Posts by Cadellin

97

Elder father sent me an email about Feb 2012 WT - my resposne

by TheStumbler in

i'm not sure if any of you will remember but i posted on here six months ago about a correspondence i was having with my dad, an elder, about who would die in armageddon.

i was asking some tough questions about children being killed in armageddon and i could tell he uncomfortable with the answers he was giving.. i drafted an email in resposne to his email but in the end i decided not to send it in the interest of maintaining friendly relations.. .

last week, out of the blue, my dad sent an email link to the february 2012 watchtower article about armageddon and said it would answer some of my questions.. here is my response which is a critique of the feb 2012 wt article and some of the broader ethics concerning 'armageddon'.

Cadellin

I think your email to your father is a brilliant piece of logic, using the WT's own words--and not taken out of context either! (I hate when the WT claims that apostates twist words and take them out of context when the WT is the biggest culprit in the known universe for doing that.)

This business of God reading hearts and not merely saving JWs is how reasonable JWs try to get around the undeniable official teaching of the WT that only those marked on the forehead as per Ezekiel will be saved. The mark is baptism as a JW and not just that, but living up to your baptism. Many years ago, when I was still pioneering and uber-zealous, our CO said something from the platform that made me shudder. He had us read the prophecy in Ezekiel about the man with the secretary's inkhorn who went around marking those who where sighing and crying over the detestable things being done. What happened after that? The angels with "smashing instruments," ie big hammers, went around smashing in skulls of anyone w/o the mark. You see, the mark is on the forehead so it's really easy to see and the angels won't be mistaken.

Then he said that if we ever felt we were losing our sense of urgency, we should go stand outside an elementary school playground for a while and just watch all the happy little children playing. THen we were to imagine the angels coming down with big hammers and smashing all their little heads in.

I'm not kidding. That was part of his talk from the platform (probably mid 1990's). I remember feeling slightly ill at the time, thinking (but suppressing) that something had to be wrong...

21

Journal of Philosophical Psychology cites JWs as an example of a self-validating belief system

by slimboyfat in

a recent article in the journal of philosophical psychology titled: 'how convenient!

the epistemic rationale of self-validating belief systems' by maarten boudry says that one of the defense mechanisms of self-validating belief systems is "multiple endpoints and moving targets" and cites jws to illustrate the point.

here are the sections that discuss jws:.

Cadellin

Right, and I would add that they are one of the more extreme cases.

24

Independent verification of Mexico Vs. Malawi

by Knowsnothing in

i posted on manki's crisis of conscience thread the following, and decided it deserves a thread of it's own (giving it was completely ignored, lol).

i'll give you a head start, manky.. http://tearsofoberon.blogspot.com/2009/10/mexico-military-and-jwsthe-truth.html.

under the subheading 6.0 lies and exaggerations, he goes on to say this:.

Cadellin

Bucholz, thanks for the info! So, did very many Mexican brothers obtain a "fake" cartilla? How was this whole thing viewed by JWs there? To me, the bribery was one thing but the carrying the cartilla that said the "brother" had completed his military training seemed somehow worse. Or am I misunderstanding?

21

Journal of Philosophical Psychology cites JWs as an example of a self-validating belief system

by slimboyfat in

a recent article in the journal of philosophical psychology titled: 'how convenient!

the epistemic rationale of self-validating belief systems' by maarten boudry says that one of the defense mechanisms of self-validating belief systems is "multiple endpoints and moving targets" and cites jws to illustrate the point.

here are the sections that discuss jws:.

Cadellin

Great find, slimboyfat!

the belief system of Jehovah's Witnesses has made use of the defense mechanism of multiple endpoints and deflationary revisions

I would add that this defense mechanism wouldn't work as well as it does were it not for the highly authoritarian structure of JW's belief system, which is enforced and re-enforced over relatively minor matters, like recreation (see, for example, last week's WT study) so that JWs become conditioned to accept "deflationary revisions" in major matters. When a potential crisis of belief in the form of failed prophecy occurs, they default to submission (of independent thoughts) and exultation (of whatever the "slave" says) that has been so thoroughly ingrained in them. For example, ask any JW about the recent change in "generation" and invariably they will trot out the old saw, "the light gets brighter" as a reflexive deflection any "disconfirmation," handily supplied by the "slave." So while the rationale of multiple endpoints and deflationary revisions is certainly at work, it rests on that foundation of unquestioning obedience and practiced rhetoric already in place.

I think "self-validating" refers to the process by which beliefs develop resilience and persevere. Those beliefs, as the author explains, that are flexible enough to allow for revisions of the kind described, have a better chance of surviving and, by surviving, tend to strengthen themselves in the minds of the believers. A great example is the latest "overlapping generation" of 1914. When the FDS gave that explanation as a way of rationalizing the seeming failure of its earlier definitions (deflationary revisionism at work), JWs were primed to go along with it because of their overall conviction that the generation of the last days/1914 must be a reality in some sense (to paraphrase the article) AND because of their conditioning, and so the belief about the generation of 1914 is reinforced for JWs, albeit in its revised form.

24

Independent verification of Mexico Vs. Malawi

by Knowsnothing in

i posted on manki's crisis of conscience thread the following, and decided it deserves a thread of it's own (giving it was completely ignored, lol).

i'll give you a head start, manky.. http://tearsofoberon.blogspot.com/2009/10/mexico-military-and-jwsthe-truth.html.

under the subheading 6.0 lies and exaggerations, he goes on to say this:.

Cadellin

While I think Franz is pretty scrupulous in CoC, and I have no valid reason to doubt him, I have wondered the same as Knowsnothing--are there any Mexican witnesses or ex-witnesses that know first hand about the cartilla thing? What's the current status, as well?

322

WT Nov. 1, 2011 (public) - When Was Ancient Jerusalem Destroyed - Part 2

by AnnOMaly in

out now.. yes, yes, yessssss!

on p. 26-27 they talk about how the lunar positions on vat 4956 fit 588/7 bce!!!.

"clearly, much of the astronomical data in vat 4956 fits the year 588 b.c.e.

Cadellin

I don't have the article in front of me at the moment, but I thought the WT's objection to using planetary location (aside from the fact that it would blow their theory out of the water) is that the names used for the planets were open to multiple interpretations and so (supposedly) b/c the planets could not be positively identified, they would be elided.

Sounds incredibly fishy and, no surprise, there's no evidence provided for multiple readings on the planet names.

37

Outright Misrepresentations of Quotes and Citations in Watchtower Literature

by Londo111 in

the research of doug mason, annomaly, and others have been eye opening in regards to the society's recent articles on 607 bc.

what i find most disturbing is the misrepresentations of scholars, who are quoted in such a way to say one thing, when they meant something completely different.

it is one thing to teach a doctrine, and quite another to play fast and loose with the truth.

Cadellin

You also might want to check out this thread

The newish Origin of Life brochure is rife with logical fallacies and out-of-context quotes.

449

"Feeling sorry for yourself" about being hit by your husband is not Christian 2/15/12 WT Page 25 P 12

by yourmomma in

have anyone of you read, the absolutly jaw dropping paragraph in this article about a women who was hit by her husband?

its in page 25 of the 2/15/12 wt study edition (i read the dumbed down version).. .

if there was any question, that the watchtowers stance is for wives to simply take it when their husbands abuse them, this makes it crystal clear.. who the hell is scanning these things before they go to print?

Cadellin

In the past, whenever, I've asked my elder husband about the kind of advice given by elders to women whose husbands beat them, he says that they don't suggest the wives leave because then they (the elders) would be accountable for any struggles/hardships, etc. that those wives encounter after leaving.

Still, the absolute idiocy of that response makes my head reel. What about the accountability incurred by encouraging a wife to stay with an abuser? What about the accountability of that "soft spoken" idiot sister who told her study to be more loving and "Christian"? She bears accountability for the bruises and broken bones experienced by her study over the next 17 years.

This makes me sick. Yet, I know exactly how many, if not most, JWs will view this situation: its about faithfulness and perseverance as a WITNESS, not about safety as a WOMAN. The Witness aspect trumps every other avenue and always will.

66

Eurozone crisis- the jw's are crowing about it like mad!

by highdose in

jw
friends

over the past few weeks i've been told that the eurozone will go into melt down and that this will be the start of armargeddon because the goverments will then turn on religon to get their money instead.. i have been told that the greek pm almost rejecting the greek bailout plan would lead to armargeddon.

of course much to the jw's disapointment the greek pm resigned and the greeks did accept the bail out.

thus saving the greek banks from collapse and thus the rest of the european banks.. i have been told that italys debt will mean they will plunder the vatican for its wealth!

Cadellin

Sonny, nobody is saying everything is alright. One of the things that JWs are really good at is binarial thinking--if it's not "A," then it must be "B." If it's not black, then it must be white. It's much more realistic to see things--including supposed world events--as existing on a spectrum.

In your post, you mention a financial meltdown, climate change and lawlessness due to insurrections. At least, those seem to be the main issues of concern. You seem (as I interpret your post) to perceive these things as indicating a fulfillment of Bible prophecy indicating Armaggedon's imminence. However, how many of those things are predicted in the Bible? Does the Bible ANYWHERE prophecy about a global economic downturn? About global warming or environmental depletion? Jesus' prediction in the synoptic gospels says nothing about those things. Neither does the apocalyptic prophecy of the four horsemen.

And yes, you can turn to Ezek 7:19 regarding people throwing their gold and silver in the street. That scrip has nothing to do with a global financial downturn, but rather pointed to the futility of material protection when God acted against Israel. That prophecy was specifically aimed at the nation of Israel and nothing in it contemplates an end-times or global scenario.

JWs like to trot out Rev. 11:18 as somehow predicting the environmental problems we see today, relying on the phrase "bring to ruin those ruining the earth," as if "ruining the earth" had a literal exegesis. However, that exact phrase was used to describe the people of Noah's day who were "ruining the earth" with violence. Nothing in that verse assumes manmade environmental destruction.

Is everything perfectly fine on our planet? Of course not. Humanity is facing serious hurdles, the natures of which are utterly unprecedented to our species. Unprecedented, as in completely unfamiliar to Bible writers.

But please be aware that it is all too easy to get a distorted picture of world conditions from the media. The sad fact is that "If it bleeds, it leads," meaning that news outlets thrive on bad news. I recently was checking out a recent update on the UN website which discussed how meeting the Millennial goals was coming along. Of course, most of them are unmet. But--WOW--I couldn't believe the amazing progress that had been made in improving sanitation, clean water and fighting diseases like malaria. Mortality rates for children under five years have plummeted in virtually every third-world country. That's amazing. Moreover, when I was pioneering (way back in the late '80's/early '90s), we used the most current figures for how many people were hungry on the planet--about one-fourth of the population, around 1 billion. That's 1 billion too many, yes. But do you know what the figure is today? 1 billion--and the world's population has nearly doubled. About one person in seven doesn't get enough to eat. Yet twenty years ago, that number was one person in four. That's amazing.

My point is you need to examine this issue very carefully and not jump to conclusions.

66

Eurozone crisis- the jw's are crowing about it like mad!

by highdose in

jw
friends

over the past few weeks i've been told that the eurozone will go into melt down and that this will be the start of armargeddon because the goverments will then turn on religon to get their money instead.. i have been told that the greek pm almost rejecting the greek bailout plan would lead to armargeddon.

of course much to the jw's disapointment the greek pm resigned and the greeks did accept the bail out.

thus saving the greek banks from collapse and thus the rest of the european banks.. i have been told that italys debt will mean they will plunder the vatican for its wealth!

Cadellin

Alfaro: Welcome. It's good to have you here.

Think about this: When you assert that conditions are "worse than ever," you're implying a comparison. Worse than what? Worse than when? Worse than fifty years ago? One hundred years ago? Five hundred years ago? Moreover, the specific conditions that the Bible foretells as leading to Armaggedon are those that have traditionally plagued humanity: Disease, famine, warfare. And, yes, when those conditions occur simultaneously (as the Bible predicts) and with severity, they produce measurable results: primarily a sharp decrease in population. Demographers have studied historic episodes and found that these conditions do cause populations to drop dramatically.

Has this been the case since 1914? If, in fact, as you assert, conditions (meaning disease, famine and warfare) are "worse than ever," then there should be some measurable, quantifiable evidence of that. It's no good simply batting around numbers (like the WT does) and saying, "100 million people died in warfare in the 20th century." That's fine, but it doesn't really tell you anything, because we need to know what proportion of the population that represented. It's a big number, but there were many more people living during the 20th century than any other time in history. There were more people to kill, to put it plainly. And that very fact--that there were more people around to kill--tells us that the other two factors (disease and famine) were not having the same effect on population that they historically have. In other words, people weren't dying in the numbers/proportions that historically they used to die prior to the 20th century. Why not?

A huge turning point was the development of penicillin around the time of WWI. This meant that people might catch a bacterial infection, but they wouldn't die of it. Moreover, medical knowledge meant that mothers and infants weren't dying in childbirth. And better transportation, communication and agricultural methods meant that food could be transported across greater distances, meaning people weren't dying from famine they way they used to. NOTE: I'm not saying that nobody was dying of disease and famine. What I'm saying is that the historic proportions of people dying (compared to the total number of people alive globally) was much, much lower.

I've got to go, or I'd add more. What I suggest you do is some solid research on historic mortality rates. Cheers!