void-eater: why is that? Is it because I've been inadvertantly offensive? Because the topic is boring for most people? Because people don't like to think about things like that much? Because there is actually no foundation for seeing a benevolent god in the bible and so people don't want to talk about it?
Just wondering, you see- I like to explore certain things... :)
rimfiredancing
JoinedPosts by rimfiredancing
-
34
I'm curious- why 'god'?
by rimfiredancing ini know how i got sucked into the b0rg- i was a very spiritual, very young and very emotionally damaged 19 year old (raised in a violent on all levels home, the usual stuff) who was having- and had always had- a lot of 'supernatural' experiences that had caused my mother to declare me 'evil' (and try to get me exorcised on the odd occasion).
i'd become confused and was trying to work out if these things were, in fact, a sign of my rejection from 'god'.
if i'd known then what i know now about the christian god, i'd have told the jw's to stick it.
-
-
rimfiredancing
-
34
I'm curious- why 'god'?
by rimfiredancing ini know how i got sucked into the b0rg- i was a very spiritual, very young and very emotionally damaged 19 year old (raised in a violent on all levels home, the usual stuff) who was having- and had always had- a lot of 'supernatural' experiences that had caused my mother to declare me 'evil' (and try to get me exorcised on the odd occasion).
i'd become confused and was trying to work out if these things were, in fact, a sign of my rejection from 'god'.
if i'd known then what i know now about the christian god, i'd have told the jw's to stick it.
-
-
rimfiredancing
serotonin_wraith: I was unaware I'd claimed to be free and wise, I was simply talking about my own experiences, which as I believe I mentioned had been happening to me since childhood. I didn't mention at all what those were, so to my mind you're making a giant leap of supposition in the remarks that you made. Am I interested in providing 'proof' for you? Not one iota. I have done my work with many skeptics who are highly intelligent and aware, and they have always been very content with the results of the work that I do. I talk about my life as it is, not as having to defend, prove or justify myself to anyone at all. I made the post out of genuine interest in how people's minds work around the topic of the god of the bible, not because I'm interested in someone armchair analysing me with regards to aspects of my personal life.
As it stands, I wasn't interested in those who have never actually looked deeply at the bible, I was asking about those who *have* and still believe that there is some benevolent god lurking about in the bible. I fully get how the uninformed create their belief systems; I'm curious how *informed* people see things simply because I have no idea how that can be. Just because *I* can't envisage it, doesn't mean others can't- I'm a psychonaut, I like to explore things.
(Out of interest, my children also carry the same ability as I do, in various ways and to various degrees, as did my grandmother, who told me it comes from the line of her family, who long had a reputation for 'feyness'. It's a heritage descended partly from the Irish Rom. I'm also a social scientist (as in the branch of study, NOT scientology, just to head off any possible confusion), have studied the psychology of deep trauma recovery, kinesiology, alternative medicine, am a constant student of parapsychology, just to name a few things. It disinterests me when people jump to blanket conclusions.) -
34
I'm curious- why 'god'?
by rimfiredancing ini know how i got sucked into the b0rg- i was a very spiritual, very young and very emotionally damaged 19 year old (raised in a violent on all levels home, the usual stuff) who was having- and had always had- a lot of 'supernatural' experiences that had caused my mother to declare me 'evil' (and try to get me exorcised on the odd occasion).
i'd become confused and was trying to work out if these things were, in fact, a sign of my rejection from 'god'.
if i'd known then what i know now about the christian god, i'd have told the jw's to stick it.
-
-
rimfiredancing
I know how I got sucked into the b0rg- I was a very spiritual, very young and very emotionally damaged 19 year old (raised in a violent on all levels home, the usual stuff) who was having- and had always had- a lot of 'supernatural' experiences that had caused my mother to declare me 'evil' (and try to get me exorcised on the odd occasion). I'd become confused and was trying to work out if these things were, in fact, a sign of my rejection from 'god'. If I'd known then what I know now about the christian god, I'd have told the jw's to stick it.
My psychic experiences didn't end when I became a dub, they just made me desperately terrified that I was, in fact, evil and that it was a sign that no matter how much I tried I could never get god's approval. Now that I'm out, funnily enough these things are getting stronger all the time and I'm more and more comfortable with what happens around me- it's only taken 10 years!
What I'm headtilty about is this: why, when people can read for themselves how murderous, bloodthirsty, vengeful, angry, hostile, genocidal, jealous, petty, demanding, unforgiving and dictating the god of the bible is, do they still have an interest outside the b0rg? I'm not looking to be biblebashed and I'm not interested in being converted (it's impossible, amongst other things I'm psychic (and a very strong one), an energetic healer and someone around whom 'supernatural' things happen all the time, which means I'm either demon possessed or a 'witch' according to the bible and fit only for burning, spitting on, denouncing etc etc, so *very* subzero interest in conversion).
I am, however, curious about how people equate a 'kind and loving god' with the one presented in the bible: the bible supports slavery, witchburning (or stoning, shunning, whatever you like), genocide, the hatred of women, the devaluation of children- the god of the old testament (which, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought was the same god that jesus was talking about) advocated offering your daughters to be raped to death in order to be a good host, justifies (and actually declares as 'godly') incest, being prepared to offer one's own children as blood sacrifices (despite other cultures being condemned for exactly the same thing) and heaps of other hypocrisies. Ever read The Harlot at the Side of the Road? Amazing stuff.
So mmm, because I am who I am, I'm wondering: how anyone can still find anything in that book worth paying attention to, especially after actually reading it? Is there anything in there that actually gives creedence to the god it's about, or does one have to do the same mental contortions and distortions that the b0rg do (obviously for different aims) in order to assign some kind of loving benevolence to a god that, up to the end of the book itself, is quite happy to obliterate any resistance or different view at all? Given that god is written like that, is it any wonder that religions that adhere to any kind of dogma based on the god of the bible (including islam) have the same way of being- intolerant, vengeful, insisting on the deaths of all unbelievers, etc?
(To be clear, I find *all* religious writings odd in the same way, that anyone could take them seriously after reading them). -
35
Home Schooling
by WTWizard init seems that there are a lot of witlesses that opt to home school their children.
i had a family in my former congregation that did that, because the kids did not want to be around worldly people (sounds familiar?).
it also seems that they are speeding things up, so the children can get out there and pioneer that much sooner.
-
-
rimfiredancing
I have no interest in sending my children to school, not because of religion, but because I want my children to be able to think for themselves.
Socialisation is mentioned in some of the posts and I'm curious about what people think is advantageous in 'socialisation': the history of modern schooling is based on the model created in the mid 19th century by wealthy business owners who were looking for people intelligent enough to run their factories and businesses, but NOT intelligent enough to take them over. This is why even 'gifted' children are only supported IF they conform to the social standards. And, quite frankly, western civilisation's social standards suck.
We are currently living in a time when the question of human- and planetary- continuance is up in the air because western civilisation teaches its members that consumerism before intelligent living is the 'good citizen' thing to do, where people are taught to NOT think about things too deeply (because people who are awake make crap consumers), where people are passive in the face of crimes against humanity (the non-US watched in horror as Bush was RE-elected and here in Australia the thinkers were sent into despair by the same re-election of Howard) and crimes against the planet and life are simply swept away with puerile arguments about 'economic growth' and 'we have to have JOBS, don't we? stupid greenie!'
Yes. Try being an intelligent and AWARE kid in the 'education' system, as both myself and my partner were. We very soon learned what education was actually about, which was the production of people who were obedient, unthinking and prepared to go along with anything the authorities tell them regardless of the weight of evidence before them (much like JW's, really). Both myself and my partner got top scholastic marks despite never studying a thing (Michael actually used school for sleeping from grade 5 onwards and slept his way to brilliant grade 12 results, I used it for reading from grade 4, did grade 12 three times in grades 8,9 and 10 with top results each time but was not allowed to be credited with it because it was against school policy to put kids into much higher grades than their age). We were bored by the narrow mindedness, the demands for conformity and toe-ing the line, the blatant racism, sexism and speciesim in the material taught (of COURSE humans are the dominant species- what other species has been able to drive the planet to the brink of extinction? of COURSE civilisation is superior, it did all those indigenous communities SUCH a favour in invading their lands, killing their people and bringing them the work ethic, exposure to a superior culture, the knowledge of the joys of a hard days labour, blah blah blah vomit).
Michael and I have little interest in spending time with most people, who for the most part have always found us 'weird' because we can THINK outside the boxes that civilisation strives to create for people's minds. Our kids choose what kind of schooling they experience, and have chosen (at various times) Steiner, homeschooling, public school and unschooling. They are frequently commented upon as being kids with amazingly mature and broad outlooks, they can see through crap from a mile away, they are immune to peer pressure, have zero interest in the invading culture they've been raised in and are generally considered amazing people. We think it's because we've gone to a lot of trouble to protect their essential natures from domination, bullying adults (and bullying children), cultural programming (we don't watch TV at all) and indoctrination.
I am glad that psychologically, emotionally and physically, my children are much better prepared for the coming crash than anyone else, child or adult, that we know outside our family. -
28
Jehovah's Witnesses Are NOT Conscientious & They Don't Really Care!
by minimus inwitnesses try to make it sound as though they are very very conscientious people.
they care about you, your spiritual welfare, your everlasting welfare....but nothing could be further from the truth!
if they truly cared, they would see to it that they reached people to give them the lifesaving truth.
-
-
rimfiredancing
I know about the dopamine addiction of western society. Are you familiar with the Reciprocality project/Progstone? Alan Carter has a lot to say about dopamine and its connection with people's inability to think clearly or critically, as well as its ability to inhibit the 'big picture'/connection mechanism in thinking.
If you are familiar with it, both my partner and I are natural mappers, he's fully immune, I'm partial (due to too many years having my head bashed by societal memes). I'm moving to the rainforest to regain my immunity. :) -
53
Things You HATED About Being a JW
by minimus inthere were a few things that i hated about being a witness.. i love music and live concerts.
quite often i'd have to play my music privately or hide an album cover for fear it might "stumble" someone.
i hated worrying whether someone was going to somehow get "stumbled.. regarding going to concerts, it seemed that certain artists only came to town on a meeting night and i'd miss the shows.. what did you hate about being a jehovah's witness?.
-
-
rimfiredancing
Losing my spirituality and eventually any desire to be spiritual, losing my hope in the goodness of human beings, my trust in a higher form of being; struggling with my increasing grief over the deaths of billions of people simply because they hadn't heard 'the truth', the nightmares about armaggedon, the fear, the constant strain of watching myself in case I 'slipped up' and was found unworthy, the self hatred, watching my gentle and intelligent son gradually shut down due to the weight of stupidity, ignorance, prejudice and arrogance around him, the blatant hypocrisy that was always justified in the most facile ways, the condescension towards and hatred of women and children, the slavery, the twisting of scriptures to suit their ends, the covering over of child abuse. The way we were expected to destroy the spirits of our children in order to 'mould them' into 'good christian witnesses'; the whole concept of a god who couldn't love its creations unless they were something utterly different to what they actually were, the emotional, psychological and spiritual abuse when all I was striving to do was be a loving and caring person.
I was utterly bewildered and creeped out by the obsession, paranoia and constant focus on sex, the possibility of sexual sin, sex AS sin, being female as sin, being normally sexually healthy as sin, enjoying sex being a sin, having brothers speak to my breasts, the shame women were meant to feel over breastfeeding, my disgust at having to breastfeed in a hot, airless room that reeked of baby poo because of the disposable nappies in case some brother might be 'stumbled' at the sight of a baby hidden beneath a blanket feeding. I eventually came to hate being around such sick people. I loaathed the whole idea of 'stumbling', which was a tool that people used in order to get other people to live the way THEY wanted people to behave.
It's taken me a decade to even explore the concept of spirituality again and I have zero interest in that being tied into any form of religion. I no longer believe or have any interest in the concept of a 'god', let alone one that has an interest in its creations; there is no salvation because we don't need it, there's nothing fundamentally evil about or wrong with being incarnated. I love phsyical incarnation, being three dimensional and the natural world around me. If there is something after death it's unknown and therefore it's nothing more than a mind experiment to conjecture over it, I'm open to mystery because the world is full of them. I no longer resist the idea of the deaths of billions because a large portion of the planet are so spirit damaged that they will destroy the entire planet and everything on it in pursuit of their delusions: I don't believe in human superiority above all other species, so it's understandable that a rebalancing will take place. I look forward to the destruction of civilisation and all its toxic memes.
I like my piercings and tattoos- my nose piercing earned me a year of weekly talks aimed directly at me during the service meetings. Now I have more piercings, a tattoo on my back that marks the death of my mother last year: after this baby is born there shall be more tattoos, to mark the births of all of my children symbolically, to represent my relationship with my beloved Michael, to mark the death of my beautiful daughter Lyddie last year just shy of her tenth birthday. I am part Maori and have a love for body art and its symbolism. We are about to move to the rainforest to live in a tipi, with an earth house for winter, we're into self sufficiency in a tribal way, we follow a form of spirituality that is earth based and tribal in its outlook.
My healing is a life long journey. :) -
36
My wife is attending an "Assembly"?
by Shadow1 inmy wife has gone to attend an "assembly" can anyone tell me what goes on at these meetings?.
-"un-believing mate" still very new to all of this.. .
shadow1.
-
-
rimfiredancing
That's an awesome attitude. I'm sad that your wife is getting sucked back into this toxic cult- part of their tactic is the replacement of individual personality with the homogenous persona of 'a good publisher', so it's sad to think of her gradually disappearing beneath the brainwashing. I used to have photos of myself taken back in my time with the b0rg that show a hollow shell of a person wearing the 'correct' facade in an effort to be accepted. I never was, because I couldn't quite give up my 'worldly' habit of thinking things through.
I hope that things turn out as well for you as they can given the situation: her responses to your investigations show that the 'no outside information' rule is already sinking in deep. There's probably little hope that she'll consider any source of information that doesn't have the WT official stamp of approval: the only thing you might do is drop bombs quietly into the conversation, such as asking her about explanations for the society's backflips on the end times, medical proceedures, blood issues and it's policy on not reporting pedophiles to be dealt with by the law. If she still has any open mind at all, this may be a way for doubt to come in, but as others have asserted here, JWs are trained to stop thinking.
I loathe religion, it's the same rubbish everywhere. :/ -
18
can any one help
by ladylove ini cant believe after 20 years of not being a jw that i found this site.. if anyone is willing to read this, and has any knowledge on the subject, i dont want to hate my father.
i am looking for biblical proof that shunning your family is ok, if it exist.
brief history .
-
-
rimfiredancing
Abusive, manipulative and toxic behaviour is not just the domain of JWs- it's in every aspect of society, it's just that as children we're trained to accept it for a wide variety of reasons. A nurturing, loving family is a wonderful gift in life (my partner and soon-to-be-husband is the most loving and awesome man I have ever known) and at the same time, blood is not thicker than water: if your family of origin is toxic or manipulative, there is no reason to tolerate this just because 'they're my parents'.
I have the healthiest and happiest relationship I have ever had in my life because I learned not to tolerate emotional or any other kind of abuse. There are many different possibilities for 'family', very few of which have anything to do with blood ties. We can choose what framework we live within- society itself is toxic and dysfunctional and I got a lot happier in my life when I realised that listening to anything it said was asking for the same miserable outcome it is heading towards. Now I decide for myself what is healthy and good for me and my kids, and things are turning out so much better than I had ever been able to imagine.
At what point forgiveness? When *REAL* remorse is shown, not just trumped up manipulation covered over with a slimy, insincere 'Oh, sorry'. In my reply regarding the letter I detail why the apology is nothing more than an effort to continue the manipulation- those who truly understand and grasp the scope of their previous behaviours *and who want something NOT toxic* take specific actions that have healing and true connection as their motivation. Most abusive/toxic people never get to that point though, because they have a rationalisation mechanism that puts them at the centre of the world and everyone else is unimportant; they truly are self absorbed, have an inability to see things from anyone else's point of view, consider themselves victims, misunderstood or hard done by the world and have justification for their rotten behaviour as a fixed way of being.
It takes a lot of self examination, honesty, humility and willingness to change that pattern. For me, if someone is striving to truly deal with their patterns, then I'll give them space in my life. Otherwise, why bother? I'm simply asking for pain and I got over THAT habit a long time ago. :) -
18
can any one help
by ladylove ini cant believe after 20 years of not being a jw that i found this site.. if anyone is willing to read this, and has any knowledge on the subject, i dont want to hate my father.
i am looking for biblical proof that shunning your family is ok, if it exist.
brief history .
-
-
rimfiredancing
Actually, I don't see remorse, I see emotional manipulation. I have spent a lot of years getting to the core of emotional and psychological abuse, primarily because I had to detox from first my mother's way of being and then the b0rg, so I have a very clear personal understanding of what is actually abusive and manipulative. Whilst not wishing in any way to seem detractive, I'd like to clarify my position and reasoning for my original reply. I believe it's *vitally* important for ex-cult members to be really clear when someone is sliding subtle emotional manipulation past them- that's how we ended up in the b0rg in the first place: if you had been in your right mind, would you have allowed the complete annhilation of your personality and ability to think critically? Neither would I.
the poster's original letter to her father raised some very specific issues and points, with some very clear questions that asked for answers. She mentions specific hypocrisies, particularly around her grandfather and uwed relatives and asks very specific questions as to the judgements that are being applied. This is very pertinent to the situation with her sister, as once again arbitrary decisions that have deep impact on the family and her ability to connect with her father are being made, as evidenced by her offer to be the one who is rejected 'because she is used to it'. She makes it clear that these are issues that are asking for answers.
In his reply, he does nothing but make empty apologies that offer no answers to the fundamental issues at all. He offers a weak 'I'm sorry I didn't protect you from grandpa' whilst totally failing to answer her original issue, which was about the continued contact *after* the molestation. There is no offer of explanation as to why this contact with a known molester was ok. In reality, this is continual abuse on the her part: not only did she have to live with what had happened to her, she also had to conform to her father's expectation that she continue to be around this abuser. This suggests that there was already a dynamic between father and son in which abuse was tolerated. Dad couldn't even step away from that pattern to uphold his daughter's integrity and dignity. Is this how we as parents choose to behave? Do we insist that our children are force fed some bizarre form of cultural 'understanding' in order to be emotionally violated again? As a child, we have no choice but to suppress our reactions to the people that originally hurt us, because the people that we thought would protect us are telling us by their actions and expectations that what happened to us wasn't really *that* bad and that there's something wrong with *us* for continuing to have a problem. 'Forgive and forget' is one of the most poisonous and powerful tools for manipulation that there is: the Native Americans are exhorted to 'forgive and forget', the descendants of slaves are exhorted to 'forgive and forget', the victims of rape, crime, abuse, violation and all number of things are exhorted to 'forgive and forget', whilst the studies indicate that the perpetrators think that there was never anything wrong with what they did in the first place.
This means that the philosophy is a perfect tool for abusers of any kind: if we fail to 'forgive and forget', the problem is with US and not the perpetrator. WE are supposed to show 'mercy' to those that, given the chance, show absolutely no mercy at all, and definately no remorse, although they're excellent at faking it. For me, this is an unacceptable equation and I no longer advocate any form of 'forgetting', whilst I advocate that primarily the forgiveness needs to be directed towards oneself.
The father brushes off the issue of hypocrisy by pointing out that there are *other* family members that aren't invited, and talks about 'closeness'. How does one become close to an emotionally abusive/manipulative person? By either not experiencing first hand their tactics, or by being damaged and accepting the continued abuse as normal. Either way, its toxic. The rest of the letter is meaningless blither designed to deflect the main issues raised by the writer, and then dismisses the entire issue by saying that 'Kate wouldn't come anyway and please let's not discuss this further': in other words, he's not interested in what is actually deeply bothering her, he just wants his own way and wants her to shut up, just like he did with grandpa.
So, where exactly is the remorse? Where is the sincere concern for her wellbeing, her emotional turmoil and pain, her issues with old, unresolved situations that are obviously deeply troubling, her raising of the situation that is endemic in the entire family. No, he's not interested in these things, he's interested in getting her to shut up and go along with things so that *he* can get what he wants, make things look good and pretend- just like with grandpa and the unwed relatives- that everything is actually ok and all swept under the rug.
Nope. Doesn't work for me. I endured the emotional manipulations of a *real* pro for 14 years, during which time she would collapse into apparent heartfelt remorse and self loathing after every bashing, telling me that she totally understood if I couldn't forgive her, indulging in a self hate session that generally ended with her screaming and wailing at 'god' for 'making her so flawed' or some such other self indulgent rubbish. It was precise and impressive manipulation, because what child *doesn't* want their parent to feel better, even at their own expense? And here is the equation again: he wants her to ignore her feelings, ignore his behaviour towards her siblings, stop even mentioning the hypocrisy and skeletons dangling in full view, shut up and just do what he wants so he can pretend the people he's invited are close to him.
Yuck. Blech. Blurk. This is not real, respectful, loving, genuine relationship- and why bother with anything less? I can fully empathise with your unresolved stuff with your parents: I did spend time with my mother before she died of cancer last year, but that was because I had gotten really, really clear on my ability to walk away if she tried any abusive stuff on me at all. She tried, saw the expression on my face and backed right off, because she knew she was dying and was afraid of what may come in her idea of the afterlife. I spent time with her in order to finish some of my own healing: had I not decided that it was the right thing for me to do, I would not have done it and would have been quite peaceful with her dying without any contact from me. Just because someone contributed genetic material to our physical body doesn't mean they're a great, good or even supportive person for us to be around. I personally deeply believe that its truly time for adults to stop making children take responsibility for the mess the adults are in and have made, emotionally or on any other level. This refusal to deeply embody this way of embracing adult personal responsibility is precisely why a million children a year, from the age of two to 12, are sold into prostitution. This will stop when we really get its not ok to ask our children to prostitute their essence, their true selves, their integrity and their emotional and physical wellbeing so that the adults around them can run their crap, on any level.
So no, I don't advocate 'forgive and forget' as a blanket philosophy. -
50
Why Religion?
by hillary_step ini have no issue with a person having a spiritual dimension, but i wonder why people have difficulty accepting that the religion that an individual makes up inside their head is no more or less worthy than the ones other people have made up in their heads.. why do people feel the need to have others tell them what to believe and how to think?
simplistic though this may sound, this is at the basis of all religion.
does religion scratch the itch of our insecurities?.
-
-
rimfiredancing
Burn the Ships- "elevate us beyond the beastly material, to the divine, our natural home"
Right there was the eventual crux for me: religion seeks to destroy everything natural about the world, belittling the non-human inhabitants and natural ecosystems whilst simultaneously and arrogantly raising 'humans' above everything else and bringing them to their knees. It is the foundation of racism, genocide (and no, genocide was NOT widespread practice amongst traditional communities, despite was civilisation likes to continuously bleat), Christianity as a doctrine never renounced slavery and was widely used to support and justify it (modern christians are still exhorted to be slaves for christ). Religion has nothing to do with spirituality and everything to do with control, hatred of life (including women and children as well as the natural world- and if anyone tries to tell me christianity *doesn't* hate women, have a look at a little book called Harlot on the Side of the Road), patriarchy, deliberate poverty and many other revolting things.
Someone mentioned a speech of Obama's and how that was a good explanation from a religious man. I saw a youtube video of one of his campaign promotions, with lots of snappy singing and a soul stirring speech about 'we can'; in it he referred to the founding of the country and the brave settlers 'pushing into the unforgiving wilderness'. Unforgiving for whom? No mention whatsoever of the more than thousand individual Native American nations who had quite happily and abundantly existed in this 'unforgiving wilderness', no remark whatsoever on the genocidal slaughter of these same nations by people fuelled by their absolute beliefs in white and social superiority, their absolute right to aquisition of anything they desired (a right given to them 'by god'), a belief that land 'untamed' was nothing more than 'resources unplundered and ripe for the picking'. Funnily enough, the same foundation of apparently christian beliefs (if polls are to be believed) are causing the US to lead the civilised world (also founded on christian beliefs of 'assimilate or die', which is basically the foundations of both JW teachings and those of the Borg) to destroy the natural world and the indigenous peoples who would stand in the way of their 'right' of aquisition. US companies sponsor the murder of indigenous protesters. US companies assume the right of aquisition of indigenous plants, claiming their ownership of all seeds through patenting and then refusing to supply such seeds, replacing them with GE seeds that are sterile. 25,000 Indian farmers have committed suicide in the last 10 years due to their despair over inability to provide for their families and service debt to US seed companies.
All done with religion's support and blessing because god- and the 'law'- is on *their* side.
There is no link between religion and spirituality: religion in effect becomes another tool for control, manipulation and subjugation. Look at the history of christianity in any part of the world. Religion continues to encourage the destruction of the planet, with variations on the 'beastly material' theme: for some fun and giggles, try looking at the history of slavery in the US and the descriptions of Indians and their ways of life. Even the WT has been associated with both praise for slavery and hatred of Jews.
I walked away from any idea of god when I walked away from the b0rg. There are much more beautiful, rich and amazing spiritual experiences out there than those spent in search for something that purports superiority because of its constant threat of destruction for unbelievers. I have no need of a god that demands its creations hate themselves, their phsyical state, the natural existence of the planet they are on and everything that these matrices create. I am watching with distant interest as the constructs and paper towers such self righteous and contemptuous thinking has created: soon, if people think the spiritual realm is their natural home, they're going to have an early opportunity to experience that because the eco-system, the economic system, the planet that they rely on for survival, are going to collapse under the weight of the ever increasing consumption, the poisons arrogantly spewed, the careless extinction of mass species, the unquestioned assumption, due to interesting interpretations of 'scripture', that some god 'gave' the planet to 'mankind' to 'fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection' everything on it. Interesting worldview that happens to currently be killing an entire planet. Hopefully, the remaining indigenous peoples will have learned the harsh lessons of the past and will this time simply vanish back into the wilderness and leave the invading interlopers to starve to death in the 'unforgiving wilderness'. I personally won't be helping the invaders to survive.