Posts by Damocles

67

Mental Illness with Jehovah's Witnesses

by Hope4Others in

this presentation goes over jerry bergman's research on mental illness with jehovah's witnesses.

this includes over 8 different research projects conducted by different doctors.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urbxtvuat1g.

Damocles

This is a subject near and dear to me since its had such a destructive effect on my life and my children's. I've always wondered whether mentally ill people were drawn to the religion or whether the religion was a causative factor in developing such. I don't know, but I suspect its a little bit of both.

Remember all those experiences where the person was in the midst of suicide preparations and a dub came calling? And then all was well. Sounds like the religion draws in people with some pretty severe problems. On the other hand, I have some experience with delusional dubs and its all about the religion.

Also, its such a depressing, guilt-ridden place that Mary Poppins might consider wrist slitting. On the other hand, I know some mentally ill people who I think do better in the religion. Adds some structure to their life. And so on. Like I said I can't come to any firm conclusion. I can say unequivically (SP?) that my current circle of friends and acquaintances has nothing like the incidence of depression and other assorted mental illnesses I found in my witness 'friends'.

Just a pedantic note. Correlation is not causation. It takes more than that. Most of the outrageous claims of the day are based on that particular weakness of the human mind.

46

A little advice needed on disassociating myself

by MisfitMeL in

yes i know i tend to post here only when i need advice or have something to rant about .

so i'm living in the uk but leaving very shortly to go back to my home country of india and try my career luck there (what with the recession and all that).

i'll be living with my mum for a while and i am soooo not looking forward to it.

Damocles

Misfitmel

One thing to keep in mind is that you are dealing with two distinct, separate issues that ought not to be confused.

The first is your religous beliefs or the lack thereof. Frankly, that is a very personal matter that we may or may not chose to share with others, even our parents, but it is very much our choice.

The second is boundaries in the relationship with your mother.

I'd say you need to get the second right before you even begin to consider the first.

Don't start off talking about your ideas on religion, start off discussing whether you have a right to your own opinions. Establish a level of respect for each others ideas before any discussions begin.

I had a boss who would randomly decide to micromanage an operation. He was authoritative and aggressive, but often right. I was responsible for designing a new laboratory and in a meeting we me and my direct boss, he wanted to pass judgements on my decisions. My first question to him was "Who decides? You or me?" Boy, did the sparks fly. But we established that he did not want to be involved in every little minor decision and that he would have to trust me. Once done, he was pleased with the result. Lesson being that we could not have an intelligent discussion until we had the roles established.

Establish the boundaries with your mom, then get to the religion. But if she won't accept the boundaries, any discussion is doomed to frustration and probably anger on both sides. That would be unfortunate. Sounds like you two need each other.

Best Regards

Damocles

46

A little advice needed on disassociating myself

by MisfitMeL in

yes i know i tend to post here only when i need advice or have something to rant about .

so i'm living in the uk but leaving very shortly to go back to my home country of india and try my career luck there (what with the recession and all that).

i'll be living with my mum for a while and i am soooo not looking forward to it.

Damocles

Tough situation. You have my sympathies.

Its as hard to give sensible advice as it is to take it. Well not quite so hard maybe, but hard enough to see things through your eyes.

One thing to seriously consider is what your mom will do when she discovers you intend to officially quit (I don't use either D word). The dubs seem to be going through another of their 'paroxysm of paranoia' spells and there is pretty strong pressure now for good dubs to stay away from the fallen - even family members. How would your mom respond to pressure to not let you live with her? What would you do if she said you can't stay if you've quit?

As to arguments with mom, family and other dubs, well there's a saying 'argue with a crazy person and you lose...even if you win, you lose'. You can substitute JW for crazy in that saying and miss nothing. Generally, all a 'discussion' will do is make you upset and probably confused at which point your mom may sense she is making some headway and really go for the jugular. (The reasons for the confusion have all to do with dub rhetorical practice and little to do with your own sense of logic and reason - a whole other topic.)

I'm with rebel8 on this one. If you decide you need to officially quit for your own peace of mind (which is what I did), then simple is probably best. "To whom it may concern, I am no longer one of Jehovah's witnesses. Signature". What the dubs do with that is their business...but maybe your mom's as well. If you don't need to formally quit right now, then it may be best to slide along (which is what my son did) so you can keep body and soul together till you can move out. They finally kicked my son out, but by that time it didn't matter so much. Surely, you have developed some techniques for appeasing your mom without giving in totally. If not, best plan on making the home stay very, very brief.

Abraham Lincoln coined a wonderful phrase when he didn't want to argue and wanted to appear to agree with some ludicrous statement. He'd say "I shouldn't wonder" in a voice full of emotion and nod or shake his head. The information content of that phrase, however, is zero.

Good luck with it all. In one fashion or another, most of us on this site have faced a similar situation, so you have our understanding, although trust us, the hard part - quitting in your own mind - is past you.

Damocles

80

phrases that annoy you

by John Doe in

jw
friends

" users of this phrase are anything but sorry.

what they mean is "i'm an asshole.

now i'm going to prove it.

Damocles

"more fully" - a worthy feat if you can do it

"change the paradigm" - I suppose we might want to change a model verb conjugation, but I can't understand why and how we'd go about it

"disassociated" - sounds like a salt that lost its saltiness

"disfellowshipped" - words only good for scrabble

"we can see from this scripture...." were that true there would be no need to say anthing more besides reading it

"with all due respect" while thinking you are a jackass or a fool and preparing to publicize your opinion

"obviously" neat way to end an arguement before it begins

Any prequalifying term makes me nervous such as "to be honest", "trust me" "I don't want to start a fight but..." etc. Such a preface makes me think the opposite. I sort of assume honesty and for someone to explicitly state they are being honest this time, calls up all sorts of questions about other conversations.

Here's a good one, 'he made a quantum leap'

The implication is that its a big jump. Problem is that quantum differences are really quite, quite small. The term just refers to the fact that it is a discrete phenomenon not a continuous one.

36

DF or DA what do you think the difference is?

by Rosey in

jw
friends

i would like to know from everyone first of all what they think the difference is between a df'd person and a da'd person.. i would also like to know what everyone thinks that jw's think is the difference between a df'd and da'd person.. personally i am df'd.

i was df'd 10 years ago almost and did not argue it at all as i had no desire to continue as a jw anyway.

before being df'd i was always under the impression that if a person da'd themselves it almost always meant they were " apostate" and that there was no way a jw should have any contact with them.

Damocles

Do the dubs still make the distinction between DA and DF? I thought I heard that they just went to some generic statement about not associating with the person for both cases.

To answer part of the original question: I did not and do not recognize the implications inherent in either term. Its all part of the dub world view and I reject it lock, stock and barrel.

I quit. How they want to rephrase it is their business. Now, I would, of course, have viewed it differently had I wanted to stay in and they kicked me out. I probably would have gone from feeling rejected and depressed to feeling liberated. But, they do have the right to decide who's in their club.

In talking to a few folks who left, there seems to be a difference of opinion about quitting or being kicked out. Some think its important to remain dedicated to god and not quit i.e. "I maintained my dedication to god, its you folks who have strayed off the path" I can't really argue that. For myself, though, it was important for me to quit and not wait to be kicked out.

Its hard to generalize about what the R&F thinks about things. In my experience, most dubs won't accept an honest difference of opinion, they think you must be off to drunken orgies. When I quit, the dude I gave the letter to wanted to know why I quit. I said that I simply no longer believed what JWs taught. He said (loose paraphrase) "So you no longer can live up to God's moral standards."

Well, it was pretty clear that conversation was going nowhere. So, I'm pretty sure quite a few dubs make little distinction between DA and DF. I think a lot believe its sex, drug or alcohol at the root, even if we say we disagree with the teachings and the org.

49

Hiking and Trail Safety tips...

by ziddina in

i've done quite a bit of hiking on mountain trails, semi-arid prairie trails, and desert trails... i'd like to pass along a few tips for survival.... first and foremost!!!

i've seen so many people blundering down the local trails with music blaring in their ears, 'bluetooth' hands' free phones in their ears, and so on.... these people are just asking to be taken down by some sort of predator.

the first time i was stalked by a cougar, my ears alerted me to the fact i was in danger!!

Damocles

Zid

I surely agree about the headphones...for safety sure, but I go the woods to escape civilization. Kind of defeats the purpose if I'm head banging to Led Zeppelin.

I think advice on trail safety must take into account the locale. Currently, we don't have much of an issue with cats or even bears much here in PA. I see loads of bear scat but no bears.

To some extent, I like solo hiking because of, not in spite of, the danger. Reminds me that, curiously, nature doesn't have a vested interest in my survival.

Two things I would add to your list. Do use the trail log when hiking in desolate country if there is one. Most trails in Pa have them. That way if you do get into trouble, its easier for rescuers to find you. Also, make sure someone knows your hiking plan. Again, if you are in trouble its easier to be located. My significant others won't have much idea of where I might be if I just mention the park, forest, trail or game land.

I don't carry any offensive protection. Particularly not a gun. First, I'm skeptical that any handgun will have much effect on a bear besides making it even more angry. You almost have to shoot the eye to do much good. Second, bears are fast. At my age, I am pretty sure my reaction time just won't keep up. Finally, to be sure I could hit the bear I'd have to spend quite a bit of time at a practice range and I don't find that prospect very interesting anymore. So I just take my chances.

My dad would add that you should never hike alone... I know but I like the solitude.

OK to be gross, I urinate close to my camping site. I have heard the scent keeps critters away. I tried moth balls but god they stink!

Finally, the critter that scared me the most in all my hiking was a grouse (sic?). I was hiking along a wide trail, zoned out being one with nature when the grouse exploded from the tree no more than 2 feet from me and at head level. Scared the poop out of me. I had some personal hygiene issues to attend to immediately after that.

Damocles

29

Is Being Disfellowshipped or Disassociated All That Bad?

by minimus in

jw
friends

most jws dread the thought of never being talked to again by a fellow "brother" or "sister".

the thought of being shunned by your flesh and blood keeps many witnesses in the religion.. is df'ing or dissasociation all that terrible?

?.

Damocles

I quit about 7 years ago. I just abhor the DA word both for the context and the poor english, so I refuse to use it. I did write a simple letter letting them know that I no longer considered myself to be a witness and gave it to one of the leaders.

The anticipation was much worse than the reality, although I did and continue to be ignored by some of my children and that hurts. I also miss some of my good friends and as we get on in age that seems to matter more. On the other hand, I have lost that perpetual guilty feeling. I thoroughly enjoy life and the good parts of it. I am more true to myself in the sense that I don't spend five hours a week listening to gibberish and nodding like I agree. I could go on and on. On balance, the good far, far outweighs the bad.

If I may, I would like to rephrase your question: "Is leaving as good as it seems it might be?"

Yes it is.

Damocles

43

"Commenting" at Meetings

by cameo-d in

i don't quite understand why you call it commenting.. when i attended meeting the question at end were read.. when people "commented" it was never a real comment.. it was just reading back word for word a sentence or two from the paragraph that answered the question.. i would think "commentary" would be something you put in your own words and give a personal statement about it.. .

why do you call it "comments" when it is more like reciting?.

or is it different in other kh?.

Damocles

Anyone have specific comments you've made that you still remember and that embarrass you even now?

I still remember a comment I made (~ 1978) in support of the Evolution book's 2nd law of thermodynamics argument against evolution. I sounded all scientific, ponderous and authoritative even though my credentials on the subject were meager to say the least (one course each in physics and chemistry). Some years later, I took some advanced courses in thermo and realized I really blew it. Did nothing but uncover my ignorance for all to see. Sure wish I could go back in time and clap a hand over that young, naive boy's mouth and maybe thump him on the back of the head for good measure.

43

"Commenting" at Meetings

by cameo-d in

i don't quite understand why you call it commenting.. when i attended meeting the question at end were read.. when people "commented" it was never a real comment.. it was just reading back word for word a sentence or two from the paragraph that answered the question.. i would think "commentary" would be something you put in your own words and give a personal statement about it.. .

why do you call it "comments" when it is more like reciting?.

or is it different in other kh?.

Damocles

The joke around our house was to answer every question with 'the anointed in 1919'. Guess that might not work so well now.

We figured you would be spot-on 50% of the time and close enough 25%. For the remaining 25%, you'd have the satisfaction of watching some folks jolt up from dozing trying to figure out how the hell anyone got that out the paragraph.

I can remember feeling ornery one book study night when the book (forget which one) quoted David Hume's essay on miracles. So I went back to the original source and 'commented' that the book misquoted Hume, even with quotation marks it was a paraphrase and a bad one. Misquotes are bad enough, but they grossly mangled Hume's argument - as is their wont. So I said so. Boy, did I get in trouble. It was some fun though.

10

Swine flu and the understanding of science.

by Spook in

i've gotten sick of responding to swine flu posts, so i'll say my peace here:.

pandemic is a word with a specific meaning.

words have meanings and it matters.

Damocles

Hi Rebel,

I do agree that the health officials of the CDC and WHO have been exemplary. The US gov't has been quite good also. A lot of the media though will say 'we aren't trying to hype this, but'.... then they hype it. Like saying that Dr Chan of WHO stated that this pandemic 'threatens all humanity'. The comment was taken out of context like Biden's. What she said was that all nations should cooperate on dealing with the pandemic since such diseases affect 'threaten' all of humanity not just select nations. A very different context than reported in the media. She sure didn't imply this is a species killer.

These days with the internet there is no reason not to go to original sources.

Damocles