im sure that this will interest some apologist .. from the book .
" riches " by j.f.
rutherford (publishers wtbs in 1936).
It's simple (a) God has always worked through an organization, (b) God hates heretics and (c) He changes the organization he works with every now and then. So the JWs are simply picking up where the Catholics left off, that is, after they got soft - or was it that they got religion? Anyway, now the WTS merrily persecutes those who dissent since the Catholics have lost their zeal for the true God.
herbert
he asked if i was going to the circuit assembly this weekend.
he asked why.
i just said after a long pause, dad it's not the truth (you have to understand that i'm the one who preached to this man and got him in the truth) the conversation lasted about 5 minutes with him saying well who else teaches the right thing, you have to understand, jehovah has to have an organization.
Cygnus,
In another thread you were talking about the logic of certain teachings. Let's assume, for the sake of argument only, that God does work through a single organization to which one must belong to achieve salvation. Is it logical that this organization would be a minor offshoot of Protestantism? After all, that excludes the vast majority of the world's population from the get go - why should someone born Chinese or Indian have an unfair disadvantage, based solely on where they were born, when it comes to joining that organization? It's hard enough for them to convert to Christianity let alone to a minor sect with a disturbing background and a track record of predicting the end repeatedly with devasting results for many of their followers.
As for mistakes, what makes the WTS's mistakes forgivable and those of other religions worthy of their clergy and their members being slaughtered - dead for eternity? Just read some of Rutherford's books from the 20s and 30s to see what will happen to the clergy and those who associate with them.
And finally, Cygnus, what do you think about the logic behind the WTS affiliating with the UN - is that a "forgivable mistake" when countless JWs have been jailed, killed or dfed over various aspects of "neutrality."
Herbert
ok, here's how it is.. i just finished reading the "dead" thread.
now, listen.
i do not believe in life after death.
Cygnus,
You said:
[Quote]
: Here's an example of something I still believe is logical about witness teaching. That the soul is not immortal. Prove to me logically that the soul is immortal. Prove to me that God is a trinity. Prove to me that there is a hell where people are tormented eternally. You said absolutely nothing that Jehovahs Witnesses teach is logical. There's 3 for you to start with.[\Quote]
Farkel is correct - there is actually nothing logical at all about any JW teachings. Take immortality of the soul, for example. On the one hand it looks logical that JWs define soul to be the same as "person" and clearly people die. But, they also maintain that the anointed are instantly transported to immortaility in heaven on their faithful death (after 1878 or 1914/1918.) So what's logical about that? In essense, for all practical purposes, they believe in a variant of immortality of the soul - it's retsricted to a few, and, while not strictly immortality, it amounts to the same thing. Entirely illogical.
How can anyone prove that God is or is not a trinity when it is impossible to prove anything at all about God, including his or her existence? Again, the JW position is not based in logic but doctrinal disagreements with other religions.
As for Hell, prove that there isn't one! It is not logical to ask proof either way over hypotheticals, especially when you cherry pick them. For example, if I maintain that violet colored unicorns orbit Pluto then you are right to ask for proof. But, if you maintain that no such unicorns exist, because it is more logical to believe that sepia-tinted three-legged virgins live on Mars, then you have no case.
No one can prove that Hell exists, but a failure to do so has absolutely no consequences for the validity of JW teachings or their logic. For example, I find it illogical that 144,000 will literally go to heaven, while those thrown into Gehenna do so only symbolically,accoding to JW teachings. Ultimately, if you discount Hell for lack of proof then you must do the same thing for Heaven.
Your comments on the subjective nature of "truth" suggest that you are going through a bad patch - I would suggest that you seek out someone to discuss this stuff with objectively.
Herbert
2002-2003 zealous kingdom proclaimers
district convention of jehovah's witnesses.
friday.
Welcome to the National Cheese Emporium - couldn't resist http://bau2.uibk.ac.at/sg/python/Scripts/TheCheeseShopSketch
2002-2003 zealous kingdom proclaimers
district convention of jehovah's witnesses.
friday.
But I came here for an argument, Prisca. This is the argument clinic isn't it?
Matty, I used to dream of going to HickenTwam - that is when I weren't cleaning't septic tank out with my tongue. But you try and tell that to the young 'uns. Eee, lad, many's day we we were shot to death by angry farmers when we tried to place magazines with them - and after crawling through pits of hot gravel as well.
Remember that big Int. Convention at Twickers in the 70s - forget what year? We camped close by in a wet field after driving down from Lancashire in a beat up old black Mini with a rotten subframe.
Herbert
2002-2003 zealous kingdom proclaimers
district convention of jehovah's witnesses.
friday.
Matty,
"And we were beaten by the attendants with a stick if we were late - ahhh, happy days!" "
You had attendants who had sticks? You were lucky. We had Nazi storm troopers who'd stuff old carpet down our throats with toilet plungers. Then they'd cut us into 4 parts with rusty saws and feed us to the pigeons. And the assemblies lasted 36 hours a day and we had to do 48 hours of street witnessing every day before the sessions started outside Bolton Wanderer's football stadium in the rain.
Aye, them we'rt days - wouldn't trade 'em for nowt - well, 'appen for one of them soggy tomato sarnies the sisters used to serve up on trestle tables while we queued up to get our heads sawn off for talking during the program.
Herbert
i got the new stafford book yesterday, and spent two hours running thru it, just getting an overview.
and greg stafford's book is a must, an incredibly "good book".
i hope everyone here gets it and reads it, and takes it for what it is - an honest study, research, where the theology, the bible-based teachings are held in high esteem, and the organizational, man-made practices, the legalism of the society, is critizised and exposed.
I also received Stafford's latest and it is a vast improvement over his previous attempts. However, Stafford does not yet deserve to be called a scholar - he remains something of an apologist. For example, AlanF stated that Stafford's view is that the 1914 teaching should be a matter of "conscience." How on earth conscience comes in to the evaluation of (a) historical and astronomical evidence and (b) clear statements in the Bible that negate the Society's 607/70years/1914 chronology are beyond me. A scholar does not normally recommend that failed theories are believable if one's conscience so decides.
Essentially, Stafford is stating that JWs should be free to decide to believe what now amounts to a lie if their consciences so dictate. That is neither scholarly nor Christian.
Greg still has a long way to go. Nevertheless, his latest is laudable despite his sedulous attempts to find good in obviously failed doctrines.
Herbert
i thought this deserved its own thread...below is a reply a made to one of the previous threads ( http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=24473&site=3 ) and i am anxious for someone to refute it...or maybe i'm right.. not quite...it seems everyone is muddling the details on this.. it seems that james mccann, who donated the stocks to the wt, invented an improved rotary engine called a rand cam engine.
his company, the rand cam engine corp is a privately held company, but he has donated 50% of the stock to the wt (but retained the voting proxy so the wt has no say in what is going on), he owns 34% and the balance is owned by several shareholders.
this company is half owner of another company called rand energy group.
Freeman,
It isn't helpful to say that "a WT owned company" does this or that unless the WTS actually owns the company. If the WTS merely holds stock in a company then they don't own the company. The WTS supposedly owns stock in IBM which obviously does military work but it can hardly be said that "IBM is a WT owned company."
Stuff like this tends to support the WTS rhetoric about "apostate lies." Better to be dealy accurate and precise than to give them loopholes through exaggeration or inaccuracies.
herbert
i would like to take this opportunity to give a brief account of the events that i have had to under go over the last 5 weeks.
i have been a jehovahs witness for 38 years and all of my close family are currently active jws.
i got married to my wife in march 1999, she was a baptized witness and had been for over 30 years.
ukexjw,
This last winter a journalist, Stephen Bates, for the Manchester Guardian wrote some excelllent articles on JWs. Apparently there is also interest in the JWs from a prominent BBC program.
I don;t know if it would do any good - but I would strongly suggest writing to Mr Bates who is actually a member of this board. His email is:
He seems very responsive to JW issues.
here's a link to on eof his articles too: http://www.thetablet.co.uk/cgi-bin/archive_db.cgi?tablet-00577
You might have to register, but it's free.
herbert
there's a very good question to stump a jw(hope i have spelled the place right?!).
it says in my niv study bible it toke place c.609 bc so therefore the fall of jerusalem toke place approxiametly(sic)20 years later according to the bible.. if you say carchemish toke place in 627,`can you provide evidence of this?
' might be a good question to a jw.
scholar (or is it, perhaps, "skolar");
You stated:
I have not responded to Alan's questions because I plan a holistic approach to the seventy years. It is pointless to discuss a single aspect unless the whole is completed otherwise it leads to a treadmill of questions and answers.The simple question is WHY? After all, the WTS has taught for years that its chronology is not only correct but has also been revealed to them by God. It has not adopted a "holistic" approach whereas Jonsson and others clearly have.
If the WTS cannot answer the questions raised - and they certainly cannot, otherwise they would have - then why do you think that you can outdo God's channel. Your "holistic" approach promise is no more than dishonest dissembling.
All you are doing is hiding behind your purported degrees hoping that JWs will do the usual thing - comfort themselves that while they cannot understand it, someone can.
Face it "scholar," no honest scholar would behave as you do. You would have the skin stripped from your bones at a meeting of true academic experts and you know it. What's more, your writing "abilites" and debating methods demonstrate that perhaps, you are mistaking "scholar" with "schoolchild."
In any event, you show yourself to be a typical dishonest defender of this Kult's Krazy Khronology.
herbert
