Posts by Morgana

20

Do you intend to die?

by new hope and happiness in

as far as i know, all of us are going to die.

our hope, our stories, and the fantazy of " good people" telling tales of heaven, or a new system, or future reassembling of our consciousness is not likely?

do you still cling to it?.

There is a lecture series from Yale University held by Prof. Shelly Kagan on "Death" (26 lectures; it's freely available on YouTube, just search for "Shelly Kagan Death" or go to the Open Yale channel at http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEA18FAF1AD9047B0&feature=plcp).

In these lectures, Prof. Kagan extensively and in a very lively way treats the the questions of death, soul (arguments for and against), personal identity, dying, and our human attitudes and reactions to them. He considers his subject from virtually any conceivable perspective.

I highly recommend watching or listening to this course.

23

New DVD - Has anyone ripped a leaked copy yet?

by outinthemeadows in

i was going to say "i could do with a leak" but that would sound wrong.

so i'll rephrase, has anyone got a leaked copy of the new dvd released at the district sorry regional convention this year?.

Morgana

Thanks for the Magnet, working fine.

24

What prophecys made you belive the Bible?

by venting in

jw
friends

i now believe the bible is a book of history and myths.

the org and others still point to certain prophecys that lead them to believe, that god must have been involved.

how can we explain some of these?

Morgana

Even though I agree that the bible is largely a book of history and myths, living in Israel, it was the experience of the fulfillment of prophecies regarding Jews and their country that really impressed me.

After all and contrary to JWs, Jews can point out quite a lot of biblical prophecies that have been fulfilled clearly and visibly in ours days, and this fulfillment has become living reality in a modern, very vital country; just to mention a few that come into my mind:

— (history since 70) Scattering and pursuit of the people of Israel over the whole earth. Deut 28:64-66

— Retaining the unity of Israel even in the Diaspora and through all tribulation; ‘tradition’. Isa 49:14ff; Jer 31:35ff

— Regathering of the people back into their country which will assume the name ‘Israel’ (e.g. Theodor Herzl 1860-1904; Zionist movement). Ezek 37:11-14

— Revival and renewal of the language that had been a ‘dead’ language only used in the Synagogue at least since the days of the Persians and that is now a living language in daily life as well as economy, science and all other fields of a modern society (revived by Eliezer Ben Yehuda 1858-1922). Jer 31:23; Zeph 3:9

— Repossession and cultivation of the completely devastated country (e.g. Kibbutz movement since 1909). Deut 29:23ff => Ezek 36:33-36; Jes 35:6; Ezek 28:25,26; Amos 9:13-15

— ‘Root of Jesse’ as banner of the people of Israel (‘Magen David’ as flag of Israel). Jes 11:10-12

— Reestablishment of the political state (May 14, 1948: David Ben Gurion). Jer 16:14,15

— Resurgence of Israeli military (4th most powerful conv. and nuclear armed force of the world!). 2Sam 7:9-11; Zech 12:5-9; cf. Ps 110:2,3

— Focusing of the political interest of the world on Israel and Jerusalem; concentration of conflicts in this region (see daily news). Zech 12:2,3; Ezek 5:5

— Reoccupation of Jerusalem by the Jewish people, Jerusalem is capital of Israel — End of the ‘times of the Gentiles’ (formally announced by the Chief Rabbi on June 7, 1967 during the conquest of the Western Wall). Zech 12:6; Luk 21:24

Understandably, these things are usually not mentioned by JWs or in their literature.

22

What has the WTS EVER "predicted" that has actually come true?

by integ in

you'd think they could point to something right?

obviously we're the one true religion".. i can't fathom how anyone of any intelligence would be willing to join up with this org after doing even rudimentary research.. for years they have taught that it's wrong to seek advanced education or to plan for a "worldly" future by trusting in this system of things and then this past sunday the watchtower article rips on people for not planning for the future in regard to their elderly relatives.

maybe if they hadn't been teaching for 100 yr's that the end was "just around the corner" and telling us we'd better believe that fact...or else, we would have planned better for a future that you said without reservation would not even occur.. what mind blowing prediction can they point to that would convince someone "oh yeah..these guys have it right"...?.

Morgana

End of the gentile times

Actually, no.
(cf. Zech 12:6; Luke 21:24)

That is one of the few precise prophecies that has been fulfilled historically and visibly -- with the reoccupation of Jerusalem by the Jewish people.

The ‘End of the Gentile Times’ was formally announced on June 7, 1967 after the 6-Days-War when Israeli troups reached the Western Wall.

56

So...Assuming God exists, if he were on trial and you were the prosecutor, how would you present your case?

by androb31 in

feel free to skip the intro down to the actual purpose of the thread lol!!.

i'm a born in, 32 years in and almost 6 out.

i've been out of the jw's since october of 2008. i came out due to a variety of factors, blood, historical roots, false teachings etc... my older sister helped me out back in 2008 and i subsequently helped my brother exit and the 3 of us became "born again" christians.. i've been mostly lurking but occasionally posting on jwn for around 5 years.

Morgana

There have been several treatments of this question in literature and film that may be worth reading or watching.

E.g. there is Elie Wiesel's play "The Trial of God"(ISBN 978-0805210538):

The Trial of God (as it was held on February 25, 1649, in Shamgorod)
A Play by Elie Wiesel
Translated by Marion Wiesel
Introduction by Robert McAfee Brown
Afterword by Matthew Fox

Where is God when innocent human beings suffer? This drama lays bare the most vexing questions confronting the moral imagination.

Set in a Ukranian village in the year 1649, this haunting play takes place in the aftermath of a pogrom. Only two Jews, Berish the innkeeper and his daughter Hannah, have survived the brutal Cossack raids. When three itinerant actors arrive in town to perform a Purim play, Berish demands that they stage a mock trial of God instead, indicting Him for His silence in the face of evil. Berish, a latter-day Job, is ready to take on the role of prosecutor. But who will defend God? A mysterious stranger named Sam, who seems oddly familiar to everyone present, shows up just in time to volunteer.

The idea for this play came from an event that Elie Wiesel witnessed as a boy in Auschwitz: “Three rabbis—all erudite and pious men—decided one evening to indict God for allowing His children to be massacred. I remember: I was there, and I felt like crying. But there nobody cried.”

Inspired and challenged by this play, Christian theologians Robert McAfee Brown and Matthew Fox, in a new Introduction and Afterword, join Elie Wiesel in the search for faith in a world where God is silent.

And there is, of course, that great movie (television play) based on Wiesel's play, "God on Trial" from 2008:

Who is to blame for the greatest of all crimes? Facing extermination at Auschwitz, a group of prisoners solemnly weighs the case against God.

Following the harrowing ritual of selection for death or hard labor, a group of new inmates unsure of their appointed fates begins asking how God could allow for so much suffering. Impulsively, the men decide to put God on trial for abandoning His chosen people. Amid the sound of prisoners outside being marched to the gas chamber, the trial unfolds, addressing the age-old question: How can there be evil in a universe ruled by an all-powerful, benevolent God?

Some of the prisoners are passionate defenders of their faith, but as the hour approaches when many of them will be chosen to die, they reach a verdict. It is a surprising conclusion to this challenging and respectful proceeding.

40

The Watchtower September 15, 2009 (PDF)

by possible-san in

now, in my japanese forum, the watchtower september 15, 2009 (pdf, 33.8mb) is downloadable.. but only a registrant can access.. http://bb2.atbb.jp/strongwings/viewtopic.php?t=471.

if you are interested in that pdf file, i will upload it only for one week.. .

possible.

Morgana

Thanks for your offer.

However, since I am not able to register at the Japanese board, I would be grateful for another way to download it.

21

PDF, the Watchtower August 15, 2009

by possible-san in

now, in my japanese forum, the watchtower august 15, 2009 (pdf, 32mb) is downloadable.. but only a registrant can access.. http://bb2.atbb.jp/strongwings/viewtopic.php?p=1598#1598.

it is deleted within about one week.. .

http://godpresencewithin.web.fc2.com/.

Morgana

Thanks to all those who put their efforts into sharing this material with us, and particularly to Atlantis and fokyc who generously have made it available to all of us ever and again without asking for any reward.

BTW, page 26 is missing from this scan.

37

The New World Translation Dirty Dozen...lurkers will love it!........

by oompa in

ok...now this is the last part of appendix 1d in the reference bible...so if you want to check out rev.

22: 18,19 it says we can not change a single thing...not a word about this scroll...and moses was told the same thing about the law if you check the cross reference...so why is it they change ky (not the lube...plus astroglide is way better) ky rios, which is lord....to yhwh!....jehovah!!

!....so if you see the j thingys and numbers....that is all the crappy dark ages bibles that also changed the bible to suit them.....so since they changed the bible...it makes us legit to do it too?!?!?

Morgana

Modern Hebrew Bibles as printed today in Israel - and in this case, I'm talking about Bibles comprising both the OT in the accepted Masoretic Biblical Hebrew (BH) text as well as the NT in (moderately modern) Hebrew - and their liberal readers (orthodox Jews would of course not use such a 'combined' Bible) have no problem with the divine name. I have two different editions, one from 1966 with the Koren Tanakh (i.e., OT) text and the Hebrew NT text as translated by Franz Delitzsch, and the other one (quite beautiful in leather zipper case) from 1991 with the BHS 1977 OT and the UBS (United Bible Society in Israel) NT 1976, revised 1991.

Both NT texts can be considered thoroughly researched translations and are generally accepted as the best possible text version of the NT in Hebrew according to current scholarship. They both use the Tetragrammation (i.e., the letters Yod-He-Waw-He) for the Greek kyrios with only minor variations starting with Mat 1:20 in many places in the NT text where there are either literal quotes from the OT (e.g., Romans 10:13 is Joel 2:32, so there should be no dissens on this one - the name belongs there) or direct allusions, but also e.g. in Romans 14 in a quite "flowing" way going from YHWH to Adonai (Lord) where it feels much more natural in the framework of the Hebrew text than it would in any English translation. (Of course, this use of the name and the "sliding" transition to "Lord" might well imply some sort of identity or "intersection" (in the math sense) between YHWH and the "Adonai" referred to here.)

Also keep in mind that for the Hebrew reader (also the modern one!) the divine name is unpronouncable for a grammatical reason: it is a grammatically non-existent present tense form of the verb "hayah" (inf. lihyot = "to be"). In Ex 3:14,15 when God reveals his name to Moses, he first uses the usual future tense EHYEH (I will be), but then goes over to the (non-existent) present tense form of the same verb, YHWH.

The divine name is a verb, though in a grammatical form that as such does not exist in the Hebrew language except as the divine name.

(Actually, linguistically it is a bit more complicated because Biblical Hebrew (BH) uses tenses in a different way from modern Hebrew - it knows perfect and imperfect forms but no "tenses" per se in our modern sense. But I think you get the idea...)

(Excuse my poor transliteration of Hebrew, but for some reason Hebrew writing seems not to work here on this board.)

41

Question for our scholars...

by tenyearsafter in

jw
friends

i was asked an interesting question by a jw relative and was not exactly sure how to answer it...thought i would throw it out to the scholars on the board:.

what was the expectation of an afterlife for faithful ones living before jesus was sacrificed?...did they believe they would have an afterlife on earth or in heaven?.

Morgana

In the Hebrew bible, with the patriarchs and on many other occasions, you can read phrases to the effect like: "...and he lived a fulfilled life and was satisfied and satiated and saw his offspring prosper, and then he died and was assembled to his fathers."

So basically, that would habe been "the expectation of an afterlife for faithful ones living before Jesus was sacrificed".

Our contemporary (i.e., typically Christian) hunger for infinite prolongation of life is a very modern invention. If you had experienced all there is to experience, if you see the next generations well on their way, and if you have no concept of progress in our contemporary sense - why would you desperately cling to "the same thing over and over again"?

Of course there is the idea of the Messiah who will eventually restore Israel to her proper status (and Jews pray for it to happen during their lifetime, God willing), but that is basically a political hope that is not immediately connected to the individual. If you have lived life as it was intended by God, then at the end of your allotted time you can be satisfied as the patriarchs were, and you can peacefully die and rest in eternity.

There is no idea whatsoever of a general afterlife and certainly no notion of any "resurrection". In Jewish thought, that came only much later under Christian influence; Moses Maimonides added it only in medieval times as the last item to the "13 Jewish Articles of Faith".

35

Did NOAH take WHALES into the ARK?

by african GB Member in

jw
friends

blue whale is the largest animal on earth,.... it would take huge cranes and a lot of manpower to carry one of those animals,.... how did noah achieve this?.

did he have cranes and chains?.

did he have a large enough aquarium on board, with salt water?.

Morgana

...and even today, it happens that about 1 in 500 whales grows atavistic hind legs.