Posts by reniaa

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

reniaa

LOL well definately had my thread railroaded onto other subjects, And yet I still think My original points stands Jesus himself never wanted what you all put on him, He always put himself in subjection to his father. He never sort to be called God only God's son, I think only isaacaustin and a couple of others addressed my post from jesus's standpoint before going on to quote the usual verses on why they think jesus is God which are nothing to do with what jesus ever wanted or said!

Matthew 20:23
Jesus said to them, "You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father."

Matthew 26:29
I tell you, I willnot drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom.

Mark 14:35-37

35 Going a little farther, he fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him. 36 "Abba, [a] Father," he said, "everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will."

Just recently in listening to the way people talk on jesus and how they venerate him on here, I'm beginning to wonder if trinity is the right word? IT seems you people who believe Jesus is God have a strange monotheism based on Jesus with a reluntant tagging on of Father and holy spirit who are like embarassing guests at a wedding to be tolerated but overlooked if possible when gasing at the Main attraction.

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

reniaa

you are missing the main points that everyone is making and are misinterpreting the scriptures because you do not read them in their entirety, but rather pull out only one verse.
Jesus gave up his divinity, came to earth in the flesh and thus was in lower position to the father. That is why he could say "the father is greater than I". Remember he was on earth then in human form. This is something Jesus willingly did, gave up the glory (which means divinity if you research this word), that he had from the beginning of time with the father and came to earth in a slave's form, made a little lower than the angels. Upon his ascension he took back his glory, i.e. divinity that he had prior to coming to earth.

hi lilylil

Actually I put as quite a few scriptures in my points I even in one of my posts recommended people to read theg whole prayer of jesus a lot of the time the issue is over one word in the scripture as in jesus saying 'the father is greater than I' and your point is basically while jesus was on earth he wasn't God? in your words gave up his divinity. but he then in your words "Upon his ascension he took back his glory, i.e. divinity that he had prior to coming to earth. " so then was equal to God again but then how come scriptures written on him after this still put him in subjection to God? (note i'm using large portions of scriptures not just a few words)

1 cor 11: 3-5

3 Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. 5 And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is just as though her head were shaved.

revelation 3: 7-13

7 "To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:
These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 8 I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9 I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. 10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. 11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12 Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name. 13 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

reniaa

hi stAnn for you to view

In case anyone is wondering about our registration policy:
I don't intend to turn people away who want to register and post or make ultra-strict registration procedures because I honestly don't think that they work. If I were to ask for names of congregations or presiding overseers then I have no real way of checking if they are correct. Asking for words out of current literature (such as KMs) won't work either because people can get hold of this quite easily and would be a bit of a pain to administer. I think it also gives a bad witness in that it makes us look like we're a "paranoid cult who see enemies at every turn".
This doesn't mean of course that I will allow posts of an obvious apostate nature or those that are abusive. The forum software is not completely finished yet but I am putting in place features for monitoring individuals posts if they are suspected of trying to cause trouble and warning or barring them if neccessary (although given the ease of getting a new identity on the Internet this is really a last resort).
I hope the board gets busy enough so that I need some help moderating it but again, there is no way for me to confirm anyone's good standing or not unless I know them personally. I will just have to see who makes regular and reasonable contributions to decide who would be most suitable (and I don't want it to end up where the moderators have to be moderated).
There are subjects that I believe should and need to be discussed which some would call controversial. I don't intend to prevent these as long as the discussions are constructive. Please be patient with those you don't agree with and don't be too quick to judge or to take offence.
If anyone has any comments or concerns, please let me know. Your input will help to turn this forum into the one you want it to be.
- Simon
Edited by - Simon on 25 March 2000 20:19:29

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/56/1.ashx

Originally this was a JW discussion group although things changed fairly fast but it still from what people have told had people from both camps both JW's and EX-Jws fiercely debating topics from one end of the known universe to another, anyone remember thirdwitness?

Now StAnn you would have me kicked out for being pro-JW so wanting to make this forum come full-circle to become what it once said it never would be?

Well you have a right to your opinion and so do I, but here lets do what mrsjones recommends and ignore each other!

you don't need to write on any discussion threads if you don't like the topic.

Reniaa

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

reniaa

Reniaa, I beseech you to look further into the designation "Ancient of Days."
Did you know that some Bible scholars teach this was the Son, and link Daniel 7 with Matthew 25 and Revelation 1 and 13?
I didn't either - until I took off the WT glasses and searched for myself.
There is so much in the Bible that pokes holes in WT doctrine.
Sylvia

hi silvia

I did and if you mean me to start thinking in daniel that the whole vision is Jesus approaching jesus the mind boggles, I mean I knew the Catholics twist some things to help their trinity cause but to do it with this scripture is so out there that even I can't believe it, I'm sorry but using a similarity of white hair in two scriptures as justification in changing the whole idea of the first scripture and it's participants is nuts.

Daniel 7:13
"In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.

the easiest and totally logical explanation of this verse is Jesus approaching God jehovah, but when did easy or logical apply to people wanting to believe jesus is God because easy is when jesus says he is the 'Son of God' that is exactly what he is! the son and not God

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

reniaa

you then use hebrews scripture
Hbr 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they
you are making a point between better and greater but you miss that the scripture talks on jesus being 'MADE' if he is of equal Godhead he was never made.
Just noticed what you said here.
First off, I suggest you look to the original language and determine what is really meant by the term that has been translated as 'made'.
Secondly, Jesus claims to be the Son of God. Can you deny that your parents 'made' you? However, as a child of theirs, they also 'begot' you. This, I think, is the sense of the english word 'made' as it is used in this instance. Get a concordance and determine for youself.
Thirdly, further on in that same portion, the author uses the word 'inheritance'. The angles don't inherit anything; they are only creations and can become nothing more. Christ was begotten (John 3:16) of God, and as such is THE SON OF GOD. Therefore, He has INHERITED a more excellent name. We can also inherit from God even though we are only creations. However, unlike the angels, we have the possiblity of believing in Christ and become like Him. For when we believe on Him, we are adopted into the FAMILY OF GOD. This would NOT be possible if Christ was not God. For why would belief on Christ enable the Spirit of God to dwell within in each believer? Belief in God allows Him to dwell within each of His children. However, we are told to believe on Christ since He is the physical representation of God Himself, and is the proof given to us of God's existence and great love toward us.
slappy

hi slappy it'doesn't matter if the word is MADE, BEGOTTEN, CREATED it still puts God in the driving seat and First and jesus second after God and so not equal to God and therefore not God. (note there is no mention of holy spirit here)

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

reniaa

hi lovelylil,

its half term here so not much time outside of being mumified lol to answer points but i will address yours

You jesus clarified the point by saying 'I and the father are one' thus solidifying their equality but in other scriptures jesus says 'The father is greater than I' this is a contradiction and even if you say greater is only a position, but also look at this scripture john 17:11

11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one.

if jesus saying he is one with god is some sort of reference to him being God then this scripture means we are all God because he is asking God for those that follow him to be one with God too! but if we take we are one to mean 'one' in purpose and agreement then this scripture makes sense.

I recommend all to read the whole of jesus's prayer to God here it is not the prayer between equals but of a humble loving son to his father who also loves us so much he'll give his life for us.

Never does jesus consider himself equal to God and here is a favourite Jw scripture which is still valid because it emphasises that jesus can't be god because he does not have the knowledge that god has.

36 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, [f] but only the Father.

The humbleness of jesus is another reason I reject him trying to point out to the rich man he is God that is not a humble man speaking, it just doesn't sit well with who I know jesus to be...in fact for jesus to be all those would have him be on here for the scriptures to fit, he'd have to be playing a misleading lying game, gets irritated a lot, not particularily humble and making sure everyone knows he considers himself equal to God. Now if you applied that personality to Satan I'd agree but never to jesus

You talk of jesus asking god to Glorify him but why would he need that if he is equal to God? only if God is greater can he give Glory to jesus, again this emphasises that jesus has all he has because it is given by God, he is also the firstborn so he will have come before all things just not before god himself.

YO]ou also say the scriptures give a triune feel! No they do not! a few scriptures are manipulated to suggest jesus is God but the holy spirit never comes into them, the favourite of Godhead scriptures to be used 'The father and I are one' doesn't mention the holy spirit at all, So in fact any triun-ness to the bible is post-bible placed there by people telling you it should be there but in fact if we look at the bible with no preconceptions the trinity doesn't get a look in.

Unless you add the fake scripture at 1 John 5:7 which for me really is the Death-blow for believing Jesus is God because why would men put it in? and more importanatly why didn't God put it in.

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

reniaa

hi isaac austin

I was just reviewing your rebuttal of my scriptures, btw thankyou for your well thought out replies.

17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
18 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. 19 You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.' [ d ] "
20 "Teacher," he declared, "all these I have kept since I was a boy."
why would jesus pick up the mans words if he actually was God?
Jesus did NOT say he was not good. He simply asked a question...putting this man in a position of recognizing he was God.

The man coming to jesus is just a rich man who comes along not an appostle and jesus rebukes him for calling him Good, then saying no one is Good except God ALONE emphasies on the alone singular, while your interpretaion has merit, given the setting that he is talking to a random jew on a different subject this was just a pick up rebuke at the start, and then the alone on God I would be dubious of how you interpretate it to mean, the situation is such that the man will have the obvious meaning which is jesus emphasising only God is Good not jesus.

you then use hebrews scripture

Hbr 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they

you are making a point between better and greater but you miss that the scripture talks on jesus being 'MADE' if he is of equal Godhead he was never made.

you talk on my two witness text saying they are equal but isn't that contradictory after just looking at a scripture were jesus says "the father is greater than I"

The point in the scripture john 10: 31-37 is jesus emphasised he was God's son not letting them calling him God stand unchallenged.

but you added some intersting ideas heres another scripture for thought on Jesus or 'son of man'

Do we accept jesus is the 'son of man'?

Matthew 12:32
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. (jesus and spirit are equal why can we be forgiven sinning against jesus but not the spirit?)

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth
Matthew 13:41
The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.
Matthew 13:40-42 (in Context) Matthew 13 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 16:13
[ Peter's Confession of Christ ] When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
Matthew 16:12-14 (in Context) Matthew 16 (Whole Chapter)

in view of these what do you think regarding the next scripture.....daniel 7: 13-14

13 "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

This is talking of the son of man being led into the presence of the ancient of days, So here is jesus going to meet God and God gives him authority, this brings up many points firstly jesus is seen as a fully separate entity and in subjection to god as well as God being the one to give him power and glory etc

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

reniaa

hi cjones I appreciate your comment but I accept only authentic scriptures from the bible as argument for discussion!

Reniaa, The bible teaches that the Father is God, that Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God and that there is only one God. I have not read all of the responses, just a couple of them, however I wanted to share this verse with you.
1 John 5:7 (KJV) For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
God bless,
cjones

but here's a scholar on the verse you mention.

The only verses in the whole Bible that explicitly ties God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit in one "Triune" being is the verse of 1 John 5:7
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
This is the type of clear, decisive, and to-the-point verse I have been asking for. However, as I would later find out, this verse is now universally recognized as being a later "insertion" of the Church and all recent versions of the Bible, such as the Revised Standard Version the New Revised Standard Version, the New American Standard Bible, the New English Bible, the Phillips Modern English Bible ...etc. have all unceremoniously expunged this verse from their pages. Why is this? The scripture translator Benjamin Wilson gives the following explanation for this action in his "Emphatic Diaglott." Mr. Wilson says:
"This text concerning the heavenly witness is not contained in any Greek manuscript which was written earlier than the fifteenth century. It is not cited by any of the ecclesiastical writers; not by any of early Latin fathers even when the subjects upon which they treated would naturally have lead them to appeal to it's authority. It is therefore evidently spurious."
Others, such as the late Dr. Herbert W. Armstrong argued that this verse was added to the Latin Vulgate edition of the Bible during the heat of the controversy between Rome, Arius, and God's people. Whatever the reason, this verse is now universally recognized as an insertion and discarded. Since the Bible contains no verses validating a "Trinity"

reniaa

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

reniaa

Seriously satanas and snowbird you are not making the argument that jesus misled/lied deliberately because he was angry and upset at people?

And this is a supporting argument you are putting on the table to prove that he is god?

if alternatively you were trying to prove he was satan 'the father of the lie' then......

18

Jesus is NOT an angel

by UnDisfellowshipped in

jesus is not an angel!.

the bible says that none of the angels is anything like jehovah (yahweh).

(see psalm 89:6) it also teaches that angels are merely servants sent forth to serve god and help god's people.. but, the bible teaches that jesus christ is exactly like jehovah, shares his nature, and that jesus is far above all angels, and that jesus is the one who created all angels for his own glory, and god commands all of the angels to worship jesus!.

reniaa

but then jehovah and jesus are not water either!

I use scripture its easier than my words heres another scripture on angels who does it remind you of?

revelation 10: 1-4

1 Then I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven. He was robed in a cloud, with a rainbow above his head; his face was like the sun, and his legs were like fiery pillars. 2 He was holding a little scroll, which lay open in his hand. He planted his right foot on the sea and his left foot on the land, 3 and he gave a loud shout like the roar of a lion. When he shouted, the voices of the seven thunders spoke. 4 And when the seven thunders spoke, I was about to write; but I heard a voice from heaven say, "Seal up what the seven thunders have said and do not write it down."

Matthew 26:64
"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
Matthew 26:63-65 (in Context) Matthew 26 (Whole Chapter)
Mark 14:62
"I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven