Your efforts are noble indeed Bonafide!
Our forefathers died fighting against oppression - died to give us the freedom we cherish so much today.
Yet, without a single shot being fired, the WTS has succeeded in controlling the minds and actions of millions in the name of God - contrary to Christian freedom Christ advocated!
A true friend will not hold back from endeavouring to open a closed mind - sometimes at great personal cost.
What they choose to do after being aware of the real truth is their business - but the duty of care has been discharged
Lukewarm
LUKEWARM
JoinedPosts by LUKEWARM
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The cost of going undercover to help family and friends - Is it worth it?
by BonaFide inso all of you that are trying to help your family and friends as a disassociated person, or disfellowshipped, or sort-of-shunned.. what do you think about getting reinstated or reactivated to help them get out?.
the time invested would be two meetings a week, about 6 hours total including driving.
for those on the outside, you would have to get reinstated, so you would need 2-3 months of going to meetings making sure the elders see you and know your intention.. add field service in there.
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LUKEWARM
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Congregation "Bible Study" Comments - Week Commencing 11 May 2009
by LUKEWARM in209-212 head coverings-when and why?
head coverings-when and why?.
paul mentions two: prayer and prophesying.
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LUKEWARM
*** lv pp. 209-212 Head Coverings-When and Why? ***
Head Coverings-When and Why?
When and why should a Christian woman wear a head covering in connection with her worship? Let us consider the apostle Paul's inspired discussion of this subject. He provides the guidance we need in order to make good decisions, ones that honor God. (1 Corinthians 11:3-16) Paul reveals three factors to weigh: (1) the activities that call for a woman to wear such a covering, (2) the settings in which she should do so, and (3) the motives for her to apply this standard.
The activities. Paul mentions two: prayer and prophesying. (Verses 4, 5) Prayer, of course, is worshipful address to Jehovah. Today, prophesying would apply to any Bible-based teaching that a Christian minister does. Is Paul suggesting, though, that a woman should cover her head whenever she prays or teaches Bible truth? No. The setting in which a woman prays or teaches makes all the difference.
Bible truth = WTS interpretation
Watchtower, August 1, 2001, p. 14:
"A mature Christian must be in unity and full harmony with fellow believers as far as faith and knowledge are concerned. He does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding. Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and 'the faithful and discreet slave."
The settings. Paul's words suggest two settings, or spheres of activity-the family and the congregation. He says: "The head of a woman is the man . . . Every woman that prays or prophesies with her head uncovered shames her head." (Verses 3, 5) In the family arrangement, the woman's husband is the one whom Jehovah designates as her head. Unless she gives due recognition to her husband's authority, she would shame her husband if she handled responsibilities that Jehovah assigns to him. For example, if it became necessary for her to conduct a Bible study in her husband's presence, she would acknowledge his authority by wearing a head covering. She would do so whether he is baptized or not, since he is the head of the family. If she were to pray or to teach in the presence of her minor baptized son, she would likewise wear a head covering, not because he is the head of the family, but because of the authority granted to baptized male members of the Christian congregation.
Where did Paul say she must wear a head covering?
If God can read the heart, why does a woman need to show she acknowledges husbands authority by putting this on?
This is ridiculous - how far are they taking this: "If she were to pray or to teach in the presence of her minor baptized son, she would likewise wear a head covering"
Paul mentions the congregation setting, saying: "If any man seems to dispute for some other custom, we have no other, neither do the congregations of God." (Verse 16) In the Christian congregation, headship is given to baptized males. (1 Timothy 2:11-14; Hebrews 13:17) Only males are appointed as elders and ministerial servants with the God-given responsibility to care for the flock of God. (Acts 20:28) Occasionally, though, circumstances may require that a Christian woman be called on to handle a duty normally performed by a qualified baptized male. For instance, she may need to conduct a meeting for field service because a qualified baptized male is not available or present. Or she may conduct a prearranged home Bible study in the presence of a baptized male. Because such activities are really extensions of the Christian congregation, she would wear a head covering to acknowledge that she is handling the duty normally assigned to a male.
Doesn't the Bible say: "but if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her? Because her hair is given her instead of a headdress". 1Cor 11:15
On the other hand, many aspects of worship do not call for a sister to wear a head covering. For example, she does not need to do so when commenting at Christian meetings, engaging in the door-to-door ministry with her husband or another baptized male, or studying or praying with her unbaptized children. Of course, other questions may arise, and if a sister is unsure about a matter, she may do additional research. If still unsure and if her conscience moves her to do so, wearing a head covering would not be wrong.
The motives. In verse 10, we find two reasons why a Christian woman would want to fulfill this requirement: "The woman ought to have a sign of authority upon her head because of the angels." First, note the expression, "a sign of authority." Wearing a head covering is a way for a woman to show that she acknowledges the authority that Jehovah has placed upon baptized males in the congregation. Hence, she expresses her love for and loyalty to Jehovah God. A second reason is found in the words "because of the angels." How does a woman affect those mighty spirit creatures by wearing a head covering?
The angels are interested in seeing that divine authority is recognized throughout Jehovah's organization, in heaven and on earth. They also benefit from the examples of imperfect humans in this regard. After all, they too have to be submissive to Jehovah's arrangement-a test that more than a few angels failed in times past. (Jude 6) Now, the angels may see instances when a Christian woman is more experienced, more knowledgeable, and more intelligent than a baptized male in the congregation; yet, she readily shows her submission to his authority. In some cases, the woman is an anointed Christian who will later become one of Christ's joint heirs. Such a woman will eventually serve in a position even higher than that enjoyed by angels and rule with Christ in heaven. What a fine example for the angels to observe now! Really, what a privilege all sisters have to demonstrate humble obedience through their loyal and submissive conduct in the sight of millions of faithful angels!
Assumption upon assumption here..."Wearing a head covering is a way for a woman to show that she acknowledges the authority that Jehovah has placed upon baptized males in the congregation"
[Footnotes]
A Christian wife would not normally pray aloud in the presence of her believing husband except in unusual circumstances, such as if he has been rendered mute by an illness. For more information, please see The Watchtower, July 15, 2002, pages 26-7, and February 15, 1977, pages 125-8. -
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My latest letter to the org and their reply
by uncle_onion inso we can see that the early jehovah witnesses believed that jesus parousia began in 1874. the truth book states this above and it is in all the old books.
so we can see that the early jehovah witnesses believed that jesus parousia began in 1874. the truth book states this above and it is in all the old books.
this statement is coming from the organization that offered the scholarship and keeps written records of such.
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LUKEWARM
Where is the honesty and humility of "Gods Organization" to admit and apologise for goofing this up - for running ahead of God?
Where is the candour?
The cover-up of this "food at the proper time" is disgusting.
Just think, Christ in Kingdom power selects them in 1919 and it takes them 29 years (1943) to figure this out!!!
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Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 05-10-09 WT Study (PRIZE)
by blondie in6:10; rev.
3: 7, the things that most people consider .
people then will have perfect health and will live on an earth that has been transformed into a paradise.
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LUKEWARM
Wonderful comments as always Blondie!
The article abounds with so many assumptions and cherry picked scriptures to "prove" paradise earth...
Surprising why Jesus did not teach the masses about paradise earth or at least made it a little clearer that this hope is a valid one if it features so prominently in Gods purpose.
How could it be that Jesus, the Apostles or first century Christians did not preach to others nor teach paradise earth?
Another example of the WTS going "beyond the things written" and teaching the masses their interpretation of the Bible -
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Congregation Bible Study Comments - Week Commencing 4 May 2009
by LUKEWARM in[box on page 46, 47].
"listen to counsel and accept discipline".
satan's spirit-his rebellious, contentious attitude-fills today's world.
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LUKEWARM
The book is “Keep Yourselves In God's Love”
Try this link for the download
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/160479/1/2008-Keep-Yourselves-In-Gods-Love-PDF
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Congregation Bible Study Comments - Week Commencing 4 May 2009
by LUKEWARM in[box on page 46, 47].
"listen to counsel and accept discipline".
satan's spirit-his rebellious, contentious attitude-fills today's world.
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LUKEWARM
[Box on page 46, 47]
"LISTEN TO COUNSEL AND ACCEPT DISCIPLINE"Satan's spirit-his rebellious, contentious attitude-fills today's world. The Bible thus refers to Satan as "the ruler of the authority of the air" and mentions the resulting "spirit that now operates in the sons of disobedience." (Ephesians 2:2) Many today want to be completely independent of the authority of others. Sadly, that spirit of independence has even infected some in the Christian congregation. For example, an elder may offer some kindly counsel on the dangers of immoral or violent entertainment, but some may resist or even resent the counsel. Each of us needs to apply the words of Proverbs 19:20: "Listen to counsel and accept discipline, in order that you may become wise in your future."
"...spirit of independence has even infected some in the Christian congregation." This really means they don't want people thinking for themselves. Despite God giving them a brain, such ones become like Satan!
What can help us in this regard? Consider three common reasons why people resist counsel or discipline, and then note the Scriptural viewpoint.
? "I don't think the counsel was appropriate." We may feel that the counsel does not really fit our circumstances or that the one giving it did not grasp the whole picture. Our immediate reaction might even be to belittle the counsel. (Hebrews 12:5) Since we are all imperfect, is it not possible that our own view of the matter is what needs adjusting? (Proverbs 19:3) Was there not some valid reason for the counsel to be given? Then that is what we need to focus on. God's Word advises us: "Take hold on discipline; do not let go. Safeguard it, for it itself is your life."-Proverbs 4:13.
If only Brooklyn would follow their own advice "is it not possible that our own view of the matter is what needs adjusting?" and make changes when errors are pointed out to them.
http://www.607v587.com/websitepage4.htm
http://www.ajwrb.org/watchtower/index.shtml
http://www.watchtowerletters.com/Home.html
? "I don't like the way the counsel was given." Granted, God's Word sets a high standard for the way counsel should be given. (Galatians 6:1) However, the Bible also says: "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23) The only way that we can ever receive perfect counsel delivered in just the right way is to receive it from a perfect person. (James 3:2) Jehovah uses imperfect humans to counsel us, so it is wise to avoid focusing on the way the counsel is given. Look, rather, to the content of the counsel, and prayerfully consider how to apply it.
Unfortunately, it's not what you say but how you say it
? "He is in no position to counsel me!" If we think that personal faults in the counselor invalidate his counsel, we need to remember the points noted above. Likewise, if we think that our age, experience, or responsibilities in the congregation somehow put us above counsel, we need to readjust our thinking. In ancient Israel, the king had great responsibilities, yet he had to accept counsel from prophets, priests, and others who were among his subjects. (2 Samuel 12:1-13; 2 Chronicles 26:16-20) Today, Jehovah's organization appoints imperfect men to offer counsel, and mature Christians gladly accept it and apply it. If we have greater responsibilities or experience than others do, we should be even more conscious of the need to set an example in reasonableness and humility by accepting counsel and applying it.-1 Timothy 3:2, 3; Titus 3:2.
Wonder if they think of themselves when saying "...if we think that our age, experience, or responsibilities in the congregation somehow put us above counsel, we need to readjust our thinking."
Where is the proof that they are "Jehovah's organization"?
Imperfect fallible men who are not inspired, "appoint" other "imperfect men to offer counsel" which may be wrong because its based on some interpretation, speculation or manipulation of what the Bible actually doesn't say, but MATURE "...Christians gladly accept it and apply it"!!!
Clearly, none of us is above counsel. So let us be resolved to accept counsel readily, apply it obediently, and thank Jehovah heartily for this lifesaving gift. Counsel really is an expression of Jehovah's love for us, and we want to remain in God's love.-Hebrews 12:6-11.
Disgusting how they thrust Jehovah into the picture here when the counsel offered usually is not directly outlined in the Bible for a Christian, but requires mental gymnastics for one to reach the Brooklyn interpretation/standard eg no beards, "we can only accept blood fractions", "can you do more in service", "punctuality at the meeting is important", birthdays are pagan etc
BOX on page 48, 49 - "BE OBEDIENT TO THOSE WHO ARE TAKING THE LEAD"In ancient Israel, there was an urgent need for organization. Moses alone could not oversee millions of people traveling together in a dangerous wilderness. What did he do? "Moses proceeded to choose capable men out of all Israel and to give them positions as heads over the people, as chiefs of thousands, chiefs of hundreds, chiefs of fifties and chiefs of tens."-Exodus 18:25.
What parallel can the Christian arrangement have with "...ancient Israel"
In the Christian congregation today, there is a similar need for organization. That is why a book study group has an overseer, a congregation has elders, a group of congregations has a circuit overseer, a group of circuits has a district overseer, and a country has a Country Committee or a Branch Committee. Because of this organization, each man acting as a shepherd is able to pay close attention to Jehovah's sheep assigned to his care. Such shepherds are accountable to Jehovah and to Christ.-Acts 20:28.
Does the word "organization" appear in the Bible?
"...a book study group has an overseer" - Hasn't the "book study group" been replaced with the "Congregation Bible Study"?
Where does the Bible speak that Christians should subject themselves to any "organization"?
This organizational arrangement calls for each of us to be obedient and submissive. Never would we want to have the attitude of Diotrephes, who had no respect for those taking the lead in his day. (3 John 9, 10) Rather, we want to heed the words of the apostle Paul, who wrote: "Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over your souls as those who will render an account; that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you." (Hebrews 13:17) Some obey when they agree with the direction coming from those taking the lead but refuse to submit when they disagree with the direction or cannot see the reason for it. Keep in mind, though, that being submissive can include the idea that we obey even when we are not inclined to do so. Each of us, then, does well to ask himself, 'Am I obedient and submissive to those taking the lead over me?'
Obedient to Jesus as the head of the congregation or to imperfect men "appointed" by the WTS?
Of course, God's Word does not spell out every arrangement or procedure needed to help the congregation function. Yet, the Bible does say: "Let all things take place decently and by arrangement." (1 Corinthians 14:40) The Governing Body obeys this direction by putting in place various helpful procedures and guidelines that ensure the smooth and orderly operation of the congregation. Responsible Christian men do their part by setting an example of obedience as they put such arrangements into effect. They also show themselves "reasonable, ready to obey" those placed in oversight. (James 3:17) Thus, each book study, congregation, circuit, district, and country is blessed with a united, orderly body of believers who reflect well on the happy God.-1 Corinthians 14:33; 1 Timothy 1:11.
What a twisting of scriptures to suit their agenda!
On the other hand, Paul's words found at Hebrews 13:17 also highlight why a disobedient spirit is harmful. It may cause those in positions of responsibility to do their work "with sighing." What should be considered a privilege of sacred service can feel like a burden when a brother must deal with an uncooperative, rebellious spirit in the flock. In turn, damage results "to you," the entire congregation. Of course, there is yet another form of damage that results when a person refuses to submit to theocratic order. It hurts his spirituality if he is too proud to submit, putting distance between him and his heavenly Father. (Psalm 138:6) Let us all, then, be determined to remain obedient and submissive.
Seriously, was Paul in Hebrews really referring to WTS "appointed" elders who are governed by a centralized body in Brooklyn who claim to be Gods mouthpiece on the earth?
What does Psalm 138:6 have to do with the Christian congregation/arrangement? -
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Congregation Bible Study Comments - Week Commencing 27 April 2009
by LUKEWARM in*** lv chap.
4 pp.
what role does jehovah assign to the husband and father in the family, and how may a man fulfill that role?.
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LUKEWARM
Not sure Marcopolo - Will let you know if I find something....
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is it really worth trying to change their minds?
by homeschool inafter reading steven hassan's book, i really believe the jw's are in a high mind control group, like so many other cult-like religions.
one point stuck out to me though....hassan said he will not do interventions if the purpose is selfishly motivated.
i don't know why, but it's made me question some things.
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LUKEWARM
I am a big believer in giving people information so they can make an informed decision. Obviously in this religion, this is risky business but I feel compassion for the friends and am seeking appropriate opportunities to get them thinking.
If the situation was reversed and they had the info, I would want them to seek ways to share this with me - despite my "blinkered" thinking - that would only be fair if they were true friends.
Once they are exposed to the information, what they choose from that point forward is their business - but at least its an informed decision!
If only somebody was kind enough to tactfully prompt my thinking - It's a rude awakening when you read "Crisis of Conscience" and "In search of Christian Freedom" in the space of 6 weeks... -
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The WT asks: Was the Flood of Noah's Day Really Global?
by undercover inthe subject of the day at watchower.org is about noah's flood.. a direct link to the article is here: http://www.watchtower.org/e/20080601/article_01.htm.
in the article highlighted this comment is made:.
geologists studying the landscape of the northwestern united states believe that as many as 100 ancient catastrophic floods once washed over the area.
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LUKEWARM
For me, reading the below well thought out letters about the flood to the governing body were an awakening - and their response unbelievable!
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The Best Word I have learned on this Forum - Thanks Everyone!!!
by BonaFide inthat word is "define.
" witnesses redefine words all over the place, and use trick words to obscure what they are really saying.. i have been able to sort through so much garbage just by using that word.
me: define updates.
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LUKEWARM
Love your approach with the friends Bonafide - Reverse psychology is a great tool and works wonders!