Greg Stafford showed his true colors back on H20 when another Witness on the board ratted him out for being there debating and he had to put his tail between his legs and leave. After leaving he sneaked back in with another persona and bragged on himself, his skills in argument and his patience in putting up with the other guy. He didn't know his real name showed up too. When caught he tried to deny it then tried to twist it around as though he knew it. Nope. I won't be buying his book.
Posts by Grunt
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7Greg Stafford's New Book
by Defender inafter reading the first of three dissertations, i felt like posting some early comments for whatever they are worth.. in greg's first dissertation, i believe he has taken a courageous step in presenting solid soul-searching questions, especially for thinking jws who are seeing inconsistencies with some of the organization's procedural and doctrinal issues.
although it took me some time to grasp greg's writing style, i thought the first dissertation started off well.
he laid down the premises and provided insightful questions.
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Ex's Rage Generating Unstoppable Momentum
by Englishman inthis evening i have just watched a news item that concerned a baby that has been abandoned by the side of a busy main road.
the bbc did a short feature on people who had been found after being literally left on a doorstep somewhere as a new-born baby.. one woman, in her early 60s now, said that she never could get any peace because she just didnt know why her unknown mother had left her on a strangers doorstep.
she didnt know her own name, she didnt even know when she was born or where.
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Grunt
I couldn't agree more. It isn't as bad as it used to be, but sometimes a rage fills me. I don't hate the poor dupes on the bottom, though I don't have much respect for them either, but I do hate with a purple passion the slimey maggots at the top. These arrogant,evil old bastards have damaged so many. It really does make you want to get a handful of their gnarly little necks and squeese till they fill just a little of the pain they have dished out. I know. Just another cult. No different than most other cults I guess, but the awful twist they give to the word "Truth" is reflected in the "clean" look they like to project. They really are trying to appear as angels of light, offering comfort, peace and love, when in fact they are creatures of darkness, making themselves into the only "Channel" to god and pretending THEY will even "render" the ransom, turning people against their own families and countries, and denying them success or children in this life if they really are "whole-souled." They are as most trouble makers are, their own worst punishment. They don't need me to put a knot on their heads, they will butt it up against their own lies until they are bloody. They deny themselves the pleasure of an extended or even immediate family unless they too are cult members, deny themselves so many friends, deny themselves real careers, and deny themselves the joys of parenthood. My poor befuddled daughter says she wouldn't consider "bringing children into this system" and sad to say I am really glad. I would hate to have grandchildren brought up in this cult, grandchildren raised to look down their noses at everyone else in the world, grandchildren that would have to be denied the pleasures of just being normal, and grandchildren I couldn't visit. Thank God, the children the Witnesses do have are leaving. I hope and pray "This Generation" is indeed their last. I hope the next generation abandons the cult.
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Latest Deception - WT 6/15/02
by metatron inquote from the latest magazine:.
"can we realistically expect to see the hoped-for.
'new world within a single generation'"?.
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Grunt
There was once a guy who predicted the end of the world on a certain date, his followers sold all their goods and went with him up on a mountain. When it didn't happen some of the disillusioned rose up and killed him. Which really made his prophecy come true. HIS world did end that night.
I hope it is that way with the Witnesses. I hope this really is THEIR LAST GENERATION. -
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The Apostate's Best Friend
by metatron inmany of you deeply desire the wreckage of the watchtower.
society.. take heart, i shall tell you a great secret.. we have a man in power who is fufilling this great task.. if you want to destroy the wts, an old senile lump.
won't do - even ronald reagan was a successful president,.
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Grunt
Dumbed to Death. What could be more fitting? I love it.
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Synopsis of the Jehovah's Witnesses
by Grunt inwhat you need to know about, "jehovah's witnesses.
1. jehovah's witnesses don't think just the bible is enough:.
the watchtower, 5/1/57, pg.
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Grunt
Insight book, vol. 2, page 244: "While malicious lying is definitely condemned in the Bible, this does not mean that a person is under obligation to divulge truthful information to people who are not entitled to it. Jesus Christ counseled: "Do not give what is holy to dogs, neither throw your pearls before swine, that they may never trample them under their feet and turn around and rip you open." (Mt 7:6)"
No, I don't think you are nitpicking. I do think we are discussing two different things and taking what they said two different ways. Please pardon a long answer, I am always hopeing that a sincere Witness who is rethinking his or her view will be reading and I like to document the Tower's lies whenever possible.
When I was talking about the Society's view on truth, it was not in regards to with holding information but in regards to telling outright lies. It seems to me that "not divulging the truth" in their case often means telling an outright lie. Though there are many instances where they did refuse to give information, in regards to known child abusers and not making public which blood factions are acceptable and such (Biopure anyone?), that are probably as bad.
Here is just a little of what I have in my mind as the Jehovah's Witness version of not "casting their pearls before swine." They are prone to tell an outright lie because they don't think someone is ENTITLED to the truth. The examples below are the sort of thing I am talking about.
Like saying in essence "We don't punish people for taking blood" and then doing it. Or "We would never be a part of that Whore, the United Nations, like the Churches of Christendom are" and then becoming a supporter of it by being an NGO on its list. Loud buzzers should have gone off in every Witnesses head that heard about these. Brooklyn never intended that any Witness WOULD hear about it. They love the lie. They are a lie.
These are taken from other posts that have appeared on this board and others. The first one is from Kent.
By reading the court's ruling on the application filed by the Watchtower Society, it will be readily apparent to anyone familiar with Jehovah's Witnesses that Watchtower officials have grossly misrepresented crucial facts concerning Jehovah's Witnesses and the blood doctrine. Here is one key paragraph regarding children and the blood issue:
As regards the alleged involvement of children the applicant association [The Watchtower Society] submits that children cannot become members of the association but only participate, together with their parents, in the religious activities of the community. In respect of the refusal of blood transfusion, the applicant association submits that there are no religious sanctions for a Jehovah's Witness who chooses to accept blood transfusion and that, therefore, the fact that the religious doctrine of Jehovah's Witnesses is against blood transfusion cannot amount to a threat to "public health". Emphasis ours
It is not unheard of for children to be baptized, and to become members of the association before reaching the age of ten, although most Jehovah's Witness children are probably in their early teens when they officially become members of the congregation, and subject to its judicial process.
As for a Witness who accepts one of the banned blood products, or a whole blood transfusion, the Watchtower's position has been quite clear for four decades:"...the receiver of a blood transfusion must be cut off from God's people by excommunication or disfellowshiping....if in the future he persists in accepting blood transfusions or in donating blood toward the carrying out of this medical practice upon others, he shows that he has really not repented, but is deliberately opposed to God's requirements. As a rebellious opposer and unfaithful example to fellow members of the Christian congregation he must be cut off therefrom by disfellowshiping. - The Watchtower 01/15/1961 pp. 63, 64 Emphasis ours
Here is a direct link to the Commission's ruling on the Watchtower's application. Scroll down towards the end of the document and you will be able to verify this deception: http://hudoc.echr.coe.int/Hudoc1doc/hedec/sift/3641.txtWhat are the responsibilities of NGOs associated with DPI?"
Since the founding days of the United Nations in San Francisco, NGOs have made valuable contributions to the international community by drawing attention to issues, suggesting ideas and programmes, disseminating information and mobilizing public opinion in support of the UN and its Specialized Agencies. Association with DPI constitutes a commitment to that effect. Associated NGOs are expected to devote a portion of their information programmes to promoting knowledge of the United Nations' principles and activities."I hope that you also notice: " …mobilizing public opinion in support of the
UN and its Specializes Agencies.."!There you'll find :
Legend:DPI: Organization associated with the Department of Public Information.
E/D: Organization associated with the Department of Public Information and the Economic and Social Council.
UNA: United Nations Associations.
NGOs listed by region NGOs listed alphabetically NGOs listed by subject
Take a look , to get some of the names, from the letter V to the letter W:
http://www.un.org/MoreInfo/ngolink/ngodir/NGODirAlph/alphabet.htm)
"…..VAKA - PEACE MOUVEMENT
VERBAND DER AKADEMIKERINNEN OSTERREICHS (VAO) VERENIGING VOOR DE VERENIGDE NATIES
VERIFICATION TECHNOLOGY INFORMATION CENTRE
VETERANS AGAINST NUCLEAR ARMS
VETERANS FOR PEACE INC VIETNAM VETERANS OF AMERICA FOUNDATION VIRGINIA GILDERSLEEVE INTERNATIONAL FUND FOR UNIVERSITY WOMEN
WAINWRIGHT HOUSE
WAR & PEACE FOUNDATION
WAR RESISTERS INTERNATIONAL
WATCHTOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY OF NEW YORK
WATER ENVIRONMENT FEDERATION
How is it possible to reconcile the WTBS position as an NGO with the
United Nations Organisation and these printed statements, from the
WTBS concerning the U.N.Organization???*** re 241-2 33 Judging the Infamous Harlot ***(published in 1988)
17 In what way is this symbolic wild beast full of blasphemous names?
In that men have set up this multinational idol as a substitute for God’s Kingdom—to accomplish what God says his Kingdom alone can accomplish. (Daniel 2:44; Matthew 12:18, 21)
What is remarkable about John’s vision, though, is that Babylon the Great is riding the scarlet-colored wild beast. True to the prophecy, Babylonish religion, particularly in Christendom, has linked itself with the League of Nations and its successor. "
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So I guess it's finally my turn <grin>
by noidea inwell i had a visit today from an elder (related through marriage) about my non-meeting attendance.
he let me know that the circuit overseer is due in for a visit in 2 weeks and the elders in my congregation felt that it would be good for them to pay me a visit.
i have already declined other such offers.. he asked me why i was not attending the meetings (didn't reply to that) and that if i had a problem that i could talk about it.
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Grunt
Hi noidea,
I wouldn't give the sumbitches a chance to come into my home if it is to try and DISCIPLINE me. That is how they see it. The gall. They return evil for good. You can't believe a word they say because to them telling you the truth is "casting their pearls before swine." You aren't "entitled" to the truth as you have identified yourself with the "man of lawlessness" and are to be hated. No, might let one in if he is related but they won't be coming in to my house in the form of some kind of authority. They have none. All they have on me, or you probably, is a hostage or two to use for emotional blackmail. I would advise your husband to consider the best that can happen, consider what will probably happen, consider the worst thing that could happen and then decide whether it is worth allowing them into your home. If he does let them in, I would have a camera rolling and might want a lawyer present. Treat'em like the I.R.S., only remember the I.R.S. only wants your money. These birds would like to take away your family if you don't tow their line. -
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Synopsis of the Jehovah's Witnesses
by Grunt inwhat you need to know about, "jehovah's witnesses.
1. jehovah's witnesses don't think just the bible is enough:.
the watchtower, 5/1/57, pg.
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Grunt
Thanks lastcall.....hmmm....how do you decide who is "entitled" to the truth? When you know that someone is only telling you the truth when they think you deserve it then it is hard to believe them about anything. I do my best to tell the truth to everyone. I don't do it for them, I do it for me.
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Spiritual barfothon
by Fatal Error inevening all,.
before i forget it all, here's the gist of our co's talk today:.
the base scripture was psalms 91, especially 91:3 "for he himself will deliver you from the trap of the birdcatcher, from the pestilences causing adversities.".
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Grunt
Thanks. I remember way back when Sinutko (sp) used that reference but in a different way. I haven't attended a meeting in so long, it brings it all back hearing it described. The last one I attended I had to walk out of, I just couldn't take the Watchtower study with all so eager to use the questions they had underlined the answers too the night before. Not a real question was asked nor were any real answers given. It hurts me to think my parents, daughter and many others are a part of that charade. They are too good for that.
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Synopsis of the Jehovah's Witnesses
by Grunt inwhat you need to know about, "jehovah's witnesses.
1. jehovah's witnesses don't think just the bible is enough:.
the watchtower, 5/1/57, pg.
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Grunt
Thanks for the quote dungbeetle, and I agree. I guess most groups are easy to get along with as long as you totally agree with them. Fortunately, most will still speak to you even if you dare to disagree, and most will still love dear old Mom and Dad. I think one of the things that bothers me most about Witnesses is their arrogance which coupled with their scriptural ignorance is almost unbearable. They will disown their parents or children over questioning the 7,000 year creative day when they admit they don't understand it, and then ignore one of the ten commandments which they do understand (Honor your Mother and Father) by shunning them. Amazing what a cult can do to normal people. I do think you have to be a pretty selfish person at heart to sell your siblings or parents, even for eternity or should that be especially for eternity?
Tera - You have made by day by suggesting you might be able to use it. Thanks.
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Synopsis of the Jehovah's Witnesses
by Grunt inwhat you need to know about, "jehovah's witnesses.
1. jehovah's witnesses don't think just the bible is enough:.
the watchtower, 5/1/57, pg.
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Grunt
What you need to know about, "Jehovah's Witnesses."
1. Jehovah's Witnesses don't think just the Bible is enough:The Watchtower, 5/1/57, pg. 274 -
"God has not arranged for [His] Word to speak independently
or to shine life-giving truths by itself.
It is through his organization God provides this light."
2. Jehovah's Witnesses are told by this Organization that they should avoid, and shun family members, even parents or children, if they oppose the Organization.
w81 9/15 29 If a Relative Is Disfellowshiped: "... Such a person is still related by blood or marriage, and so there may be some limited need to care for necessary family matters. Nonetheless, it is not as if he were living in the same home where contact and conversation could not be avoided."
3. Jehovah's Witnesses are told that not all people are "entitled" to the truth. Lying is OK sometimes, in fact telling the truth would be like "casting their pearls before swine."
Insight book, vol. 2, page 244: "While malicious lying is definitely condemned in the Bible, this does not mean that a person is under obligation to divulge truthful information to people who are not entitled to it. Jesus Christ counseled: "Do not give what is holy to dogs, neither throw your pearls before swine, that they may never trample them under their feet and turn around and rip you open." (Mt 7:6)"
4. Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe Jesus is the mediator for all men, notice the brackets in this answer in a questions from the readers quote:
w79 11/15 Benefiting from "One Mediator Between God and Man" p. 2620 What, then, is Christ’s role in this program of salvation? Paul proceeds to say: "There is one God, and one mediator between God and men [not, all men], a man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all."—1 Tim. 2:5, 6.
5 Jehovah's Witnesses divide people into numerous classes, and then sub-divide. They teach only those going to heaven, the "144,000" are members of the New Covenant of Christ and that this covenant ends when the last one of them on earth dies. They teach that all other men are not really part of Christ's Covenant and that they only benefit as they assoicate with the 144,000, just as the "alien residents" benefited from being among the real Jews. They dare to take the role of Christ away from him and apply it to themselves by limiting his covenant to only them. From the same issue of the Watchtower quoted above w79 11/15
They recognize that they are not spiritual Israelites in the new covenant mediated by Jesus Christ, nor part of the "chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation."—1 Pet. 2:9.24 Yet they do benefit from the operation of the new covenant. They benefit from this just as, in ancient Israel, the "alien resident" benefited from residing in among the Israelites who were in the Law covenant.—Ex. 20:10; Lev. 19:10, 33, 34; Rev. 7:9-15.
25 To keep in relationship with "our Savior, God," the "great crowd" needs to remain united with the remnant of spiritual Israelites.
In the February 15, 1991 issue they make no bones about it:
How and when would sinfulness be overcome? God first arranged for 144,000 heavenly ‘priests to our God to rule as kings over the earth’ with Christ Jesus. (Revelation 5:9, 10; 7:4; 14:1-3) Through them the benefits of the ransom will gradually be applied to mankind over a period of a thousand years.—1 Corinthians 15:24-26; Revelation 21:3, 4.Through THEM the benefits of the the ransom will be GRADUALLY applied!!!
So, if you stop "associating" with these men they say you give up Christ as they are really your only connection. Christ deals with them, not you. In another place they refer to Christ as "Their Lawyer, Not Yours."
6. Jehovah's Witnesses are quick to mock other religions and to claim they are different. Notice how they condemn religon's who change their beliefs:
It is a serious matter to represent God and Christ in one way, then find that our understanding of the major teachings and fundamental doctrines of the Scriptures was in error, and then after that, to go back to the very doctrines that, by years of study, we had thoroughly determined to be in error. CHRISTIANS CANNOT BE VACILLATING - 'wishy washy' - about such fundamental teachings. WHAT CONFIDENCE CAN ONE PUT IN THE SINCERITY OR JUDGEMENT OF SUCH PERSONS." (Watchtower 5/15/76 p 298)
Then notice how they view their own changes in the Watchtower January 1/2000:
18 As the years pass, Jehovah continues to give us further clarification of truth, including a clearer understanding of his prophetic word. (Proverbs 4:18) In recent years, we have been encouraged to look again with deeper understanding at – among other things – the generation that will not pass away before the end comes, the parable of the sheep and the goats, the disgusting thing and when it will stand in a holy place, the new covenant, the transfiguration, and the temple vision of the book of Ezekiel. It may be difficult at times to understand such updated explanations, but the reasons for them become clear in due course. If a Christian does not fully understand a new explanation of a scripture, he does well humbly to echo the words of the prophet Micah: “ I will show a waiting attitude for the God of my salvation”-Micah7:7.Jehovah's Witnesses think all church members should eagerly listen to criticism of their churches:
Consequently, is it unchristian today to offer Bible-based comments about anothers religion? The scriptural answer must be No. True, criticism that reveals faults in the teachings or practices of someone’s religion might at first seem severe. Yet, how should one react? Not like those who became violently enraged over Stephen’s criticism. Rather, note the fine reaction of some Athenians who heard Paul’s comments. They accepted the Bible truth and became believers, to their eternal benefit. Compare Acts17:11, 12. Far from being rejected as unchristian then, criticism based on Gods word should be carefully considered, for it can bring real benefits.
Yet, notice how they view criticism of THEIR beliefs and changes of beliefs. With no discussion of the merits of any reason for people disagreeing or leaving they are told to HATE anyone who leaves the fold or any clergy whom they consider to be "The Man of Lawlessness." Anything opponents say is "propaganda" and not to be considered.
w92 7/15
19 The obligation to hate lawlessness also applies to all activity by apostates. Our attitude toward apostates should be that of David, who declared: "Do I not hate those who are intensely hating you, O Jehovah, and do I not feel a loathing for those revolting against you? With a complete hatred I do hate them. They have become to me real enemies." (Psalm 139:21, 22) Modern-day apostates have made common cause with "the man of lawlessness," the clergy of Christendom. (2 Thessalonians 2:3) As loyal Witnesses of Jehovah, we therefore have absolutely nothing in common with them. Being imperfect, our hearts could easily have a tendency toward being critical of our brothers. As individuals, those of "the faithful and discreet slave" are imperfect humans. (Matthew 24:45-47) But this class is faithful and discreet. Apostates capitalize on errors or seeming mistakes made by brothers who take the lead. Our safety lies in avoiding apostate propaganda as though it were poison, which in fact it is.—Romans 16:17, 18.7. In conclusion I would have to say the Jehovah's Witnesses elevate themselves, twist scripture, deny the mediatorship of Christ, limit the New Covenant, change doctrines frequently, encourage others to be critical of the church they attend while denying anyone the right to be critical of the Jehovah's Witness organization. They are even taught to shun their own mothers, fathers, brothers and sisters and treat them as dead, not for a sin but for being critical of "The Organization." In fact they are urged to "Hate" them. They have substituted a man made "Society" for true Christianity. By denying christians the right to partake of the Lord's Evening Meal, the Memorial as they call it, they deny them Christ. In short, from the return of an invisible Christ in 1914 to the denial of Christ as mediator for all men, they preach a DIFFERENT GOSPEL than was preached by Paul and and I think the following scripture applies to them:
Galatians chapt. 1:7 But it is not another; only there are certain ones who are causing YOU trouble and wanting to pervert the good news about the Christ. 8 However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to YOU as good news something beyond what we declared to YOU as good news, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said above, I also now say again, Whoever it is that is declaring to YOU as good news something beyond what YOU accepted, let him be accursed.