While I think this is a largely pointless argument (because it depends on your views of mans origin and mans destiny) I do have a great site to add to the mix for you guys:
gravedancer
JoinedPosts by gravedancer
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The Inherent Goodness Fallacy
by comforter inmost or all people are good.
actually, humans are basically evil.
the bible says that man be inclined toward what is bad from his youth up.
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Tempering expectations to reality
by gravedancer inas one who has been reading posts this evening i find it odd that many of the xjw's here are wondering why every jw who sees a program like panorama doesn't immediately quit the cult (yes i said cult).
well its a rather obvious explanation, in my opinion.
simply put "you cannot argue against faith with facts".
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gravedancer
As one who has been reading posts this evening I find it odd that many of the XJW's here are wondering why every JW who sees a program like Panorama doesn't immediately quit the cult (yes I said cult).
Well its a rather obvious explanation, in my opinion. Simply put "you cannot argue against faith with facts". The reason being is that JW's have been through some serious conditioning:
- If they were converted they gave up their families who did no follow suit
- If they were raised as JW's they have only known one group of friends
- They are taught that everyone who is not a JW is going to die but as long as they remain JW's they will be preserved through Armageddon.
- Their beliefs are based on a framework and the framework itself is based on the utterances of the Faithful and Discreet Slave. Questioning the slave leads to questioning of the framework.
- They take great comfort from their beliefs (the framework). They might not actually want to question their beliefs or hear a dissenting view. They have given up careers, university, freedom of speech, gender equality, sexual freedom, many hours, thinking for themselves, the pursuit of material items and so much else for their beliefs. In return they have been offered membership and acceptance in a worldwide brotherhood (where they can find support and friends in most any country on earth).
So is it denial? Yes it is. But we all need to understand and realise the reality. We point to 23,000 offenders out of 6 million - that is less than 0.04% of the membership (probably no higher than the percentages across the public at large in their minds). They can find ways to justify this stuff.....
The bottom line is that we need to be patient with such ones. The reality is that the WT will not immediately crumble....we need to manage our expectations otherwise we are becoming believers in a cause not based on realistic outcomes. Expecting the collapse of JWs is exactly the same as expecting the collapse of Catholicism. The best case we can expect is an adjustment of policy over time just as we have seen with the Catholics, IMHO.
You all know my views, I am a non believer ....don't shoot the messenger but feel free to argue against my message.
GD
(edited to correct a typo)
Edited by - gravedancer on 14 July 2002 23:0:3
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the next question...
by gravedancer inmy philosophy as someone seeking to improve my understanding of why things are as they are, why things work, how i can improve things for myself all comes down to a simple method: always ask the next question.
asking the next question allows us to build logic chains.
the benefit in doing so allows us to construct mini-systems for ourselves as we grow.
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gravedancer
excellent points Xander....the next question kicks in again!!!
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the next question...
by gravedancer inmy philosophy as someone seeking to improve my understanding of why things are as they are, why things work, how i can improve things for myself all comes down to a simple method: always ask the next question.
asking the next question allows us to build logic chains.
the benefit in doing so allows us to construct mini-systems for ourselves as we grow.
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gravedancer
The bible says that all things being created through jesus christ
So the next question: So did Jesus create destuctive Viruses then? Is he still creating them since new ones appear with increasing rapidity? It cannot be because our "systems weakened"....we have scientific evidence that new viruses are spawned all the time. It is an indisputable fact that they evolve (and they evolve in small amounts of measureable time though mutation).
GD
(edited to fix a typo)
Edited by - gravedancer on 14 July 2002 19:4:29
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the next question...
by gravedancer inmy philosophy as someone seeking to improve my understanding of why things are as they are, why things work, how i can improve things for myself all comes down to a simple method: always ask the next question.
asking the next question allows us to build logic chains.
the benefit in doing so allows us to construct mini-systems for ourselves as we grow.
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gravedancer
Third question:
Can the devil create living things in much the same way as God does?
Well, as the link I posted shows....puny men can now create a biological virus from scratch.
If you answered NO then, the next question is: Are humans more powerful than the devil? If humans can create a virus (a destructive one at that) then why can't Satan? Religionists teach that Satan is one of the most powerful beings in existence (we know that 1 angel killed 185,000 of Senacharib's soldiers in one night according to the Bible).
If you answered YES then, the next question is: what has the devil created? If he is so evil why aren't we being overrun by his creations? Surely he can be more evil than history has shown....we know humans have been much worse than any "natural" or "created" things in their wanton destruction and misery-making.
GD
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the next question...
by gravedancer inmy philosophy as someone seeking to improve my understanding of why things are as they are, why things work, how i can improve things for myself all comes down to a simple method: always ask the next question.
asking the next question allows us to build logic chains.
the benefit in doing so allows us to construct mini-systems for ourselves as we grow.
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gravedancer
How about the second question:
Did God change the nature of living things so that some would be bad or evil?
Interesting question...I already quoted James where he says God will not try men with evil. However Genesis points to something like this when God kicked Adam and Eve out of Eden and he cursed the ground.
If you answer NO, then how did the Virus (togetrher with myriads of other things that plague us) get here? Shoudl we refer to question number 3?
If you answer YES, then it surely is reasonable to know why? Doesn't that contradict his love? Why make people suffer? Look at the average compassion humans show with something such as the death penalty: they are either vehemently opposed or they want it to be humane and quick (without suffering)....are they more compassionate than God?
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the next question...
by gravedancer inmy philosophy as someone seeking to improve my understanding of why things are as they are, why things work, how i can improve things for myself all comes down to a simple method: always ask the next question.
asking the next question allows us to build logic chains.
the benefit in doing so allows us to construct mini-systems for ourselves as we grow.
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gravedancer
Let's tackle the first question raised:
Since we accept that viruses (according to the average human experience) are bad did God create them?
Tough question for many creationist believers. Why? Lets see:
If you answer NO then, the next question to ask is: how did the bad viruses get here? Did they "evolve" (oops...the dreaded E word).
If you answer yes, then one can ask what type of God would do such a thing? Isn't he supposed to be a God of love? Why would he create the HIV Virus? Why did he create the "black death" or the "Spanish Flu"? Doesn't James say that God tests no man with evil?
So how do you answer? Remember I am going to ask the next questiont hough...
GD
Edited by - gravedancer on 14 July 2002 19:7:18
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the next question...
by gravedancer inmy philosophy as someone seeking to improve my understanding of why things are as they are, why things work, how i can improve things for myself all comes down to a simple method: always ask the next question.
asking the next question allows us to build logic chains.
the benefit in doing so allows us to construct mini-systems for ourselves as we grow.
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gravedancer
My philosophy as someone seeking to improve my understanding of why things are as they are, why things work, how I can improve things for myself all comes down to a simple method: Always ask the next question.
Asking the next question allows us to build logic chains. The benefit in doing so allows us to construct mini-systems for ourselves as we grow. It is much easier to build a framework than to keep clutching at loose straws (since that just leads to frustration and we feel as if we never have any basis for anything).
As an example lets look at something really simple and since this board is religious in nature lets make some connections to that as we look at the VIRUS.
Anyone who has performed any research or reading concerning virology knows that viruses are moochers. They contain only a limited genetic blueprint and they don't have the necessary building tools. They have to invade other cells and hijack their cellular machinery to reproduce. Viruses invade by attaching to a cell and injecting their genes or by being swallowed up by the cell. A virus is an example of something known as a microbe. Its brothers and sisters include items such as bacteria, fungi, archaea and protests (enough of the boring science lesson for now huh?) If you want to see some simple explanations I have quoted some of this material for www.microbe.org .
As humans we know viruses are BAD or some would even say EVIL. (believe it or not there are more good microbes than bad ones).
So time for some questions.
- Since we accept that viruses (according to the average human experience) bad did God create them?
- Did God change the nature of living things so that some would be bad or evil?
- Can the devil create living things in much the same way as God does? (before you rush to answer consider the implications of this link) http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A58070-2002Jul11.html
I am going to leave it at his for now. I will be back later to pick it up from here.
(edited to reformat the bolding etc).
Edited by - gravedancer on 14 July 2002 18:16:14
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More Than You "MAY" Know
by QUANTUM ini thought that maybe some may want to see another side of the argument of god verses secularism / evolution verses creationism.
im not interested in the fact that many have lost their religious fervor and become atheists or invented their own belief system, or still accept the bible but with a different twist.
my intention is to make as strong of an argument as i can for the existence of a particular god, who i believe we all once knew and may be privileged to know again.
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gravedancer
zzzzzzzzzzzz
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More Than You "MAY" Know
by QUANTUM ini thought that maybe some may want to see another side of the argument of god verses secularism / evolution verses creationism.
im not interested in the fact that many have lost their religious fervor and become atheists or invented their own belief system, or still accept the bible but with a different twist.
my intention is to make as strong of an argument as i can for the existence of a particular god, who i believe we all once knew and may be privileged to know again.
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gravedancer
Thanks Prisca