Posts by mindmelda

17

Pagan Decorations Allowed in Society's Buildings?

by compound complex in

in search of christian freedom, ray franz, pages 274, 275.. .

i recall that when the watch tower society purchased a former motion picture theatre in queens, new york, for use as an assembly hall, the theatre had an ancient egyptian motif throughout.

over the marquee, the front of the building had large tiles depicting various egyptian gods and goddesses, one even carrying the crux ansata.

mindmelda

Not suprised, given Russell was nuts about Egyptology and the pyramids. A very common thing in his day.

Amusing, since my JW relative once threw out a whole set of dishes because they had a UNICORN on them, which she considered a mythological, and therefore, pagan, creature.

I told her, *puts on my demon horns* "Oh, why'd you do that...don't you know unicorns are in the Bible?"Then I showed her in the King James where it mentions unicorns!

My kids have the whole set of Harry Potter books and love them. I have yet to have a demonic experience from having them in my house. I was told it was BAD to go see the movies, but went anyway, because hey, I've had the books for years. The books and movies had wizards in them, bad, bad bad.

But, when Lord of the Rings came out, our whole body of elders but one, all high fantasy geeks, lined up to go see the movies! But, don't they have WIZARDS in them?

Oh, hypocrisy, you are born of convenience!

*anyone remember the big paisley controversy? about whether it was "Christian" to wear paisley because of it's supposed origins? that was a hoot too!*

189

so they never claimed to be an inspired prophet?

by ninja in

*** si p. 9 all scripture is inspired of god and beneficial ***.

line of communication.

16 someone may ask, what has been the means of communication?

mindmelda

No one has ever become a JW unless they study with Witnesses and get their particular doctrine on scripture. As the song says, "You have to be carefully taught!"

When you have to almost literally forbid reading the Bible alone or in small groups without benefit of WTS literature, well, you're obviously not wanting the Bible to speak for itself. The idea that God doesn't deign to speak to individuals but can only speak through one group is not born out by the Bible itself.

The fear that apostasy potentially comes out of individuals reading the Bible in small groups could be taken to define their own origins as potentially apostate! Isn't that how Bible Students themselves began?

How many times in the Bible itself did God speak to individuals, including those of little faith or even non-believers? He used Moses, Abraham, Joseph, many prophets and John the Baptist. None of those people were organizations or represented any organization!

This was one of the things I found so outrageous and paranoid that I just couldn't be part of it anymore.

48

Redemption, Reductions

by Narkissos in

as i have told before, one turning point in my exit from the wt was a conversation with a close friend about the "ransom".. we were in the (french) bethel library, i don't remember what we were talking about until she said to me: "you know, i never understood why jesus had to die for us.

" this surprised me so much that the only reply i could offer consisted in reciting the wt theology which she, of course, knew as well as i did.

and as she kept smiling at that i began to understand what she meant by "i never understood".. this was the first in a series of conversations which led us very far from wt theology and started me reading the nt again from a completely different perspective.. this basic question ("why jesus had to die") is central to christianity and, when you actually read the texts, already produces dozens of (slightly to wildly) different "answers" in the nt itself, not to mention later theology.. however popular religion does not work with multiple or complex answers but with unique and simple ones -- the variety of which constitutes the complexity as they add to and combine with each other in "history," i.e.

mindmelda

I wanted to respond earlier, but I'm kind of handicapped by the post limits! I have many comments on various threads.

But, this discussion is fascinating and has given me a lot to digest. I always wanted to have discussions like this as an active Witness, but it never came up in the context of any meeting or study article, my questions on such matters always remained unanswered.

Narkissos, I like your thoughts about Paul. My own "knee jerk" reaction to his complex explanations are just that, a personal reaction to rhetoric, which I tend to find tedious, except of course, when it's MY rhetoric. *G*

But, Paul definitely has his place in Christian thought as you all demonstrate here.

I'm not sure that there is a single thought or that the idea of ransom or propitiation is even unique to Christianity. What IS unique is the the level to which the metaphor is raised by Paul here. An idea that in most belief systems, including Judaism, was played out quite literally is embodied in one being for all time.

Pauls thought that the law is the tutor or teacher that leads to Christ comes to mind here. But, being kind of a Universalist at heart, it seems to me that certain things in many faiths seem to "lead to Christ" as the ultimate and most evolved metaphor for human salvation and reconciliation with God, or the Divine.

24

Word on the street is that Facebook is going to be banned...

by middleman in

jw
friends

...at the next assembly.

i've heard from various sorces that the gb are planning on making it off limits, like they have already done for myspace.

has anyone else heard this?

mindmelda

Doesn't anyone ask why so many people seem to need a place to vent their feelings about the WTS?

If everything were just ducky, would they be having this problem? Removing the place where people can express their true feelings is not going t make the problems go away!

48

Redemption, Reductions

by Narkissos in

as i have told before, one turning point in my exit from the wt was a conversation with a close friend about the "ransom".. we were in the (french) bethel library, i don't remember what we were talking about until she said to me: "you know, i never understood why jesus had to die for us.

" this surprised me so much that the only reply i could offer consisted in reciting the wt theology which she, of course, knew as well as i did.

and as she kept smiling at that i began to understand what she meant by "i never understood".. this was the first in a series of conversations which led us very far from wt theology and started me reading the nt again from a completely different perspective.. this basic question ("why jesus had to die") is central to christianity and, when you actually read the texts, already produces dozens of (slightly to wildly) different "answers" in the nt itself, not to mention later theology.. however popular religion does not work with multiple or complex answers but with unique and simple ones -- the variety of which constitutes the complexity as they add to and combine with each other in "history," i.e.

mindmelda

Yes, it was when I began to study religions comparatively that a lot of these things stood out to me. Also as a writer, I understand that I'm trying to convey an idea with a metaphor, not a literal fact. Jesus taught primarily by metaphor, the parable is a metaphorical tale to teach a spiritual lesson. Trying to be overly literal with these stories will cause contradiction, no doubt, as they' re not factual stories. I feel the same about the non historical parts of the Old Testament.

The Bible is written largely in metaphorical language, in languages that are far more designed to express metaphor than English is. Learning that helped me see that trying to literally interpret much of it is a waste of time.

I was ruined on most WTS teachings for good after reading Joseph Campbell's "The Power of Myth" many years ago. It pointed out so clearly the metaphors that Judaism and Christianity use are not so different than the ones all faiths use. It is spiritual language and must be seen that way. Trying to parse scripture like a grammar exercise or a tax form is to deny it's power. The metaphorical power of blood, salvation and sacrifice are quite common to many various faiths.

Paul is quite legalistic in his interpretations, like any good ex rabbi would probably be. I often wonder if he was actually representative of the mainstream of Christain thought at the time, or was simply such a prolific writer that his letters became among the most widely read of the time?

I find Paul among the most unappealing of Biblical writers, to be honest, except for a few passages. The WTS and some other faiths rely too heavily on his works while ignoring some others for doctrine for my taste.

69

Do you believe in MIRACLES?

by nicolaou in

i'll be honest and admit that i did.

the 'moses' miracles, solar miracles, jesus miracles - everything.

so no belief bashing from me on this one, i promise.. all the same, how do you reconcile belief in miracles with that little voice in your head that says "hmmmmm?

mindmelda

"As always, what we believe in usually reveals more about us then the dogma we espouse... In my opinion anyway..."

You speak the truth there, my friend. *G*

19

New to the Forum

by creativhoney in

hi i have been on a few days - im not sure how it all works but heres my history - maybe people can relate to it... well basically when i was nine years old my brother died from an epileptic fit.

there were four of us, the eldest who died, another brother, me and my younger sister.

shortly after the witnesses came knocking on my mums door.

mindmelda

I haven't raised my kids in the WTS teachings either. They turned out to be really nice people without it, imagine that!

I was told my kids would be hookerr or drug addicts or something if I didn't cram them full of "The Truth" but somehow they've managed to be lovely decent kids.

I actually have less problems with them than most JWs have with their kids, I've noticed.

When my husband and I were first married, we moved in with my parents for a while and it was HELL! My mother is so critical, and she just could not keep from trying to run our lives. She tried to take over raising my oldest. I forbade hitting her and we fought about that all the time.

Being a Witness never taught her much about treating anyone with kindness, humility or love. I think that's pretty sad. My dad was a kind person BEFORE he was a Witness, so he hasn't changed much either...thankfully.

Later, I discovered my mother was an abused child, beaten for every infraction, choked, slapped and locked in dark cupboards, and never allowed to question parental authority, which was absolute. I think she was attracted to JWs because she's attracted to abusive authority in some strange way. She was the first one in our family to get converted and dragged the rest of us along with her.

Anyway welcome to the boards!

10

When would an "I'm sorry" help?

by The Berean in

human interaction today too often seems to feature either playing the role of "offender" or "offended.

"most parties involved in an altercation plead "not guilty" regardless of the evidence.. but are there times when a simple unconditional "i'm sorry" might prevent a harmless spark from becoming a raging inferno?.

i pesonally have offended people hundreds of times during my life and have been offended to the same extent.

mindmelda

Because "I'm sorry" would be viewed as an admission of guilt? I don't think the WTBS ever believes they're wrong, they call it something else. They "tack" back and forth on doctrine, they "get new light" or "make adjustments" but they're never just flat out wrong about something.

Yes, I remember being a real arrogant asshat with people and thinking I could defend anything I believed because everyone else was so stupid and didn't have "The Truth".

It took me a long time that other people have wisdom to offer too.

69

Do you believe in MIRACLES?

by nicolaou in

i'll be honest and admit that i did.

the 'moses' miracles, solar miracles, jesus miracles - everything.

so no belief bashing from me on this one, i promise.. all the same, how do you reconcile belief in miracles with that little voice in your head that says "hmmmmm?

mindmelda

I've never seen one, to be honest. I can't explain everything that happens, but that just makes me a fairly normal human being who can't explain some things.

48

Redemption, Reductions

by Narkissos in

as i have told before, one turning point in my exit from the wt was a conversation with a close friend about the "ransom".. we were in the (french) bethel library, i don't remember what we were talking about until she said to me: "you know, i never understood why jesus had to die for us.

" this surprised me so much that the only reply i could offer consisted in reciting the wt theology which she, of course, knew as well as i did.

and as she kept smiling at that i began to understand what she meant by "i never understood".. this was the first in a series of conversations which led us very far from wt theology and started me reading the nt again from a completely different perspective.. this basic question ("why jesus had to die") is central to christianity and, when you actually read the texts, already produces dozens of (slightly to wildly) different "answers" in the nt itself, not to mention later theology.. however popular religion does not work with multiple or complex answers but with unique and simple ones -- the variety of which constitutes the complexity as they add to and combine with each other in "history," i.e.

mindmelda

Interesting discussion. Ransom "scale balancing" was one of the many WTS doctrines I struggled with, too. It seemed simplistic and was.

I also detected long that Paul's teachings on a few things seem to not be what was discussed by Christ himself, or he covers ideas not even addressed by Christ, and had always wondered why. It's often discussed in scholarly literature on the Bible, this Pauline split in dogma, but you'll never hear anything that concise discussed by the WTS. I went to sources on the internet that discussed Paulist teachings and found answers there, though.

Their doctrines are quite elementary and I always wondered why some scriptures were just never really discussed on a topic. It seems it's because they don't make a good fit with their concepts.

The ransom is a complex idea, and since I always chose a more metaphorical interpretation of the scriptures (its the only way I could make some things work in my head), I never could understand where this "scales" idea came into it. How could Christ with his heavenly origin be the equal of Adam, whose origins were earthly? That's MORE than a compensatory ransom, so the idea of "balanced scales" (which isn't even found in the Bible, is it?) is a human convention.

I once spoke to a progressive Baptist minister who was a neighbor of mine many years ago and was surprised to learn his take on the ransom was identical to the JWs in most ways. They have no unique teaching on that, but they make it seem as though it's unique to them. Hardly the case.

Sort of echoes the above experience with the Evangelicals...no real difference.