can uphold that law perfectly, it was weak, and was replaced. It made no one perfect.

Abraham lived before law as did Noah. They were men of faith. Men of faith had no set of rules that if they followed perfectly they would have life. Instead they operated on godly principles and it was their faith (actually in the future sacrifice that God would provide ) that allowed God to account them as righteous.

In a way our situation is different than Noah and Abraham's and at the same time it is the same. We seek the righteousness that is by faith like they did, but we exercise faith in the sacrifice that has been made ( Jesus Christ ) instead of the one that will be made. We have the assurance that that sacrifice was accepted by Christ's resurrection where they didn't have the resurrection of Christ to look to for assurance. Could people back then have been really immoral and yet be considered men of faith by God, I don't know of any. I'm certainly not the judge. I'm just offering something I've thought about.

Back to the subject of JW's. Do they believe that they could go out in field service for a million hours and then they are owed everlasting life? No. How many hours would you have to go out to get it? It doesn't matter because you can't earn it. I think all JW's would agree to those statements. Can you go out in field service 0 hrs and have faith and still be saved? Many JW's I know would answer no. So in a way, that is a work of law. There are some protestant churches that set up the same kind of thing. Ex. - You don't go to church, you don't get saved.

I think they take a blend of works and faith. I know many people that would say any blending of required works + faith = salvation to be setting up a law of works. Is it? I'm not sure.

There were many times when the Jewish Christians would try to force Gentile Christians to uphold the law and it was repeatedly stated that we trust to get saved through faith and not through law.

Is it a law if there is no promise that if you uphold it you will get life? If the answer to that is no, then no they don't set up law. Because they don't promise life for field service if there is no faith to accompany it. I find them hard to read because in all their literature they make it apparent that they expect no one but JW's to survive Armageddon. They expect many who have faith in Christ to be destroyed (non-Jehovah's Witness Christians). And they imply that unless you are involved in their door-to-door ministry you will be destroyed. Is that a work of law? You be the judge. Maybe me writing all these things were things you already knew. If so, I'm sorry. If not, I hope it at least shows that it's not a simple topic.

One thing I'm adding after editing this. - If you know a train is coming and you're sitting on the tracks, do you move? I would think that anyone who really believes it will. May some move off the tracks who don't believe the train is coming? Yes. Do they have faith that it is coming? No.

18

Pray silently?!? What the heck is this about?

by A-Team in

i was just reading memphisbelle's account, and she mentions that the wt says that one is suppose to pray silently so satan wouldn't be able to mess up god's plans.

um, correct me if i am wrong, since i have never been, or will never be a jw....but what the heck kind of logic is this?!?

(especially if you read what the bible says about prayer.

LayingLow

I also believed this as well as those around me. I can not recall whether I ever read it in publications, or whether I only heard it from others. It was definitely something there was a consensus about. I think the actual instruction not to pray aloud about personal weaknesses was something I never heard explicitly, but it is the inference many made from the idea that Satan could hear their verbal prayers. I think its the over thinking thing. They think about Satan listening and so they think, "well how can I get around him hearing me, oh, I can pray silently". And then it turns into an instruction next thing you know. Over-thinking in the less important things, under-thinking in the more important.

16

The Earthly Hope for the thief on the cross?

by Honesty in

since jesus died first and the curtain in the temple was torn in two did the thief share in the earthly or the heavenly hope?.

so the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first man and of the other one who had been crucified with him.

when they came to jesus, they did not break his legs since they saw that he was already dead.

LayingLow

I may be mistaken, but aren't you actually agreeing with Honesty? I may have missed something, but it seems we're all agreeing that at Christ's return he will have his Kingdom on the earth(which came down out of heaven). We will not all be administrators no doubt, but it is where we all hope to be (on earth during the time of the Kingdom). If I did miss some part of the conversation, please bring it to my attention. Thank you.