Posts by Cadellin

77

On Human Evolution

by TD in

jw
friends

it's a subject that comes up fairly often here (understandably) and very strong opinions are expressed.

much of the discussion seems to be counterproductive.. i'd like to propose a different approach.

we all know what each other's conclusions are (or at least we should by now).

Cadellin

I agree, there is much variation (within a kind) in the real world. However, I wouldn't call these variations "transitional" into another kind.

It's not a matter of simple variation, which can occur randomly within any contemporary population, but rather of those variations, to use the term, occurring within specific time periods. When you examine those variations within a chronological timeframe, as TD has lined up the skulls, then the transitional significance of those variations becomes clear, particularly when considered against the backdrop of geological and climatological patterns. In fact, that's how evolution works. Random variations take on "good" or "bad" significance only in view of the prevailing environmental pressures and can come to dominate a population when they convey some benefit, even if very small.

However, you added a very good point, and that is that the WT view of creationism isn't the only view out there. Toward the end of the transitional fossils essay that I linked to, the writer (whose name escapes me, aggh) discusses something like five different creation scenarios and how each does or does not harmonize with the fossil record. Pretty interesting--the WT likes to make out that you're either a creationist or an athiest, and nothing could be further from the truth.

I want to add more but gotta run!!

77

On Human Evolution

by TD in

jw
friends

it's a subject that comes up fairly often here (understandably) and very strong opinions are expressed.

much of the discussion seems to be counterproductive.. i'd like to propose a different approach.

we all know what each other's conclusions are (or at least we should by now).

Cadellin

Really? You learned that at what school?

The WT school, of course!

"[DNA] is very stable and has served to maintain the distinction b/w basic kinds of creatures down through the ages." (WT 2/15/2011, p. 9)

"...There is a limit to the amount of variation that can occur within a "kind." Both the fossil record and modern research support the idea that the fundamental categories of plants and animals have changed little over vast periods of time." (Was Life Created? p. 28)

"If living things were created, they would be expected to appear suddenly in the fossil record, unconnected to anything before them." (Life--How Did it Get Here? p. 57) (emphasis added.)

One of the fundamental differences b/w evolution and creation is the belief that species arise through acts of special creation, not from existing species. Hence, it follows that, according to creation, species (or "kinds," whatever they are) are "stand-alone" groups, unique from other "kinds," with no intermediaries or transitions, extant or fossilised.

This is not what we see in the real world. Rather, transitions--or transitional features--abound.

41

Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 04-10-2011 WT Study (CREATION)

by blondie in

jw
friends

the physical heavens, the earth, and everything.

heavens themselves were made, and by the.

creative days three through six, god created.

Cadellin

I agree with much of the logic of the rest of it

Like, where they say "living things provide countless examples of complexity, symmetry and beauty that bespeak design of the highest level" (paragraph 11)? Those "living things" would then include the avaricious ichneumon wasp, the bot fly, and the spotted hyena with its predeliction for siblicide. A close examination of these "living things" bespeaks nature "red in tooth and claw" as Tennyson said and is fairly difficult to reconcile with the rosy, Disneyesque photographs at the bottom of the page. There we see the silly walruses, lovely peaches, oh-so-pretty child and butterfly (awwww!!) and even a smiling bear cub. How cute and adorable! Yes, the WT is very careful to use sentimental examples that align with the image of a benevolent creator, staying strictly away from those that make us flinch. And yet are those not part of the "countless examples" of design?

Or how about their logic when they assert "[DNA] is very stable and has served to maintain the distinction b/w basic kinds of creatures down through the ages. According to ...God's purpose, the earth's various organisms therefore continue to perform their functions in the complex web of life." (paragraph 12). Um, evidence, please??? First of all, DNA ISN"T "very stable," not by a long shot. The WT assiduously avoids even mentioning the dreaded "M" word (mutations) and not a whiff of the fact that a significant chunk of our own human genome is comprised of "pseudogenes," formerly functioning genetic machinery that has become so corrupted with mutations that they no longer are capable of expression. They're still there, riding along in the genome, but pretty much useless. A great example of that are the olfactory genes, about 40% of which are nonfunctioning due to mutations.

And that little sentence about various organisms "continu[ing] to perform their functions in the complex web of life?" Yeah, sure, up until they go EXTINCT!! How do the five great planetary extinctions fit into that nice little scenario? Or how about the irregularities in the earth's orbit that result in regular ice ages?

Oh, I could go on but I won't.

19

New to this forum and few thoughts.

by sweetrose74 in

well i have not been a part of the jws for over 12 years.

i was born and raised one.

indoctrincated from birth you can say.

Cadellin

Welcome, sweetrose! Yeah, it's hard, especially when you have kids. Sounds like you really have principles that you are living by for the sake of your son. Good for you.

77

On Human Evolution

by TD in

jw
friends

it's a subject that comes up fairly often here (understandably) and very strong opinions are expressed.

much of the discussion seems to be counterproductive.. i'd like to propose a different approach.

we all know what each other's conclusions are (or at least we should by now).

Cadellin

When I was working on my undergrad degree, I took a course in physical anthropology, the lab of which was osteology (nothing but old bones). I remember a similar question came up and the professor said that morphological differences b/w the australopithecines and H. habilis were insignificant. The reason for the taxonomic difference was the presence of stone tools at habilis sites and lack of them at australopithecine sites. Now it's not so cut-and-dried as it sounds, but it speaks to the point made by another poster that evolution isnt black and white but rather undulating shades of beige and grey. Which is exactly what you'd expect from a process that tinkers, gerry-rigs, makes-do, and sometimes transitions slowly (and sometimes leaps). Creation, by contrast, coming from a perfect God Designer, predicts that things SHOULD be cut-and-dry, easily demarcated, discrete entities or kinds and no relation whatsoever b/w--uh, "basic kinds," whatever that is.

One of the key differences between (modern) ape and human lineages, however, is bipedalism, indicated by the location of the foramen magnum, or the big hole in the skull where the spine engages. Apes' are located toward the back of the skull while hominids (the human line) are directly anterior. It's worth noting that all the skulls in TD's line-up have an anterior foramen magnum, meaning that they are all hominids, though not necessarily directly antecedent to modern humans.

Complicated? You bet. That's why the strawman arguments of creationists are so insidious, and why there's so much misunderstanding, which is capitalized on by creationists like the WT. I sat through the WT this past Sunday and honest to God, lost a half-dozen IQ points. I kept looking around, thinking to myself, "C'mon, folks, is there even a teaspons of critical thinking being applied anywhere in the room?"

73

New Believers, Studying.

by cupcakekourtney88 in

jw
friends

hey y'all!

my name is kourtney and i am new to this form and jehovah witnesses.

right now i am studying the book "what does the bible really teach".

Cadellin

Welcome, Cupcake: You sound like a good kid. Please ignore any rudeness you might have perceived and instead, spend some time reading some of the life stories of posters. They can be enlightening.

Either way, whatever you decide (or not), you are very welcome here! Please keep us posted as your study progresses.

65

Hi, new to this forum. Figured I'd let everyone know about my story before I got involved.

by JonathanH in

if you just want the juicy details where i leave, i'll make disclaimer where it begins, if you just want to know what happened with the elders and organization after i realized it wasn't true, i'll mark that seperately.

we didn't do jack shit in service, or in the congregation.

maybe this was how jehovah came about?

Cadellin

Jonathon: Wow, what a story. You are yet more evidence of the brain drain that the WT is experiencing.

Love your observation: I will do my damnedest to be the exemplary of the virtues they value, but do not understand

You are clearly a gifted writer and thinker. Like so many have already said, my heart goes out to both your wife for her emotional strain and your sister. It's really horrid how misogyny masquerades as "loving Biblical counsel."

Also, congrats for your intentions to pursue higher education. That's the other common denominator among so many of us who leave the Borg--we make up our lack of formal education as quickly as we can. I'm just finishing a M.A. and don't regret one minute.

Please, keep us posted!

43

I'm a Mess

by headisspinning in

jw
friends

i am an emotional mess.. yesterday, i was so firm.

today i feel like crying.

it was a lovely, sunny day here.

Cadellin

Headspinning, hope you are doing okay. You've been given some really good advice here, esp. by jgnat and others. Your emotional response is totally NORMAL for someone who is breaking ties with a high-control religion. Try and develop a measure of emotional distance from the idea of the "the Truth." When I was waking up, I had to tamp down my emotions and focus on the rationality of my discoveries. For me, abundant research into evolution, radiometric dating and related topics was helpful. As well, get yourself involved with non-JW people, even if it means volunteering an afternoon a week at a food bank or whatever. If you work f-t (sorry, I don't remember your story), then go out to lunch w/friends from work, or for a drink after work.

As far as guilt goes, when that starts welling up in me (and it will, for a while), I give myself a choice: I can go back to knocking on doors and preaching that the Bible is inerrant, that paradise will be here "soon," etc., knowing full well that it's not true. Or I can be honest and stand to look at myself in the mirror every day.

For me, it's an easy choice and gets easier with the passage of time. That's the other thng you need to allow yourself. Time is, indeed, a great healer.

116

Water Canopy? Huh?

by Mr. Falcon in

*** w80 11/15 p. 23 par.

4 jehovah of armies to the rescue!

the fact that today we do not have a vast water canopy suspended high up in space and all around our globe and thus blocking direct sunlight, moonlight and starlight is because jehovah saw what was going on down here upon his terrestrial footstool and took action.

Cadellin

Great thread. Yes, its mind boggling that the March 2011 WT has a reference to the water canopy. So that old canard is alive and well in JWland. What's really odd is that the Genesis account indicates that moon and stars were visible by Day 4, bright enough to serve as "luminaries" according to the NWT. So how could starlight penetrate a water canopy that held enough water to flood the earth? When it's getting ready to rain today, the cloud cover is pretty dense and you don't even see the sun, much less stars. So it makes no sense whatsoever.

Oh, wait--the Flood story is a redaction of earlier Ugaritic and Babylonian myths! Its the imposition of a rationalistic framework onto what is clearly myth that makes no sense!

75

Im new here

by POWER_OF_YOUTH in

jw
friends

Cadellin

Hey POY, welcome! This site is a great resource for informing yourself about "the truth," and guess what--we're not all as scary as they say. (Only some of us are, LOL) Joking aside, you're a young guy and time is on your side. Take your time, keep your grades up at school and plan to further your education doing something you care deeply about.