As one whose greatest literary hero might be Horatio Hornblower, who finds himself singing refrains from Brown Sugar and Lady Madonna, who finds solace in the phrases of Tennyson which that tell us that we can only trust that there is not even a worm that is cloven in vain or a moth that is shrivelled in a fruitless fire, who still mourns The Flower of England, cut down at the Somme, who, while hating the loss of American boys in a war that had nothing to do with us, still was glad of the relief it gave to England's side, and there is no use in bringing up Wellington, or the Falklands, well, I hope that we always share the willingness to fight with only blood, sweat and tears as our promised allotment in support of freedom and opposition to tyranny. To be short, we too know what it is like to be inundated by a culture that we love and yet which while familiar is sometimes almost overpowering and threatening. You know, the only people ever to have invaded and razed our capital are the British. Yet as recently as last week our pilots braved fire together to strike a common foe. As an American, I offer my sincere apologies to the world at large for the cult known as Jehovah's Witnesses which plays on the popularity of the "worldly" American Culture to push its own agenda. Also, I am not bragging, but I would have to say that I think we have as high a percentage of apostates as anyone. Sure the bums in Brooklyn are pushing the lie, but Franz (currently out of Ga. and who received succor in Alabama during his hardest trials) has dealt the strongest blow against them by any single apostate. I'd put our American Apostates from Franz down to COMF up against anyones!!! Of course by providing people like You Know and Fred to illustrate the Witnesses we do the world a favor also. Non-examples are good. I am using their defninition of the term apostate of course as I actually view anyone who puts themselves in as mediators [for all, men] as apostate in regards to the bible. Anyway, I am enjoying the thread and gratefull for this board and for the fact that it is open to all from around the world.
Posts by Grunt
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21WT cultural imperialism?
by expatbrit ini've been thinking about americans.
specifically about whether the wt, being an american dominated religion, forces american attitudes and culture upon other nations.. now, don't get me wrong, i'm not anti-american.
living in canada i have a lot of contact with many americans.
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Grunt
Ditto, Java.
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WT cultural imperialism?
by expatbrit ini've been thinking about americans.
specifically about whether the wt, being an american dominated religion, forces american attitudes and culture upon other nations.. now, don't get me wrong, i'm not anti-american.
living in canada i have a lot of contact with many americans.
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Grunt
Be careful that you don't believe stereotypes that are not true. I don't think all British men are fops. Please don't think all Southern men are ignorant racists. How many of your male friends are prone to tears? It takes strong circumstances to bring that out in my friends. Death, agony on the part of a loved one, that sort of thing. Most of the troubled young men I deal with are far more prone to cause tears than to shed them.
As for culture clashes, and the pushing of American Culture, what the Watchtower pushes is not American Culture by a long shot. It is an elitist brand of spritual dictatorship smacking of class structure almost so strict as to be like a caste system. You and I as "apostates" would be the untouchables in their eyes. I know Russell gleaned a lot of information from British sources and he being a Pensylvania Yankee himself, well, it just doesn't show much of my American Culture, which is Deep South. From the night an elder from New York (or northeast somewhere) via Miami tried to talk to me real hard and I told him I was real close to knocking him down and he'd best learn a different tone when talking to me, well, suffice it to say after he scuttled back into the hall like a rabbit I told myself it was just his culture and that I needed to be more humble and patient. The big clash with the Jehovah's Witnesses is between their lies and gibberish and truth. Some of the crap they write sounds like a victorian rabble rouser, "Keep pace with the Celestial Chariot and the Royal Rider!" Never heard anything like that anywhere in the USA from CA to CT or from MT to FL. Always remember the home address of these people is Brooklyn, but try not to judge the people from there too hard. I had a good friend in the Marines from Brooklyn and he didn't talk like that either. -
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Family dynamics and the Org.
by LDH ini have made a couple of remarks regarding family dynamics on other threads, but i thought it's be nice to start a new thread.... i'm no psychologist, but suffice it to say i see some similarities here.
(please add to/comment on these thoughts).
the organization wishes to be seen as our mother.
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Grunt
Xandit,
I hope you didn't take my posts as personal attacks. They were not meant to be. I am hoping to point out the flaws of the organization, not of any individual. I have far too many flaws of my own to do that. I will point out the flaws of the organization as they claim to be Jehovah's Earthly Organization and if you put yourself up on that kind of pedestal and it is untrue then you deserve to be knocked off. Especially if your advice is destroying marriages, killing children and adults, and ripping familys, extended and even immediate families, apart. My brother said the Jehovah's Witnesses went through our once very close extended family like a cancer. It is true. My family strectches from Fresno, CA. through MN, TX, IN, MS, IL, Al and all over the deep South down to my daughters place in Lakeland, my son's in Orlando. We used to get together, we used to be close. The last reunion was boycotted by many of the Witnesses as there are somed DF'd who would attend. To me the Jehovah's Witnesses are a corrosive cult. Just my opinion based on my experiences and what they say.
Please stay, please read and please offer your opinions as to any errors I make in anything I say. Constructive criticism is always welcome. I do hope you will read and look up the quotes and decide if they are taken out of context or if they don't represent accurately the views of the organization. If they don't then say so and say why. Thank you. -
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Family dynamics and the Org.
by LDH ini have made a couple of remarks regarding family dynamics on other threads, but i thought it's be nice to start a new thread.... i'm no psychologist, but suffice it to say i see some similarities here.
(please add to/comment on these thoughts).
the organization wishes to be seen as our mother.
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Grunt
Xandit, I wasn't raised as a Witness. I got my degree on the G.I. Bill, (Thanks Unk) and I post here not to complain about how my life didn't go but to warn people like you and others even more ensnared than you are that the Jehovah's Witnesses are in fact a cult and should be avoided at all cost if you are not entangled and looked at carefully and impartially if you are. A close look will reveal what I have already pointed out in the posts before this; that the organization claims equal or superior billing with the Bible by saying the Bible alone won't be enough. That the organization is controlling to the point of saying no fleshly relationship is close enough to keep you from cutting them off if they are critical of the organization. That the organization has taught lies from the beginning to the end, and if you read closely they have admitted it and admit that it is tough to swallow but you should do it anyway. Now, it is always hard to hear someone you love put down, but it is the truth. If my compendium is not honest then point out the error. Prove to me with equal concisness that the Cult known as Jehovah's Witnesses are not a group prone; to lie, deny lies, and selfish enough to allow families to be shattered and people to die over their lies. I don't think you can. Which makes your statement about being able to prove whatever you like with column A - Z the dishonest one. Your mother, if that is how you view the Society, needs to be taken off the street before she spreads her diseases any further. Drawing in the innocents with claims of holiness while all the time keeping secrets about lies they have told and denying their record even being so brassy as to claim lies aren't wrong, or that people have no where else to go, well, I don't think she is your real mother. She is like the woman Solomon had to deal with who was willing to allow a baby to be cut in half rather than admit to the lie she told. Like Solomon, read her actions, don't believe her words. Cleanse yourself and move on. As you go, tell others what she is so they won't be taken in by her false front. I have bought experience that I have paid dearly for and am still paying for. I gave a child for it. I am here to say, get out of her, her stench rises to heaven. She is white on the outside but inside full of filth and blood-guilt. If you have ears, use them. If you doubt my quotes, look them up. If you can prove otherwise, then do so. The saying goes, "Experience is a hard school, but a fool will have no other." For those reading these posts and seeing how those like myself detest the group calling themselves Jehovah's Witnesses, think hard about why. I have known them intimately since 1971. Many for far longer. Learn from our experience. Judge them by their actions and their lack of love for any but themselves.
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Family dynamics and the Org.
by LDH ini have made a couple of remarks regarding family dynamics on other threads, but i thought it's be nice to start a new thread.... i'm no psychologist, but suffice it to say i see some similarities here.
(please add to/comment on these thoughts).
the organization wishes to be seen as our mother.
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Grunt
My wife read my answer to Xandit and said I should try and say something positive. As I respect my wife, I will. I really don't like negativity.
Xandit and any other witness lurking or posting here, there are some postive things to say to you. First of all I admire you for being here and for speaking your mind. I hope you continue to do just that. Second, there are many, many, parents in the Jehovah's Witnesses who refuse to shun their children, even though they are opposed to the organization. My parents are among those. They and you, go against the teachings of men by continuing to speak and show love and concern to even those who have left the organization and I admire your and their largeness of heart and soul in doing so. If I ever come across as harsh, judgemental or mean, please let me ask your pardon for that. I do not judge you, though I do judge the organization as they say I should, yes I have a lot of quotes on that but am not going to bore you with even one. (unless you ask of course) What I hope you find is the vision to see that Jesus is a Lamb, not a Royal Rider of a Celestial Chariot about to make Apostates the Main Course in their own demonic meal when the Great War Cry goes forth and the Table of Demons is destroyed. I want you to be able to read stuff like that and the following and see that you are being commanded by people other than Jesus Christ but people who use that name and the name Jehovah, to get people like us to go along with what they say. Just as was done in the middle ages. Nothing new under the sun. The Witnesses are not the only ones who do what they do. Russell admitted he had not come up with new stuff just combined a bunch of things other people believed. Read this and see if you see manipulation and jargon as clearly as I do.
W91 3-15 p 17
If we are keeping pace with the chariotlike angelic organization, we will promptly comply with direction and instructions received through God’s visible organization. Jehovah provides what we need to meet attacks on our faith, to maintain our grip on the Word of life, and to keep our eyes fixed on the spiritual realities that center on the Royal Rider of the celestial chariot.
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Family dynamics and the Org.
by LDH ini have made a couple of remarks regarding family dynamics on other threads, but i thought it's be nice to start a new thread.... i'm no psychologist, but suffice it to say i see some similarities here.
(please add to/comment on these thoughts).
the organization wishes to be seen as our mother.
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Grunt
Xandit, you said:
"Let me tell you a cold hard fact. If your parents would have been wonderful parents outside the organization then they would have been wonderful parents inside the organization."
Maybe you believe that. I don't. The facts don't bear you out. Here is what the organization is saying to parents:
"believe all things the Watchtower brings out, it is not considered a lie to withhold true information from someone you do not feel deserves a true statement. As a matter of fact the Scriptures show that for the purpose of protecting the interests of God’s cause, it is proper to hide the truth from God’s enemies. No matter how close the relationship the loyalty to Jehovah’s organization must transcend every human relationship, even that of close flesh-and-blood relatives. They have become real enemies and you must hate them with a perfect hatred, you must feel only loathing for those apostates, no matter WHO they are to you."
Almost every word of that was taken, not in words but phrases, from the Watchtower quotes below. Check it out. Don't talk to me of good parents in the organization, or good children, as there are only good Witnesses if they want to please Jehovah/The Organization. If you have any doubts as to them viewing the Organization as God I could quote you some stuff from the Watchtower or from the parts of the Watchtower literature that my daughter parroted to me thinking they were her own thoughts in a letter she wrote me letting me know that our relationship was now changed. No. The only way to be a good parent in the Jehovah's Witnesses is to have believing children. If you have "apostate" children (in their view) then you are to hate and loathe them. In my dictionary loathe means detest or abhor. No; good parents don't detest and abhor their children for being critical of a religious organization. Cult members do. Hate blinded cult members do. Brainwashed cult members do. The only other people I can think of who regularly discard their children are drug addicts. You refer to many of the people here as whiners, that is the last thing they are. What they speak is the truth. In the words of the Watchtower " When our heavenly Father, Jehovah God, speaks, whether through his Word, the Bible, or through his earthly organization, it is all the more important for us to listen and obey, thus proving that we are obedient worshipers who do not ignore the loving reminder: “Did you hear me?"
I ask you Xandit, Did you hear me? Do you hear them in the quotes above and below ??? They really do make it pretty simple.
Grunt
Quotes the above combined statement was taken from:
si Bible Book Number 38-Zechariah
24 In chapter 13, verses 2 to 6, Zechariah illustrates the loyalty that to this day marks Jehovah’s organization. This must transcend every human relationship, such as that of close flesh-and-blood relatives.
W 93 10/1
15 Regarding them, the psalmist said: "Do I not hate those who are intensely hating you, O Jehovah, and do I not feel a loathing for those revolting against you? With a complete hatred I do hate them. They have become to me real enemies." (Psalm 139:21, 22)
True Christians share Jehovah’s feelings toward such apostates; they are not curious about apostate ideas. On the contrary, they "feel a loathing" toward those who have made themselves God’s enemies, but they leave it to Jehovah to execute vengeance.—Job 13:16; Romans 12:19; 2 John 9, 10.
w88 4/1 31 Is Obedience Always Proper? ***
When our heavenly Father, Jehovah God, speaks, whether through his Word, the Bible, or through his earthly organization, it is all the more important for us to listen and obey, thus proving that we are obedient worshipers who do not ignore the loving reminder: “Did you hear me?"according to the Insight Book, under the definition of the word Lie - it is not considered a lie to withhold true information from someone you do not feel deserves a true statement.
w60 6/1 352 Questions from Readers ***
Thus the Scriptures show that for the purpose of protecting the interests of God’s cause, it is proper to hide the truth from God’s enemies.Qualified to be Ministers
pg. 156 -
"If we have love for Jehovah and for the organization of his people
we shall not be suspicious, but shall,
as the Bible says, 'believe all things,' all the things that The Watchtower
brings out." -
64
Family dynamics and the Org.
by LDH ini have made a couple of remarks regarding family dynamics on other threads, but i thought it's be nice to start a new thread.... i'm no psychologist, but suffice it to say i see some similarities here.
(please add to/comment on these thoughts).
the organization wishes to be seen as our mother.
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Grunt
Hi Drives Like Jehu,
I appreciate your attitude toward your parents. I have a son who is 26 now. Even though he had a full ride on scholarships to college, we still provided him with a car, and if he came home on weekends we would wash the car together, wash his clothes, pack him a cooler full of food fill up his car and send him back. I paid for his insurance, clothes, and slipped him a little cash on the side when he needed it. He always showed us love and respect, still does, and I genuinely appreciate it. He always appreciated what we did for him and would ask for our advice, which was an honor. Much as we hated to we both told him moving to CT sounded like a good idea when he was offered a job there after graduation. His consideration of and appreciation for us meant more than I can say. I would rather go a little too far in showing respect than not far enough. I think you are doing fine and you have plenty of years of complete independence ahead of you. My son is now doing well, he is an engineer, used to work for Pratt and Whitney but was hired away by a company in Orlando. The reason he took it was to be close to us, and his mom and I appreciate it. He was home this weekend putting up a ceiling fan for me. He and I split a jet ski, we take trips toghether and it is just a real pleasure to have him around. He has been real supportive during the stressful time since my daughter, the Pioneer, has been cutting us out of her life. When something like that happens even knowing the Society, you still question yourself as a parent. Having a child from the same environment who treats you with love and respect affirms you as a parent. In your situatioin, if you draw further from the Witnesses there will be a crisis point in the future where your parents either stay close to you or pull away. Being close now is crucial no matter what happens then. I hope you are able to stay close to them no matter what. I hope you do everything as slowly as possible and with consideration consistent with keeping your own integrity. Good luck on your exams. -
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Grunt
Thanks Six,
Beautiful pictures. I admire your taste and your technical prowess! It really is a beautiful world we are passing through. -
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Hello...Hello...Hello (cont) #3
by Prisca inwell someone had to do it, so it might as well be prim & proper prisca to do the honors in the sex forum...... .
this thread is for all newbies to introduce yourselves.
whatever you feel happy to reveal about yourself.
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Grunt
Hi Curly,
Thanks for posting, I really enjoyed hearing about your life. I am sorry for the break with your parents as I know how much that hurts from the other side. Maybe in time, with your brother as a help, the chasm will close and the wounds heal. I can only pass on some excellent advice I recieved which is to stay in touch even if you don't get an answer. It is hard to do, and I haven't done a very good job of it as being rejected when you have given all you have is very offensive, but it is the best path I think. Mommy (posts on this board) told me so anyway! I wish you and those you love, happiness.