i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.
17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.
"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?
hi myelaine/michelle
Your points and scriptures are good ones and again refering to jesus and God as same nature (this is stuff for a more trinitarian discussion) but its not on what I was trying to say with regards to jesus himself!
That Jesus himself didn't want to be seen as God and certainly never as equal to God, it is something people have hung on him against his wishes.
reniaa
Hi leolaia
Indeed jude does refer to enoch but enoch is not inspired of God it has something like 100 chapters is a known book of its day. Its seen as book that lacks the accuracy that comes from being inspired of God but as with most books written by men on history it may have some things that hit the right note and jude picks up on just one of them, talking about archangel michael but that doesn't mean what else enoch says is right or even accurate, enoch isn't the only book refered to by NT authors for clarification here I have to quote from outside source
Other New Testament quotations from, or allusions to, non-Biblical works include Paul's quotations of Aratus (Acts 17:28), Menander (1 Corinthians 15:33) and Epimenides (Titus 1:12). Such usage in no way suggest that the quotations, or the books from which they were taken, are divinely inspired. It only means that the Biblical author found the quotations to be helpful confirmation, clarification, or illustration
As a side point there is a reason catholics don't jump all over enoch as a book for extra clarification lol i'm not sure were but it talks of jesus/son of man being a separate being from God quite literally in the JW sense, So it's a book niether JWs want because it talks of loads of archangels thus not backing the claim of Jesus being michael and a pain for catholics in not backing the trinity. also there is the slight problem of 350 feet high giants ^^
So in conclusion I cannot see how we can reasonably goto Enoch for extra information if jude only allows for that one bit however men liked it at the time, it could be a complete work of mens fiction with only a few titbits of truth in it. There no way to know and all we do know is that there is no argument that it was in anyway inspired and never consider anything but as apocrypha :)
jesus is not an angel!.
the bible says that none of the angels is anything like jehovah (yahweh).
(see psalm 89:6) it also teaches that angels are merely servants sent forth to serve god and help god's people.. but, the bible teaches that jesus christ is exactly like jehovah, shares his nature, and that jesus is far above all angels, and that jesus is the one who created all angels for his own glory, and god commands all of the angels to worship jesus!.
The Question here is are we talking substance or in mind?
when we say 'A son is the image of his father' we mean he is just like him but not that he is made of the same stuff.
An Angel is a spirit creature and lives in the spiritual realm we do not know how this works but we do know that jesus active in this realm too and is among them
The Rider on the White Horse
11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." [a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great."
19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.
So here is jesus riding with his angels.
but as for jesus being an angel well this is were it gets interesting....
exodus 14: 19-20
19 Then the angel of God, who had been traveling in front of Israel's army, withdrew and went behind them. The pillar of cloud also moved from in front and stood behind them, 20 coming between the armies of Egypt and Israel. Throughout the night the cloud brought darkness to the one side and light to the other side; so neither went near the other all night long.
note here is an angel that helps and accompanies moses and the israelites at the red sea.
now note these words in 1 Cor 10: 1-4
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
here Jesus is identified as the one accompanying moses and the israelites but how could he unless the angel of god and jesus are one and the same.
Now lets look at gal 4 : 14
12 I plead with you, brothers, become like me, for I became like you. You have done me no wrong. 13 As you know, it was because of an illness that I first preached the gospel to you. 14 Even though my illness was a trial to you, you did not treat me with contempt or scorn. Instead, you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself.
here is not the link made between jesus and being an angel?
and finally lets goto revelation 9:11
11 They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek, Apollyon. [a]
here we have a king angel with power that controls others who is he?
Reniaa
i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.
17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.
"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?
hi satanas if you look at one of the scriptures I quoted it Jesus himself speaks of things called 'Gods'
34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods' [e] ? 35 If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37 Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does.
hi brother Apostate
Thank you for your well thought out reply but this is not a scriptural discussion on trinity like your link says 'It's a mystery' even to those that follow it but that I think using the scriptures we can see jesus actively stopped people viewing him as God and only allowed himself to be Gods son and not a play on words to mean 'Son the god' another expression that is none biblical see the first scripture I used.....
18 A ruler questioned Him, saying, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone
Aren't we basically deciding what we ourselves think jesus is! when jesus himself did not seek to be God and as he did in this scripture pointed it out to others?
i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.
17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.
"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?
So?
S
If it can be rendered so as to show the Word is not actually God then it really isn't a Good scripture to make a doctrine by and as I said above this is john speaking on jesus but when Jesus had opportunity and chance he refused to be acknowledged as God and always stressed God was greater than he himself.
i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.
17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.
"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?
hi satanas
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. NIV
John 1:1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.NWT
This rendering is preferred among popular English translations today. However, this is not universal in usage among scholarly translations. Translations by James Moffatt, Hugh J. Schonfield and Edgar Goodspeed render it:
"...and the Word was divine."
Other variations also exist:
- The Good News Bible reads: "...and he was the same as God."
- The Revised English Bible reads: "...and what God was, the Word was."
- Wycliffe's Bible reads: "In the beginning was the word, and the word was at God, and God was the word.
There are additional translations that render John 1:1c in a similar manner. An example of such translations includes The New World Translation published by Jehovah's Witnesses which renders part of John 1:1 as "...and the word was a god" [3] [4]
Two issues need to be remembered as regards the original text. First, old Greek manuscripts of the Bible are in capital letters only. Second, the word theos in the original text cannot grammatically have the definite article. [5] John 10:35 has similar usage of Greek word theos (god), with and without ho (the) when describing human rulers as "gods".
[edit] Difficulties
There are two issues affecting the translating of the verse, theology and proper application of grammatical rules. The commonly held theology that Jesus is God naturally leads one to believe that the proper way to render the verse is the one which is most popular. [6] The opposing theology that Jesus is subordinate to God as his Chief agent leads to the conclusion that "...a god" is the proper rendering. [7] Some scholars staunchly oppose the translation ...a god, [8] [9] [10] while other scholars believe it is possible or even preferable. [11] [12] [13]
this is a contraversial scripture that can be rendered 2 ways possibly 3 depending on your viewpoint and inclination, it is by no means cut and dried as would first appear.
Also this is john speaking on jesus, in my choice of scripture I was trying to show jesus had ample opportunity to say he was God or agree and never did, in fact kept correcting others when such occasions occurred.
jesus is not an angel!.
the bible says that none of the angels is anything like jehovah (yahweh).
(see psalm 89:6) it also teaches that angels are merely servants sent forth to serve god and help god's people.. but, the bible teaches that jesus christ is exactly like jehovah, shares his nature, and that jesus is far above all angels, and that jesus is the one who created all angels for his own glory, and god commands all of the angels to worship jesus!.
hi undisfellowshipped
intersting discussion you argument for not believing jesus is God is the scripture
Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world . He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature , and he upholds the universe by the word of his power . After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs .
I won't argue that jesus is superior to the angels but does that mean not an angel or at least not made of the ehh same stuff, you say the exact imprint of his nature as a reason to separate jesus and God from the angels but isn't somethng similar said of humans?
Then God said, "Let us make man in ourimage, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
does that mean we are made of same stuff as God because we are his image?
i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.
17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.
"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?
hi st Ann
lol I spend about an hour pouring over the bible to find scriptures personal to my own reasons for not believing jesus is god and you just, cut and paste the catholic catachism at me basically wt for catholics without addressing any of my scriptures well fair enough, but I do thankyou for posting I was beginning to think my thread would just disappear certainly doctrinal discussions are no longer what this forum seems to be about anymore.
By the way I do know what modalism is - is the nontrinitarian belief that the Heavenly Father, Resurrected Son and Holy Spirit are different modes or aspects of one God, as perceived by the believer, rather than three distinct persons in God Himself. but my scriptures allow for trinity as well as modalism to be questioned unless your saying that as Son the God part of the Godhead jesus didn't know he was God?
reniaa
i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.
17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.
"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?
I thought after recently reading the bible I would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as God and anyone listening would also see it this way too.
first mark 10 :17-20
17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"18 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. 19 You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.' [d] "
20 "Teacher," he declared, "all these I have kept since I was a boy."
why would jesus pick up the mans words if he actually was God?
next math 4 :8-10
8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me."10 Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' [d] "
firstly why would satan offer Jesus kingdoms and splender if he thought jesus was god indeed why would he consider such stuff would tempt god enough to worship him? and why would jesus reply that way if he was God surely he would say worship only me or something to that effect?
john 14 28:30
28 "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29 I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30 I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me, 31 but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me. "Come now; let us leave.
here jesus shows us that he never considers himself equal to god and obeys him.
john 8:14-18
14 Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. 15 You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. 16 But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. 17 In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. 18 I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me."
here jesus s showing he fulfills the testimony law on two witnesses but which two? himself and his father...2 separate people testifying (not 3 in1) how could jesus say this if he was saying he was God? and in fact wouldn't jesus be giving false testimony here if he was in fact god?
John 10: 31-37
31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods' [e] ? 35 If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37 Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does.
here jesus is accused of being God but he corrects them showing you can call many things God and then correctly identifying himself as God's son only. definitely a wasted opportunity for jesus to confirm all that trinititarians believe.
These are just a sample of scriptures I find that really show that jesus is very separate from his father and even takes every opportunity not to be seen in anyway as equal to his father but here they are up for discussion to any who disagree.
according to the table in the back of the nwt, genesis and exodus were composed around 1300 bce, by moses (who also wrote in exodus about his own death, nice feat).
however, the oldest existing copies or fragments of genesis are only from around 200 bce.. .
additionally, comparison of genesis with sumerian and babylonian creation accounts reveal many, many similarities, and the sumerians and babylonians had there stories long before 1300 bce...so it appears that someone copied someone else merely changing a few names to suit a different audience.
hi leolaia you say moses writing pentateuch was a jewish tradition that moses wrote it but jesus comfirms this biblically...
John 5:45-47 NIV
45 "But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?"
and certainly there are references to moses writing down the commandments and suchlike too? he could have got scribes to write for him or maybe some priest filled in the details at the end hmmmm.
