Posts by link

26

Watch Tower Finances

by link in

would anyone like to comment on the following observations?.

the very large majority of the jws that i come into contact with on a regular basis are not wealthy and many have very low incomes, yet they still make substantial contributions to the wbts every month.

because they are firmly lead to believe that it is an organisation that is struggling for its financial survival.. following a recent visit from the c.o.

link

Would anyone like to comment on the following observations?

The very large majority of the JWs that I come into contact with on a regular basis are not wealthy and many have very low incomes, yet they still make substantial contributions to the WBTS every month.

Why? Because they are firmly lead to believe that it is an organisation that is struggling for its financial survival.

Following a recent visit from the C.O. my wife returned from the meeting full of doom and gloom regarding the financial picture that the C.O. had painted of the Societies situation. He had told them that the Society was desperate for money to continue printing and distributing the magazines and to build Kingdom Halls and develop "the truth" in the very poorest third world countries. He asked that everyone make every effort to increase their contributions and ensure that everyone who received magazines was aware of the donation arrangement.

Consequently my wife is now almost begging for donations for them.

My questions are: has the C.O. painted an accurate picture of the financial circumstances of the Society and, would it be even possible to find out the combined income and expenditure of all the Companies in the Watchtower Group on a world wide basis? Perhaps not.

I do know that in the U.K. the Charity Commission make the detailed accounts of registered charities available to the public but charge a substantial amount for copies of them. I know that the Societys registered charity "WATCH TOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY OF BRITAIN" has an average income well in excess of 15 million pounds per annum and its second charity THE INTERNATIONAL BIBLE STUDENTS ASSOCIATION has an income which is quite similar.

I do not know how many other charities it operates in the U.K. from Ridgeway in London neither do I have any details of income and expenditure for the operation of its American Companies:

Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York Inc.
* Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania Inc.
* Watchtower Enterprises LLC.
* Watchtower Foundation Inc.
* Watchtower Associates LTD.
* Kingdom Support Services Inc.
* Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses.
* Religious Order of Jehovah's Witnesses.
* The Watchtower Group Inc.

Although I do know that the turnover in the U.S.A. is reputed to be in the order of one billion dollars.

Other countries must operate on similar incomes dependent on size of country.

What is the purpose of all this? What an I saying here?

A very large number of Witnesses on low incomes believe that their organisation is similarly hard pressed. They believe that the money they struggle to give to the Society is used to finance the building of structures like Kingdom Halls. They are not aware that the Society loans the money and it has to be repaid. They are not aware of the level of income of the Society has, either locally or world wide, nor the value of its property and investments.

If all this information could be gathered together and presented in a simple to understand format I believe that many Witnesses would walk away from it in disgust.

In my not insignificant experience, matters like failed prophecy and paedophiles are like water off a ducks back to them but new and accurate light on the financial structure of their organisation would have very real meaning to many of them who I know personally.

Any ideas or comments?

link

6

Types, Anti-types, 1st, 2nd, 3rd Fullfillments

by RubaDub in

is it just my distorted, critical reasoning and viewpoint on matters or has anyone here (i'm still new here) ever commented about why things appear so complex and complicated?

i mean is it possible that a lot of the things we read in the bible should be taken at face value?

of course there is a lot of symbolism in the bible.

link

Don't forget, these Types, Anti-types and Fullfillments can be Literal or Figurative.

The combination becomes mind boggling.

link

12

Paying for the Kingdom Hall

by JH in

jw
friends

in the late 80's, our hall was built and it cost about 150,000$ canadian.

every month, we had to give a certain amount to pay for the hall.

after 3 or 4 years, we still owed 135,000 for the hall.

link

I'm sorry people there is something that I just don't understand.

In response to my questions on this board I have been told by more than one poster that the Society makes donations for the building of Kingdom halls and Branch Offices. A donation is not a loan.

I understand from this thread that some are saying that the Society makes loans, not donations, that have to be paid back, with or without interest.

Also, as far as the U.K. is concerned, it has been said here on a number of occasions that the individual congregation owns the hall and it is one of their assets. Only in the case of the congregation disbanding does ownership revert to the Society.

Can anyone clarify?

link

10

Facts you were Not Told When Becoming a JW

by Gerard in

facts you you were not told when becoming a jw .

http://home.powertech.no/festus/awaken/a-007.shtml .

they believe & teach that all religions except theirs are of satan, and your pastor or priest is under the devil's control.

link

Gerard,

Type Beth Sarim into a search engine. Use the one on this site even.

regards

link

16

Why I'm Here...

by Sara Annie in

so many stories from so many people.

i've read with them all with interest and sympathy, and felt that if i am going to stick around and be a productive member, i should probably tell my own.

i know i am not the only non-jw on this site, and i wanted to offer the perspective of a 'never-was' as to why i am here and participating in the discussions.

link

A belated welcome to Sara Annie. That was an excellent and interesting post. I like your writing style, its professional (unlike my own).

This is a very good place to arm yourself with the true facts when you come up against those pushing the JW faith. Never be frightened of asking your questions here. There are quite a few here who will e-mail you copies of information if you need documentary evidence at any time.

Good luck

link

10

Facts you were Not Told When Becoming a JW

by Gerard in

facts you you were not told when becoming a jw .

http://home.powertech.no/festus/awaken/a-007.shtml .

they believe & teach that all religions except theirs are of satan, and your pastor or priest is under the devil's control.

link

Gerard,

That Fred Franz, who for many years headed the Society, perjured himself under oath in Scotland in a court trial, by saying he could read Hebrew, and then failing a simple Hebrew test.
I think that a little research will show that Fred Franz did not in fact take the test. It was assumed, probably correctly, that because he refused to take it he had no knowledge of the Hebrew language or at least his knowledge was very weak.

Just a point if we are talking TRUTH.

link

14

Is that a fact???

by link in

jw
friends

is it just me or does anyone else get really screwed up when they read something here on the board which they know is not factual and is utterly and completely wrong?

im not giving examples because youve all seen it.. what really gets to me is that when someone posts stuff that is completely factually inaccurate it makes all the posters here look like dummies.

i get to thinking about what all the jw lurkers must feel about "the stupid apostates" when they read some of this stuff.. i just wish that some people would do a bit of research before posting statements which they claim to be accurate.

link

Dear Mr gumpy (Im too lazy to correct my spelling mistakes), you make a good point about an hypothetical example so here goes:

Mr Poster makes the claim that Charles Taze Russell was a paedophile. How did he arrive at this conclusion? Just about everything that CTR ever did is documented somewhere, so there must be a record of his being charged and found guilty of child molesting. After all, the case of the miracle wheat is fully documented in contemporary records so why not something more serious?

How do we know that such a statement about the miracle wheat is true? How do we know that what we read is factual? Well it was written at the time and over a hundred years has passed for someone to challenge the information and no one has. It is documented in newspaper records of the day so we can safely assume that it has some credibility.

Lets look at where Mr Poster got his info. Guess what? It came from Mr David Ickes web site it therefore has to be the gospel truth and there is no need to check on his research because he is SOOO reliable.

OK. Now he has all the facts Mr Poster will approach the JWD board and post this accurate information and amaze everyone with his incredible level of accurate knowledge. However he omits to mention where he found his information which leads the gullable to believe and repeat it.

Along come Mr JW Lurker and what does he see? A load of rubbish on an "apostate" web site. Does Mr JWL see any of the really great, well researched and factually accurate posts put out by many contributors to the board? You can bet your life he doesnt, he wont look beyond the cr*p because that is all he is looking for to support his own beliefs.

This board is a wonderful place to post and discuss ideas and opinions on a whole range of topics but when claims of factual accuracy are involved it would be nice to see at least some sort of support for those claims.

This is just the way I see it! (opinion not fact).

link

edited to say: sorry prisca we were posting at the same time but I think that Ive covered your point by my example. Thanks

Edited by - link on 15 January 2003 6:7:48

14

Is that a fact???

by link in

jw
friends

is it just me or does anyone else get really screwed up when they read something here on the board which they know is not factual and is utterly and completely wrong?

im not giving examples because youve all seen it.. what really gets to me is that when someone posts stuff that is completely factually inaccurate it makes all the posters here look like dummies.

i get to thinking about what all the jw lurkers must feel about "the stupid apostates" when they read some of this stuff.. i just wish that some people would do a bit of research before posting statements which they claim to be accurate.

link

Is it just me or does anyone else get really screwed up when they read something here on the board which they know is not factual and is utterly and completely wrong? Im not giving examples because youve all seen it.

What really gets to me is that when someone posts stuff that is completely factually inaccurate it makes all the posters here look like dummies. I get to thinking about what all the JW lurkers must feel about "the stupid apostates" when they read some of this stuff.

I just wish that some people would do a bit of research before posting statements which they claim to be accurate.

O.K. O.K. tell me I can put them right if I feel that way but just remember that its not that simple. I would have to look up and present all the proper references when that is exactly what the original poster should have done.

Am I out of order in wishing that people would please be a bit more careful when making categorical statements of fact?

link

36

Question for SwordOfJah and other real JWs

by Realist in

jw
friends

i have a request.. could you perhaps state all the real facts that support the idea of the gb being inspired by god?.

i am not talking about feelings, faith etc.

but of real proveable fact...things that would be accepted in a court or that would survive scientific testing.

link

It seems that everyone here wants to discuss things such as the blood doctrine and the two witness rule without realising that these issues, and many like them, are symptoms of the faulty reasoning which SOJ is constantly displaying. We need to look at basic principles because it is these that are wrong and producing the problems that we see.

He says:

The two examples you use (blood transfussions & associating with disfellowshipped ones) are not suggestions made by the GB. Those doctrines are based on Bible scripture. Whether you accept those scriptures or not is up to you. In those two cases I am not following the GB, but Jehovah God who inspired his word.

And

Probably not, most in this forum are not satisfied, they criticize the two-witness rule that is scriptural. Well that's not a problem with the organization, that's a problem with Jehovah's law.

This is clearly and completely untrue. SOJ is not following the inspired word of God as he claims, he is following the Societies interpretation of the inspired word of God, which is something entirely different.

He himself states originally that the organisation does not receive Divine Guidance but:

Spirit guided would be that Jehovah uses his spirit as a guide but is not telling the person what to write or speak word for word. The person might also ignore that guidance if he is does not have proper motivation or a pure heart. For example, the spirit could guide me to a specific door while I'm in the preaching work, but I could ignore it if I'm tired and just go home.

In other words it is falliable. (see also)

You have incorrectly assumed that as JWs, we are not guided by Jehovah. I did not say that, I said that the GB is not inspired to write as the Bible writers were.

With regard to the following:

As regard to the visual proof that you ask for, I think you would have to clarify further was you expect Jehovah to show you as proof. Is faith in his inspired word not enough?

It must be clear to every thinking person, including SOJ, that, as I have pointed out, he is not putting his "faith in His inspired word" but in the word of an organisation that that claims, without any proper or reliable evidence, to be His "sole channel of communication".

We rely on faith when we believe that the Bible is the Inspired Word of God. We rely totally on the suspension of disbelief when we are asked to put our belief a group of persons who claim to speak on Gods behalf. We have in fact discarded faith at the point where we begin to believe in these man made tales.We are then not using faith at all but are thinking with our disbelief suspended in a major way. Perhaps we could at this point ask a Watchtower type question: Would this be pleasing to God? Please think about this.

link

36

Question for SwordOfJah and other real JWs

by Realist in

jw
friends

i have a request.. could you perhaps state all the real facts that support the idea of the gb being inspired by god?.

i am not talking about feelings, faith etc.

but of real proveable fact...things that would be accepted in a court or that would survive scientific testing.

link

SOJ is clearly identifying the problems that I and many others have with the "truth"

How on earth can this statement:

No, I allow Jehovah God to guide them and eventually things get turned around for the good. And even if some things are not clearly understood at the present time, I do have hope of perfection in the new system of things.

Possibly be reconciled with this:

It might not be a miracle, but it's accurate knowledge as described in Proverbs 2.

How can accurate knowledge be "not clearly understood"? If it is "not clearly understood" how can it be taught as "truth"? How can a religious organisation insist that salvation must be earned by compelling others to accept, as binding upon them, information that is "not clearly understood"?

There are just far too many holes in what SOJ says for it to make any sense to a thinking person.

This is not a personal attack on SOJ, just a big question mark against his thinking.

link