Ginny,
I think Iraq is a part of it and will be required to pay, yet again, for the sins of their leader. I think the Taliban are done no matter what we do, as they have allowed their country to get beyond the point of no return in regards to food and basic needs. They exist, dependant on the "Kindness of Strangers." I saw that due to a pledge by the USA lots of food and blankets are being sent in to the squallid refugee camps the fleeing Afghans have on their borders where they are forced to huddle by their co-religionists, strange that we are helping those who hate us so much. As beggars and objects of pity, I would think that they would have a difficult time lasting more than another year or two at the current rate of descent. The country would be empty by then and most of the Warriors could be dreaming of driving cabs in the USA. As for women having a role, I can't understand why that is so impossible, every man there has a mother, or a wife or a daughter. Yet as of now they will amputate part of a finger if a woman wears fingernail polish, convict her of adultery if she is seen with a man other than her husband or a male relative, bury her up to her shoulders in dirt and then stone her to death. She is not to leave her home unescorted by a male relative without being killed or flogged. If they were Americans such treatment by a man would indicate that his wife is not to be trusted and must be watched. Maybe they know what kind of husbands they are. Bin Laden's coming from a dysfunctional family with fifty some odd brothers and sisters probably had something to do with all his head problems. What kind of father could you be to fifty plus children? Maybe the suicide thing is really a desire to punish themselves for the crap they perpetrate on the helpless women in their charge. I hope so. The death of the perpetrators is the only good thing about their crimes. I hate to see the peasants bombed and hope they all manage to run over the borders as millions have already done. Still, if murderers live in a house and come out and kill your family, then I say burn the damn house down. I would really like to see salt plowed into what fertile, well watered land that they have to leave it barren. Give their fellow Moslems a chance to gain favor with Allah by taking them in. I think the closed borders speak to how well they want to follow the injunction you quoted. When I think of the videos of the people falling to their deaths in New York and the celebrations in some of these counties, I find I am all too willing to let them stew in their own juices, only adding that pinch of salt just mentioned.
Posts by Grunt
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11Taliban, Lot, and Men of Sodom
by GinnyTosken inreading an article in the new york times, i came across a description of the taliban and mullah omar, the man who started the movement:.
isolating the taliban has been easy but ineffective because they insulate themselves.
television is banned.
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Grunt
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11
Taliban, Lot, and Men of Sodom
by GinnyTosken inreading an article in the new york times, i came across a description of the taliban and mullah omar, the man who started the movement:.
isolating the taliban has been easy but ineffective because they insulate themselves.
television is banned.
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Grunt
You said:The Taliban must also consider these sacred words:
Whosoever shields a Muslim, Allah will shield him in this world and the next. Allah will aid a servant of His so long as the servant aids his brother.
--Forty Hadith of an-Nawawi 36Considering their religious background, a decision about bin Laden is not simple. Should Lot have turned over his guests to the sinful men pounding on his door?"
They don't have to consider anything except how to get and keep power and they haven't done a very good job of that.
These men are not men of integrity. They do not really live by any "Holy Book" despite whatever lies they tell. They burn mosques, and Korans, torture fellow Muslims and even when they have a "visitor" they are not above killing them. These people are reaping what they have sown and the best punishment the US can give them is allowing them to punish themselves. Sadly we have to add to thier own self-inflicted punishment. Their "Muslim Warriors" have fled in cars, trucks and airplanes back when the civilians of New York were killed, they fled leaving the poor peasants there for the expected immediate bombing that didn't occur. As representatives of their society look at the "Muslim Warriors of the Jihad" on the plane. Just before taking the civilians in the planes hostage these suicide bombers were out drinking and trying to get out of paying the bill which helped identify them after the bombing. Then at an airport they almost fought a guy (five to one) over a parking space. They move on to slice up women on the airliners bad enough to get the pilots to leave the cabins and try to save them, promise the victims no one will be hurt and then they die in a blaze of shame which they see as glory. No, they are not religious men, as the drinking, lying and torturing women attests to. I don't think the problem is the concern with the Taliban is for a "guest" as much as it is concern for a PAYING guest. Just guessing, but judging by the rest of this guy's life, I doubt he will be there for the fireworks. He is a leader of suicide bombers and yet he lives? He says he wishes he were killed and yet he lives? Sounds like the sick mothers who have killed their children and then decided not to kill themselves to me. Real brave when others are doing the dying and all he does is give the money. I guess he thinks he is too important to die? These Muslim Warriors don't impress me much so far. They have a way of always torturing, mistreating or in the case of New York burning the women. I don't know the ratio of female secretaries to men, but it was probably high. These WARRIORS tend to surrender to male photographers when they are available if I remember the "Mother of All Wars" correctly. They can't run a real army. As soon as the outsiders like the US left after we gave them advisors and our weapons to defeat the Russians they immediately began to slaughter one another. That slaughter continues to this day. They just killed a hero of the war against the Russians, not in combat but by suicide, pretended to be journalists and had a bomb in their camera that killed them and their target. They seem to recognize that they can never win in a real contest and therefore give up and assume they will die but by trickery and lies can kill unsuspecting targets AS they die. If they can look really sheeplike and non-threatening they can kill a lot. As I said, they are their own worst punishment and no matter what the US does they will pay for their ignorance, arrogance and pigheadedness. I am including a page with examples of how they treated some elderly "guests." Any group who can make a big spectacle, much like the roman games, out of flogging a woman does not get much respect from me. The excuse was they are short on entertainment so floggings and amputations have taken that role. This is an excerpt taken from Human Rights Watch on just one of the massacres of other Moslems there. I left out the part about the large scale killings and just included their treatment of their elderly visitors:As reports of detentions and killings began to circulate through the district, groups of village elders sought meetings with Taliban commanders to ensure the security of their communities. According to a witness:
The same day [January 10] news came that the Taliban were searching houses as far as Girdbayd, some five kilometers from Nayak. People coming from there said that the Taliban had killed some of the people there. We all discussed among ourselves whether this could be true or not. After a couple of days [January 11 or 12], eight or ten of the village elders decided that they must go to Nayak to discuss the security of the area with the Taliban. They set off on foot towards Nayak.
The following is his account of what the elders told him:
On the way there, near Qala Issa Khan [a hamlet about 500 meters west of Nayak, also known as Qala Arbab Hassan], the elders saw Jan Agha, a local Tajik commander, sitting in a Taliban "Datsun" (a pickup truck).10 Jan Agha was gesticulating at the elders, pointing to something in the village, but they could not work out what it was, and so they proceeded.
The elders walked into Nayak unchallenged and went straight to the Taliban command post. They asked to see Commander Mullah Abdul Sattar, but he refused to see him. Then they managed to find Commander Haji Faqoori and after some persuasion, he managed to get Commander Sattar to see them. Sattar told the elders that he had just received orders from Kandahar, from Mullah [Mohammad] Omar [the head of the Taliban movement], declaring a general amnesty. He instructed the elders to go and meet with [Hizb-i Wahdat commander] Khalili and tell him not to fight any more, or there would be more killing.
On their return, Jan Agha told the elders what he had been pointing to and they saw a pile of bodies at the edge of Qala Issa Khan.According to the same witness, the elders subsequently met with Khalili, but he refused to stop fighting. Fearful of further conflict, the witness said, many local residents started to leave the area.
On at least two occasions, the Taliban killed delegations of Hazara elders who had attempted to intercede with them. On January 9, elders of Kata Khana gathered to meet with the Taliban. The Taliban arrested the entire group and killed everyone except two neighborhood leaders. In another case, the elders of Bed Mushkin village met with the Taliban to discuss security for the area. All were killed except one.11
The main execution site in Yakaolang appears to have been outside the relief agency in Nayak where the detainees from Dar-i Ali were killed. Witnesses also reported seeing piles of bodies in four other locations in and around Nayak: outside the district hospital, in the ravine behind the mosque in the old bazaar area, outside the prayer hall of Mindayak village, and at Qala Arbab Hassan. Of these, the largest pile of bodies was at Qala Arbab Hassan. Other killings were reported from neighborhoods in areas surrounding the district center, including outside the leprosy and tuberculosis clinics. A witness who visited Yakaolang district four weeks after the incident inspected one of the mass graves at Bed Mushkin village, in which twenty-six bodies had been found. One of the bodies was that of a seventeen-year-old boy, Mir Ali, much of whose skin had been removed either prior to or after his death.12 In a separate case, seven men were shot dead at the Zarin crossroad near the leprosy clinic in Yakaolang.13
I wouldn't count on their hospitality. They are hypocrites who seek their own power above any real good. No better or worse than Saddam. Another noble Muslim Warrior.
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Why Do I Remain one of Jehovah's Witnesses?
by Nicodemus innote: i originally started this as a reply to a query on the thread a different jw viewpoint.
alanf had asked me why i stay a jw in view of what i posted there.
as i developed the reply, it started to become clear to me that it was such a deviation from my original post that it deserved a separate thread.
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Grunt
Nicodemus,
Like most responding to this thread, I too have enjoyed your posts and have enjoyed them for a long time and in a number of places. You were my favorite poster back at Wit.net
The sad thing is though, you are NOT one of Jehovah's Witnesses. You are one in name only. If you expressed the views you have expressed right here to the wrong people you would quickly find out that they don't consider people who hold such views as real Witnesses. A lot of people you know on boards such as this one were disfellowshipped for less, unless of course you are willing to renounce such views if confronted. There are lots of good people in the Witnesses. The Witnesses have some views I agree with completely and I do admire anyone willing to die rather than kill someone else. I would admire them more if they were unwilling to HURT someone else, but that is another subject. Anyway, I think of you as sharing my views, not the Witnesses. I agreed with everything you said. You are a reasonable man. That means you are walking a tightrope as a Witness. -
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NATO INVOKES ARTICLE V - Serious
by Amazing inwhen nato invokes article v, it is more than just one member asking for support from the other member states, but article v invocation means all member states view the attack as an attack on them all.
in other words, nato aliance is at war with those responsible, and will support the us lead, which will now hold not only the terrorists responsible, but hold those nations that host them as equally responsible.. "brussels, belgium (cnn) -- nato has unanimously declared the hijack attacks on the u.s. to be an assault against all member states.".
"it is the first time in 52 years that the alliance has invoked article v -- the nato self-defence charter that says if one member state is under attack all other member nations would defend it.".
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Grunt
Skipper,
I didn't really get exactly what you propose should be done? I don't think you were serious about the isolation of the religious as you of course couldn't "isolate" all of Islam or any major religion.I also have to say like Shakespeare's character Mercutio from Romeo and Juliet, right after he'd been stabbed in reference to his wound, it wasn't as deep as a well or wide as a door, but it would do. And it did. So I believe this wound will do the job. I hope I am right. I hope the people who did this are brought to trial, convicted if guilty and then (my only bit of sadistic enjoyment) electrocuted. Then I hope they turn to the next terroist group and hunt them down. It may not work, maybe the numbers you catch and kill would be like advertisments but you have to do something. I sure hope you are wrong about the attacks. I do believe we will suffer more of them but I hope none this bad.
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Brits: 90% Say Go In With Yanks.
by Englishman ini thought you folk in the states might like to know how things stand this side of the pond.. sky news interactive showed that 90% of those polled thought that the uk should join with the us military in attacks on countries harbouring terrorists.. the the entrance to the us embassy in london is stacked high with flowers and tributes, the fdr statue in particular has also been similarly honoured.. flags all around the country are at half-mast.. the queen ordered that the daily changing of the guard ceremony at buckingham palace should feature the usa national anthem, this has never happened before at such a nationalistic event.. the famous last night of the proms at the albert hall and hyde park has been restructured to honour the american dead.. it is know that several hundred brits were in the trade centre at the time of the attack.. i just wanted you people to know that your country is by no means on its own in this crisis.
((((((big british hugs))))))).
englishman.
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Grunt
Englishman,
Thanks to you and your country. I watched the changing of the guard and was deeply touched. I am so sorry for all of those of every nationality that died for such a stupid reason. This rich kid, from a dysfunctional family (fifty some odd brothers and sisters) who became a religious fanatic has caused so much more grief than he was ever worth. For once I know someone whom I wish had become a witness. Now I want him to become a corpse, but only he and the other guilty ones. I greatly fear a mass attack with a lot of innocent people who have already suffered so much suffering yet again while the fat cats flee. I do hope we insert troops and dig him out of whatever hole he climbs in. I think it may take years to get them all and that we will have other tragedies but I do believe with all my heart that we will get this man and the others like him. I hope when his group is wiped out that they don't stop there. Anyway, thank you again. -
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My Thanks
by Grunt ini just wanted to say my personal thanks as an american citizen to all of you whose governments have been so supporive and who are stepping up as friends during this difficult time.
i particularly thank england for her solid support even in small things like this.
it means a lot to me that others should care and share our pain.. "in an unprecedented move the us national anthem will be played during a special changing of the guard ceremony to be held at buckingham palace at 1130bst on thursday.".
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Grunt
Hi Farkel,
Well, I do have a gun, love to shoot it and do have lots of ammunition, but hope I never have to shoot anything but snakes and varmints. Farkel, you keep talking about being broke, and I just don't understand how a smart guy like you could be. Still, if you are remember that its cheaper to live in Alabama than probably anywhere else except some Latin American country and the living is good! You'd have to cut back on cussing people to their faces as almost everybody down here is pretty polite and real well armed. Still, I got a little peice of paradise on the edge of a game reserve where you could put in a garden and live a good life. If that doesn't appeal and you find yourself in Florida, I am good for a few good meals and I have a spare room. I really hope it is all a joke about the hard times, if not I would be glad to front you a little grocery money. I hope I don't offend you saying that. You take care and don't waste your talents on assasination except for the vitriolic assaination of the character of the phoneys in the Tower. I am so aggavated with the terroists right now I just really can't even think about the Witnesses. I wish you well.Ladonna, thank you again. If you and yours are ever in Florida, the same thing I said to Farkel applies, I would be happy to grill you some ribs!
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NATO INVOKES ARTICLE V - Serious
by Amazing inwhen nato invokes article v, it is more than just one member asking for support from the other member states, but article v invocation means all member states view the attack as an attack on them all.
in other words, nato aliance is at war with those responsible, and will support the us lead, which will now hold not only the terrorists responsible, but hold those nations that host them as equally responsible.. "brussels, belgium (cnn) -- nato has unanimously declared the hijack attacks on the u.s. to be an assault against all member states.".
"it is the first time in 52 years that the alliance has invoked article v -- the nato self-defence charter that says if one member state is under attack all other member nations would defend it.".
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Grunt
I think good advice and deep thought will prevail in this instance. I am deeply sorry for any who are persecuted because of being Arabic, or looking Arabic, and I think it is rare. I work with people who are Arabic and they are nervous but there have been no problems in our area. Sadly, as was the case with the Japanese and the Germans in WWII they were recruited and they were used. German Americans were helping Hitler get his assembly lines squared away. Japanese Americans gave information on where the ships were and how the situation was for the attack on our navy at Pearl Harbor. Other Japanese and German Americans died fighting for this country. It is just a fact that any national group with a large immigrant group in a nation will look for and probably find some support in that group. If I were getting on a plane and noticed five Arab looking men parking a car next to mine and then later I heard that the planes were blown up, I would call back and notify someone. This just happened, guess what, they were the ones who did it. If you are looking for a white supremacist, I suggest you check out the white people.
Utopian Reformist, I think you sorely underestimate the average American. You said,
"our average mainstream media minded american has NO IDEA what a sikh is or where they come from. Most americans do not know the difference
between Shiite and Sunni's either, let alone the countries in which they reside. However, I'll bet those same americans know what happened on "Ally McBeal or Friends or Big Brother" right? I'll bet they know the lyrics to the top ten hits from J-Lo, Maraiah, Destiny's Child, N'SYNC, right?These are the reasons the american mind is not ready to handle international matters."
You couldn't be more wrong. I am an average American. I know nothing of Ally McBeal or of Big Brother. I do know about the Sikhs. I know the difference between Shiites and Sunni also, it reminds me of the difference between the LDS and the branch that broke off. I loved some of the poetry by Kipling which directly referred to
Sikhs also. I do know a little about Mariah Carey and if you are implying that to appreciate a voice like hers is to somehow be inferior, well, maybe you need to become better informed. I've never heard of J'lo, I guess you are just more into that scene than me. Next you said:"I am sorry for the current and incoming generations of americans. Perhaps, globalization may sharpen our senses and wake this nation,"
If you are going to pity anyone pity our generation. Assuming you are a "boomer." We are going to fall just short of some pretty wonderful improvements in every area including length of and quality of life. There is a large group of kids in this country who are getting fantastic educations and through computers and dual enrollment classes are so far ahead of where I was at that age that it doesn't bear examination.
Next you said
"While everyone is gadget conscious and electronically savvy, their foreign counterparts are able to grown their own food, handle weapons and animals and travel without assistance or machinery. No matter how angry our youth may seem today, they are not trained, nor even ready to be trained to confront what may become WWIII.globalization may sharpen our senses and wake this nation, if not, occupation by foreign enemies will for a certainty.
Our kids can not only grow their own food, they will grow it for the rest of a largely unfed world, never doubt it. Travel without assistance??? Where do you live? Half the kids in our area have their own cars, tour Europe with the high school band, go to Mexico or Latin America with their church, apply for their first jobs after college across the nation. My son't first job was in Hartford, we are from Alabama and Florida. Use weapons? I was raised with them as was my son. As a matter of fact we have far too many weapons, not too few, and this generation of young men can train for war just as well as ours did. Were you ever in the military? Believe me, send these boys to Paris Island and they will come out just as Gung Ho and bald headed as we did. Finally, you said,
"globalization may sharpen our senses and wake this nation, if not, occupation by foreign enemies will for a certainty." No foreign nation will ever occupy this country except by immigration. There are too many people like me, and I hope you, who would prevent it. Open your eyes and look around, things are not as you seem to see them. America is on the cutting edge of technology and humanitarianism and it isn't all due to the older generations.
Don't worry about America. We will be fine.
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My Thanks
by Grunt ini just wanted to say my personal thanks as an american citizen to all of you whose governments have been so supporive and who are stepping up as friends during this difficult time.
i particularly thank england for her solid support even in small things like this.
it means a lot to me that others should care and share our pain.. "in an unprecedented move the us national anthem will be played during a special changing of the guard ceremony to be held at buckingham palace at 1130bst on thursday.".
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Grunt
I just wanted to say my personal thanks as an American citizen to all of you whose governments have been so supporive and who are stepping up as friends during this difficult time. I particularly thank England for her solid support even in small things like this. It means a lot to me that others should care and share our pain.
"In an unprecedented move the US National Anthem will be played during a special changing of the guard ceremony to be held at Buckingham Palace at 1130BST on Thursday."
I sincerely hope the criminals and their real supporters can be apprehended without great loss of life to anyone. Too many lives have already been lost.
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NATO INVOKES ARTICLE V - Serious
by Amazing inwhen nato invokes article v, it is more than just one member asking for support from the other member states, but article v invocation means all member states view the attack as an attack on them all.
in other words, nato aliance is at war with those responsible, and will support the us lead, which will now hold not only the terrorists responsible, but hold those nations that host them as equally responsible.. "brussels, belgium (cnn) -- nato has unanimously declared the hijack attacks on the u.s. to be an assault against all member states.".
"it is the first time in 52 years that the alliance has invoked article v -- the nato self-defence charter that says if one member state is under attack all other member nations would defend it.".
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Grunt
In my opinion, what we need is to breathe deep, look around, accept the offers of help from other intelligence networks, especially Russia's, find out just who was involved and how deeply. After making sure of our targets then talk with the good people of the country if we can locate any. If we can't then talk to those who oppose terroism in the country next door, if there are any. I think we can find a country that would allow us to use them as a base to go in from and we need that. I personally do not think bin laden could do this alone. I think he had a coaliton of the radical terrorists in several countries and money from sympathisers in more than one country. I think bin laden was a key player no matter who else made up the cast and I hold the Taliban responsible for protecting him, but I think we should talk to them first. Present our evidence, which is comeing in quickly, give them a chance to hand over the guilty ones, do that with each country involved. Only if we can't get them this way should any widespread attack be mounted. If we do attack, then we need to mount a armed intrusion, not just air power. Before any of this is done we need to tighten things up at home, guard our drinking water and other such systems, watch closely those groups attached to these people. I know that these people no more represent all Moslems than the KKK represents all christians, but they do find their followers and supporters out of that community and that must be monitored. After all of these things have been considered and acted on, then and only then should we do all that we can do, without pulling punches, to eliminate not only the people but the infrastructure of any nation that continues to harbor the criminals that did this thing. I don't want ANY innocent people killed, though I know that is a dream. These poor people in Afghanistan have suffered so much already. I don't want us to add to it unless there is no other way to get these criminals out. I think the last thing we need is a feud, as that only escalates. So we should take our time, act slowly but surely and commit a hundred percent even if it means losing more people in the operation than were lost in their attack. There is no place these people can hide if we are really determined to get them, however it should not be done in the heat of passion but with the advice and support of moral people around the world. Everyone should know it is an act of justice not flexing our muscles or trying to push any nation around. I think this is a much bigger and more international group than seems to be the opinion of many. They must be taken down, and taken down as completely as possible, without thought to costs of any kind when we finally get down to it.
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The number of jw is reducing?
by Nicolas ini read an article on watchtower observer about it http://watchtower.observer.org/apps/pbcs.dll/article?date=20010621&category=jwandsociety10&artno=10621002&ref=ar.
while, i was a jw, i remember that they told us that when the number of jw who go out will be bigger than the number of new jw who enter, it will be the great tribulation.
do you think that the gb will try to enter this idea in the mind of the jw?
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Grunt
As the Witness youth are leaving or not even getting baptized, it would seem that the average age would increase, right? Wouldn't that affect the 1% allowed for death? Does anyone know the average age and whether it has increased or decreased? Maybe having a lot of third world families, with lots of kids could have brought it down. I would like to know. Thanks for all the work on this.