Posts by mindmelda

17

What does Romans 10:9,10 mean to a JW?

by Colton in

romans 10:9,10.

"...if you confess with your mouth jesus as lord, and believe in your heart that god raised jesus from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.".

in my ten years as a jw, there was absolutely no emphases to the importance of this scripture.

mindmelda

They use it to justify public evangelizing. Of course, the parts about personally confessing belief in Jesus resurrection for personal salvation are sort of underplayed.

The WTS always underplays personal salvation, because they believe people are only saved in groups, not individually. YOu only have a personal relationship with God through them, Christ is apparently not enough of a mediator without an assist from them.

blah blah blah

In the older writings, Jesus was mentioned a LOT more often, I've noticed, but he's been phased out so much that I'm surprised he even gets second billing anymore.

How can you be "Christian" and exclude Christ so much? Puzzling, ain't it? *G*

If personal experience means anything at all, I get more peace, love and joy praying to Christ as my Lord and Savior than I ever did praying to Jehovah through Christ as a JW. *G*

A recent development I thought I'd try. It's working out pretty well. *G*

Me, the spiritual seeker/experimenter! I'll try anything once, twice if I like it!

42

Pics and Bios of Current Governing Body

by purplesofa in

as i was reading through the bios, every one of the members is married, which i did not know.. and only three where born before 1935.. .

http://walkerimages.com/gov/gb2008.html.

governing body of jehovah's witnesses january 2009. .

mindmelda

Ah, no wonder they revised that cut off date for the majority of spirit annointed at 1935! Most of these guys weren't a glint in their daddy's eyes in 1935. And that generation stuff, well the ship on that one sailed a LONG TIME AGO!

My parents are 71 and were born in 1938. Do the math! There aren't that many people who make the Willard Scott 100 years old birthday club!

They'd be the Gibbering Body if all of them were old enough to partake before 1935!

Yeah, that was mean. I don't care. LOL

50

The Fundamentals of God, Liberal Sensitivities and the Judgment of Sin

by Perry in

what are the fundamentals of god?.

the word fundamental is used to imply the idea of "basic understanding" by those who identify with the term "fundamental christian" as a way of describing certain aspects of their approach to god.

this of course is the polar opposite of jehovah's witnesses who are theologically liberal.

mindmelda

I never viewed the Witnesses as fundamentalists, because in part, that entails seeking literal political expression for one's religious beliefs.

But, perhaps the only way they ARE liberal in doctrine is in that they believe "truth" is a gradual thing, and flexible.

The only problem is, the exposure of doctrinal truth is carefully limited to the elite, the rank and file have no participation in this discovery, for that would be chaotic and they are proponents of order. Very strict order, which is quite strictly enforced, albeit through subtle means. In their function, they are quite authoritarian.

I don't confuse authoritarianism with conservatism, they're quite separate ideas, although they often combine in certain religious and political entities. Liberalism isn't quite the opposite of conservatism, but it often used as it's opposite. One can be socially liberal, but fiscally conservative, or one can socially or morally conservative and yet, not fiscally conservative at all! I think the recent Bush administration was a good example of the latter, as many confused his moral conservatism with financial, which was by no means evident. He presided over the most financially extravagant government policies in recent political history!

But, back to the topic of how authoritarian the WTS demonstrates itself to be.

The WTS claims to have no priesthood, which makes it seem quite "grassroots", with no clergy class, which they claim to despise, but according to the definition of a priesthood, the GB functions quite well as one, as a priesthood is there to interpret and enforce the will of God for the masses, who are deemed incapable of understanding the complexity of theology and must have it predigested and dispensed to them in a form they, the "uninspired" can grasp. Spiritual pablum for the masses, raw meat for the elite!

Not only do the "other sheep" function very well as a laity class, they do so without being aware that they are, but believe they are "ministers". Quite a trick!

21

If stillbirths aren't resurrected, why is abortion banned?

by rebel8 in

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/72863/1/the-day-a-brother-died-in-my-hall-the-unbelievable-events-that-followed#1165197.

in that thread, it was mentioned that miscarried babies don't have the hope of being resurrected.

is this true?.

mindmelda

Thank you, Baba.

Individually, the Witnesses were quite kind to me at the time and since about it. Doctrinally, though, this waffling always was offensive.

I like to think most of the "rank and file" are compassionate enough that this sort of doctrinal nitpicking who God favors the most and who he doesn't based on nothing much glides right past them.

I never paid attention to things like this. I figured it was someone who had too much time on their hands, like these people who make a whole movie with Peeps and post it on the internet. Except not nearly as entertaining and a whole lot more harmful!

Intellectual games for the dispassionate elite to play, that's all it is. Since none of them are women, they probably never had to confront the reality of this situation, so what did it matter to them?

Did I mention that I find the WTS extremely misogynistic on most issues? *G*

21

If stillbirths aren't resurrected, why is abortion banned?

by rebel8 in

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/72863/1/the-day-a-brother-died-in-my-hall-the-unbelievable-events-that-followed#1165197.

in that thread, it was mentioned that miscarried babies don't have the hope of being resurrected.

is this true?.

mindmelda

I had a child, full term who was technically "still born" because she died of oxygen deprivation before birth.

I got so sick of this being bandied back and forth. Ugh. How not comforting to the bereaved. Why all the limping about on two different opinions?

She was "breathing" through me before she was born, and she was full term, what's to "reason" about? She could have lived on her own except that she was asphyxiated by an umbilical cord accident. It's equivalent to a person who drowns while diving because their oxygen tank apparatus fails.

Such gulping down of camels and straining out of gnats here.

42

Pics and Bios of Current Governing Body

by purplesofa in

as i was reading through the bios, every one of the members is married, which i did not know.. and only three where born before 1935.. .

http://walkerimages.com/gov/gb2008.html.

governing body of jehovah's witnesses january 2009. .

mindmelda

The idea that God needs a corporation is one of the sillier things about JW doctrine.

As if incorporation, a modern human legalisitic concept, is necessary to worship God. It'd make me giggle if it wasn't so sad.

22

New member - My story

by allelsefails in

i've been reading for a little while, but really "studying" for a couple of years.

figure i could share my story and listen to what you guys have to say.

i was "born" into jws in 1976. my mother was baptized in 1975.. ouch.

mindmelda

If I had nuts, they'd be hurting too. LOL

My husband's mother had such a similar story in some ways! She married a Witness, (wasn't one at the time) got baptized herself back in '58 mainly to please him and because she was pregnant with my husband and was scared silly by a sister that her child wouldn't survive Armageddon unless she got dunked.

Well Armageddon didn't come and her Witness husband turned out to be a drunk, abusive and a womanizer. He cheated on her so much, she's not sure her kids are hers! (Old joke, sorry!)

Never was disfellowshipped for any of that, his parents were bastions of the congregation. He finally DID get DF'd years later for guess what? SMOKING! yep, his smoking was what they found offensive, not his beating his pregnant wife to a pulp, or drinking himself blind or picking up women in bars.

Anyway, naturally, she ended up pretty disillusioned with the whole thing, especially after she left the bum and the brothers would give her NO HELP at all because she was a bad wife who left the cheating scumbag husband to save her life and her kid's lives.

She was literally starving, no car, living with her mother and they told her to go back to her husband, and told her if she wanted to keep going to meetings, get a bus ticket, she wasn't welcome to ride with any of the other Witnesses. The only problem was, he couldn't wait to divorce her and move in with the airline attendent he'd knocked up. Well, that was enough for her. ENOUGH ABUSE...from all of them. She is kind to Witnesses she knows and to family members, but hasn't been active since. Never DF'd, just faded away, as so many of us do.

But, yeah, when you start reading the Bible without "The Borg" (WTS) looking over your shoulder, it's amazing how differently it comes across.

I'm also left not sure if religion is even a good thing or not, but I'm sure spirituality is. Hang in there. You've got plenty of company here.

42

Your children are worthless. Get rid of them.

by easyreader1970 in

last night the co came to visit.

he gave a talk that centered around a christian's ability to function well within the organization.

there are many christians who are having problems in their personal lives and this can be traced to one thing.

mindmelda

What a sister (PO's wife) told me who came to "encourage" me.

She told me my 19 year old daughter, who has a chronic health condition btw, was a drag on me spiritually. I should have thrown her out in spite of the fact that she's a thoughtful, mannerly and self controlled person. She's an artist, helpful to me around the house, and works hard. She just doesn't believe WTS bull crap and is quite straight forward about it.

Her son was expelled from school for breaking the Zero tolerance rule (took a pocket knife to school and vandalized school property with it, namely he and another boy went up in the service crawlway and cut a hole in the ceiling tiles of the girls locker room to peek at them, and yeah, it was covered up for him) but my daughter was "evil".

Yeah, well, go die in a fire or something. Going to mind numbing meetings to hear over and over again how my kids were doomed because they don't believe things I couldn't force down their throats was my number one reason for never going again.

Yeah I get it, they're doomed, I'm doomed for loving my kids. You only mention it constantly.

48

Redemption, Reductions

by Narkissos in

as i have told before, one turning point in my exit from the wt was a conversation with a close friend about the "ransom".. we were in the (french) bethel library, i don't remember what we were talking about until she said to me: "you know, i never understood why jesus had to die for us.

" this surprised me so much that the only reply i could offer consisted in reciting the wt theology which she, of course, knew as well as i did.

and as she kept smiling at that i began to understand what she meant by "i never understood".. this was the first in a series of conversations which led us very far from wt theology and started me reading the nt again from a completely different perspective.. this basic question ("why jesus had to die") is central to christianity and, when you actually read the texts, already produces dozens of (slightly to wildly) different "answers" in the nt itself, not to mention later theology.. however popular religion does not work with multiple or complex answers but with unique and simple ones -- the variety of which constitutes the complexity as they add to and combine with each other in "history," i.e.

mindmelda

I agree...nothing about Christian teaching derives from a single source or thought.

I'm Jungian in that I believe that all human thought develops naturally into becoming more than the sum of it's parts. Religion, faith, spirituality is one of the best examples of that.

I've read a little about the Hellenistic influences in Judaism, and of course, also in Christianity. Do you find Paul more Hellenistic than other NT writers?

I heard an interesting thought the other day that the allegory that Paul uses to the Galatians about Hagar and Sarah does not compare Jewish law to Christian faith, but rather, various avenues of thought within early Christian belief itself, that some of it was more bound to Judaism than others. Some of the accounts in Acts and Pauls own counsel to various congregations seem to bear that out also. The argument for the so called cohesiveness and purity of first century or "primitive" Christianity is challenged by that idea, and of course, that is what the WTS claims to be re-creating with their own beliefs, the purity of first century Christianity. (hah!)

But, if that never existed in the first place, if there were always various but converging (at least to some extent) ideas about Christ, resurrection, ransom and other doctrines, then they are pursuing a fallacy, are they not?

15

My undercover saga - Part 1

by BonaFide in

jw
friends

actually, this is part 8 or 9, i can't remember, but i thought i would number them from now on.. i am an active witness, and i want to help my friends and family.

i have had some success in trying to get them to reason, because i always state at the outset, and at the end of the conversation, that i support the faithful slave and gb no matter what.. so since i have a big vehicle, some of the older ones asked me to take them to special assembly day this past weekend.

i had already been, and i told you all about it, but i agreed.

mindmelda

I think I love you!

I tried this sort of thing for years, and it did me more good than anyone. I did get one particularly annoying elder's wife to quit preaching at me constantly, though.

The last time I went out in FS, I was with a Mexican sister who I dearly loved. She's been through a lot, including living with an alcoholic abusive husband for years, who thankfully, finally is sober and non violent.

But, there were two really "Bertha Than You" sisters with us, both have elder husbands who are well off, and they were dressed to the nines, thin and tanned.

We were in the Mexican sister's car and she and I became the target of the other two sister's catty comments on everything from our weight to our clothes, and then about how we could fix all that about ourselves and be wonderful and perfect like they were.

The sister whose car were were in started to get visibly upset, then to cry, and she had to pull over. I lit into Bitch and Witch and told them off. It was the most unspiritual, unkind and just plain old IGNORANT experience ever.

I'd love to say it was isolated, but this happened to me dozens of times of the years, sisters turning car groups into catty picking sessions.

It could be about anything from how you were raising your kids to your clothes or your housekeeping, but it was almost ALWAYS initiated by pioneers or elder's wives.

I got to where the very idea of FS was enough to give me a panic attack. I quit going.Now, I'm a very extroverted person who has no trouble talking to ANYONE. I've done substitute teaching and a little stage acting. I have no stage fright. It wasn't the people in the field that I was afraid of, it was my fellow JWs and their criticism!

I finally got my nerve up to go out a few years later, showed up to the appointed place for FS, and was told TO GO HOME AS I DID NOT make prior arrangements with the pioneers or anyone else going out that morning and they could not put me in a car group. So, I went home.

No brothers there, just the elderettes.

That was 8 years ago...I only went out once after that, and it was to deliver a few tracts with a sister. I did it an hour and had to go home. I couldn't stomach it anymore.