Posts by Gopher

11

Do we need elders?

by ArgCampeon in

jw
friends

*** rbi8 1 timothy 3:1-7 ***.

3 that statement is faithful.. if any man is reaching out for an office of overseer, he is desirous of a fine work.

2 the overseer should therefore be irreprehensible, a husband of one wife, moderate in habits, sound in mind, orderly, hospitable, qualified to teach, 3 not a drunken brawler, not a smiter, but reasonable, not belligerent, not a lover of money, 4 a man presiding over his own household in a fine manner, having children in subjection with all seriousness; 5 (if indeed any man does not know how to preside over his own household, how will he take care of gods congregation?

Gopher

Arg,

Who's not paying attention to the Scripture? Jesus said love would be the hallmark of Christians, and it WAS in the first century. But now, as you admit in your reply to me, the system is "unloving toward those who love to sin". No system should be unloving, period. It goes against John 13:35.

Rather than kicking to the curb people they don't care about, there should be longer-term pastoral counselling to try to help a person (if they so desire). Quite a few who are DF'd really never wanted to leave. But they are shunted aside, and told not to... associate with JW's, not to..... associate with ex-JW's, and not to.... associate with 'bad associates' from the world. Just be a hermit, live life in a bubble of shame.....Then "we the elders" will decide when we think you are worthy of our love.

How unloving! How unlike the father of the prodigal son, who had no probation period when his son returned, but IMMEDIATELY showed love.

You, ArgCampeon and short-sighted JW's of your ilk, love legalism above the more challenging task of showing love to all, including those who have erred.

Oh and one more thing.... you said, " If Jehovah blessed an arrangement in the past, he approves of it in the present".. NOT TRUE!!!!! Or, does he still require bull sacrifices and weekly sabbath?

And don't tell me your brand of Christianity is the same as in the first century.... Why even the emphasis of the "Kingdom preaching" has shifted from Jesus to some government, supposedly established unseen to human eyes. And there are many arrangements (including harsh disfellowshipping and disassociation) which simply didn't exist in the first century. (Jesus said in Matthew 18 that if a congregation puts a person out, let him become to you AS a man of the nations.... JW's treat people FAR WORSE than those of the nations....They apply ancient Israelite principles to the DF'd and DA'd ones, symbolically stoning them in the city square.)

Read your Bible where Jesus says, "I want mercy rather than sacrifice".

GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
Mark Twain (1835-1910)

11

Do we need elders?

by ArgCampeon in

jw
friends

*** rbi8 1 timothy 3:1-7 ***.

3 that statement is faithful.. if any man is reaching out for an office of overseer, he is desirous of a fine work.

2 the overseer should therefore be irreprehensible, a husband of one wife, moderate in habits, sound in mind, orderly, hospitable, qualified to teach, 3 not a drunken brawler, not a smiter, but reasonable, not belligerent, not a lover of money, 4 a man presiding over his own household in a fine manner, having children in subjection with all seriousness; 5 (if indeed any man does not know how to preside over his own household, how will he take care of gods congregation?

Gopher

Obviously, Jehovah blessed the "older men" or "elder" arrangement.

I'm glad you phrased that sentence in the past tense. Perhaps it is true, God did bless the older men in first century Christianity, before the man of lawlessness arose.

Ever since the first century, man's organizations have only meant one thing: A highly regulated society, rule after rule, all man-made and leading to an interference of the individual's relationship with God and Christ. The WT Society has placed themselves as the mediator in place of Christ. How often do we hear the publications or public talks say "turn to the organization", "trust the organization", "our organization right or wrong". When in reality, this 'organization' has made as many mistakes as any other man-made religion, but they add to it the arrogance of denying ever having made any errors. Even doctrinal changes are subtly hidden, as if 'we really don't change.... oh, only a little but it's increasing light'. What was true a while back becomes a lie now (such as the generation of 1914 living to see Armageddon...how long we all preached that lie!!!).

And the harshness of the judicial system, these men often favoring those they like and disfavoring those they have little use for. You could almost pick on any one in the congregation and start up a judicial inquiry if you didn't like them. How sad, how legalistic, how unloving.

How far from the ideals expressed in the scriptures you cited!

GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
Mark Twain (1835-1910)

23

For those questioning the F&DS

by ArgCampeon in

jw
friends

an interesting scripture reminds us to be careful of those that question every good thing that the f&ds does:.

titus 1:10-16 .

"10 for there are many unruly men, profitless talkers, and deceivers of the mind, especially those men who adhere to the circumcision.

Gopher

Arg,

Um, dare I say your thoughts and opinions are always welcome on this board! Dare I say also that, due to the freedom which exists on this board and not in the so-called Christian congregation of JW's, you will be overwhelmed with rebuttals!

I challenge your very first sentence....nobody challenges EVERY thing (or every good thing) that the leaders of the WT Society does. It is just so well-documented that their teachings and harsh actions have been so hurtful over the years, that they themselves set the poor example of "Christianity", with Pharisaical rules, nit picking on so many little things, making life burdensome for what they call the "rank and file" among their flock, always demanding more, but not really setting the example of giving more!

So as for the leaders of the WT society, I would like to borrow your last quote, "I do not want to be in THEIR shoes when Jehovahcomes knocking".

GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
Mark Twain (1835-1910)

15

how do i get a divorce when no one has.......

by jazz in

jw
friends

commited adultery my wife and i are headed in that direction what should i tell the brothers?

we are doing so because she just doesnt trust me anymore ?

Gopher

Jazz,

Technically you CAN get a divorce. But according to the Bible as interpreted by JW's, you cannot remarry after the divorce, unless one or the other then commits adultery. So by taking the route of divorce, you'd open up yourself & her to temptation.....

But humans being what they are, that situation wouldn't last long and you'd soon be free.

Sorry to hear this about your marriage. It's a hard emotional turmoil to go through. People shouldn't have to go through all this, life is too short. *sigh*

Are you intent on staying a JW? Is that important to you? What about your wife? Just curious. (Like Andi said, there isn't enough info in your post.)

GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
Mark Twain (1835-1910)

31

How would you respond to this?

by openminded in

jw
friends

i got this letter today from a friend of my dad who i have not seen in years.

please respond to any or all of it as you see fit.

it pretty much sums up witness mentality.

Gopher

Hey openminded,

Good to see you again, been awhile! Your dad's friend is quite wordy. I'm inclined to echo what Billygoat said. If you even write one sentence in reply, you may get a reply the size of "War and Peace".

So he said he's read apostate material and refuted it. Did he read Crisis of Conscience? I was still a little bit pro-JW before I opened this book. But there is no way to refute the facts Ray Franz presented. And it really aids any open-minded (no pun intended) reader to see that the JW is merely another religious organization with many flaws, not necessarily God's instrument.

So either your dad's friend didn't read this seminal work, or he's fooling himself. Either way, he's happy with what he is, you're happy with what you are.

So you'd do just as well to skip religion and talk about the weather.

GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
Mark Twain (1835-1910)

8

How can you go back?

by notperfectyet in

jw
friends

i talked to my parents tonight.

the first time in a year and a half.

i will save you all the boring details of my life, being raised in the truth by an elder dad, pioneer mom, yada, yada.. tonight they were very loving and kind.

Gopher

Deacon, you said:

They know...lots...
but did they ask about me?
Did they ask about the marriage?
Did they ask anything other than the business in hand? (and that was a favor asked of her)
no

My sister is DA'd, I'm DF'd. I have a close friend, DF'd. All of us with parents "in the organization".

One thing in common among all of us, is that our parents "turn off" normal relations with us. Though they claim love is their hallmark, such a claim turns into a lie when dealing with shunned children.

Nobody among our non-JW friends can figure out this coldness, this lack of feeling from our JW parents. It's almost like they have a large rock where their heart should be.

We all agree we TRY to show our parents love & respect, but also agree it's really hard to approach them in this artificial, "conditional love" environment they have created. It seems we're only worth something if we return to becoming slaves to the publishing society. In other words, the interests of the publishing society come ahead of the interests of the family.

So sad, so heart-wrenching, so frustrating. Yet we've come to terms with the fact that we (sadly) may never get our "real" parents back.

Best wishes as you come to grips with all of this! It isn't easy.

GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
Mark Twain (1835-1910)

33

My stepfather died tonight

by Mulan in

jw
friends

i have just finished making phone calls informing the family of the death of my stepfather.

i was an adult when he married my mother, but i loved him very much.

he was a wonderful man.. although he was a faithful jw, for his entire life (he was born to it) he was a really good man, and a true christian, i believe.

Gopher

Marilyn, sorry to hear about this. Words are inadequate. But we're here for you!

GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
Mark Twain (1835-1910)

33

To all snipers and bombers

by Norm in

jw
friends

the approach of ex-jehovah's witnesses towards those still witnesses has been debated since the problem first occurred.

personally i joined the ranks of ex-witnesses in 1988 and found myself more or less thrown into the fray appearing in media like newspapers, radio and tv.

one of the first things i noticed was the interest bestowed upon me from competing churches, particularly from the pentecostalism camp.

Gopher

I had been one who likes things "neatly wrapped", and presented oh-so-tactfully.

In the 5 months I've been out here, reading Norm's posts, I find myself laughing, clapping and cheering! Hit 'em between the eyes Norm. You never unnecessarily offend, it's only facts!

Such posts raise the level of discussion to "FACTS" and not 'personalities' and 'feelings'. Loving it!!

GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
Mark Twain (1835-1910)

15

For you JW's out there. What would you do if ....

by Brutus in

jw
friends

20 yrs have passed, now (2021) and armageddon still had not come.

what would you do or what would you think?.

just curious

Gopher

DC,

ROFL! Technically, Yahweh wouldn't be your assistant, but those on the WT Society's Writing Committees! They're expert in handling blinking lights!

Brutus,

et tu? Watch out for Spiritual armageddon. Any day now!!! (oh no, I didn't mean to sound like, you know)

Borgfree,

This one's on the house!

GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
Mark Twain (1835-1910)

15

For you JW's out there. What would you do if ....

by Brutus in

jw
friends

20 yrs have passed, now (2021) and armageddon still had not come.

what would you do or what would you think?.

just curious

Gopher

Joanne,

It's fun to try and "think ahead" to see how the Society will rationalize the status quo 20 years from now. To be honest, I sort of borrowed the "spiritual Armageddon" idea from an old Time magazine article about the j-dubs.

Ozzie,

You bring up an interesting point. We can't state anything dogmatically, that's why it's kind of fun to talk about. I think the fact that the battle of Revelation 12 was shown as being heated is more of an acknowledgement of the power Satan has accrued (and the vast number of demons he has rounded up, and their fierceness as well) rather than to any weakness on the side of Jesus. Don't know, just speculation.

Borgfree,

The name Jehovah's Witnesses came out in 1931. The Nazi persecution of the JW's was mainly from 1933 to 1945. So they asked to be called "Jehovas Zeugen" rather than "Bibelforscher".

GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
Mark Twain (1835-1910)