If you look at this with worldly eyes, why would people organize something involving bread and wine, and then not eat it? "You're unworthy" doesn't cut it. "Unworthy" of what? Eating?
Posts by dgp
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10JW story told to me from our IT guy
by reneeisorym inour it guy at work is also a pastor of his church.
he told me today that many years ago he went to a memorial.
when they passed the wine and bread he noticed that no one was taking any and thought it was weird.
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How many JWs actually died and were imprisoned in Hitlers rein?
by aquagirl inim having a discussion w.a fader.he is parroting the 10k killed.wasnt it actually 2k imprisoned,and less than 200 killed?how can i get these facts?.
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dgp
My understanding is that James Penton has a Ph. D. in History. He grew up a Jehovah' witness, and I understand he was very much esteemed as an apologist of the Organization. My understanding is also that he was disfellowshipped, along with many people from his congregation in Lethbridge, Alberta. He also wrote the book "Apocalypse Delayed: The Story of Jehovah's Witnesses", which some people regard as the best scholarly work on the Watchtower.
My understanding is also that Hitler did not usually kill on the basis of religion. One would say that maybe many atheists were killed by him or his army, even if not on a concentration camp, since Russia had the largest number of casualties in World War II: 20 million, if we believe Russian counts.
No one mentions gypsies, and they were persecuted as well. This file describes what happened to gypsies:
According to what is written here (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/gypsies.html)
It is extremely difficult to locate the sorts of sources about Gypsies in the Holocaust of the type widely available about Jewish victims of the Nazi terror. This may reflect difference between an extremely literate culture and a largely illiterate one. It is known that perhaps 250,000 Gypsies were killed, and that proportionately they suffered losses greater than any other group of victims except Jews. The accounts here were collected, and made available on the net, from various sources.
"Gypsies," or the "Roma" as they prefer to be called, are an ethnic group which originated in India (their language-Romany-is directly descended from Sanskrit) which for unknown reasons took to a wandering lifestyle in the late middle ages. Eventually they reached Europe and became part of the ethnic mix of many countries, contributing not a little in areas such a music and the arts.
Because they were strangers to many of the people they moved among, strong prejudices grew up, and indeed continue to this day. Although they were indisputably "Aryan" according to the Nazi racial typology, they were pursued relentlessly.
Now, this should not be construed as denying that many Jehovah's witnesses did die in concentration camps, and they did die because of their religion. We should also consider that there were not as many JW's as there were gypsies or Jews. Or Russians.
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"You will be objects of hatred "a reasonable understanding
by luap inindeed thats just what witnesses are.
everyone hates them.
is there any other group in "christendom "that are hated as much as these.?
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dgp
Luap, I think that the number of worldlies who really know what the Watchtower is like can be counted with the fingers of one hand. And I wouldn't say people hate them. People are busy, or relaxing when they knock on the door, and everybody knows they leave after they sell you a magazine. The magazine itself seems entertaining sometimes, kind of unctuous, but you know it's just not true, so down it goes to the garbage bin.
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Is my marriage worth saving?
by sacdfan inlong story - will make it short - i was a jw for 4 years.
hy husband took to it straigt away and has been a jw for 20 years - we were both converted by one of his workmates.
our 4 kids were all baptised jws and thankfully 3 escaped (2 disfellowshipped, one fading) - so my eldest son is still in with his dad.
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dgp
I beg to disagree with Qcmbr. Strangers who have no investment in a situation can often see much better than those involved, simply because they have no feelings "invested" in that situation.
Someone said the husband is a lodger. I would say he is a free-loader. Some nerve: He lives a separate life from sadcfan, an evil fader, but has no problem eating the bread she wins. He has the time to continue to climb within the Organization only because the evil fader keeps him. But, hey, it is Jehovah's wish that you be theocratic.
I'm afraid that sacdfan will stay in the relationship for the sake of I don't know what, while Theocratic will act behind her back. Has anyone ever about that kind of behavior inside the Watchtower? Yes?
If there are kids, then sadcfan may have a reason to live. You know, some kids resent the fact that their parents stay together "for the kids". They feel responsible, one would say guilty, of keeping an unbreathable atmosphere at home. Then they move on to complain that their parents stayed together for their own sake but conveniently put the burden on them.
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How many JWs actually died and were imprisoned in Hitlers rein?
by aquagirl inim having a discussion w.a fader.he is parroting the 10k killed.wasnt it actually 2k imprisoned,and less than 200 killed?how can i get these facts?.
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dgp
James Penton has done some research into this:
Jehovah's Witnesses and the Third Reich: Sectarian Politics under Persecution
This is the book description:
Since the end of World War II, leaders of the Jehovah's Witness movement in both Germany and elsewhere have steadfastly argued that Witnesses were united in their opposition to Nazism and did not collude with the Third Reich. Documents have been uncovered, however, that prove otherwise. Using materials from Witness archives, the U.S. State Department, Nazi files, and other sources, M. James Penton demonstrates that while many ordinary German Witnesses were brave in their opposition to Nazism, their leaders were quite prepared to support the Hitler government.
Penton begins his study with a close reading of the "Declaration of Facts" released by the Witnesses at a Berlin convention in June 1933. Witness leaders have called the document a protest against Nazi persecution, however closer examination shows it contained bitter attacks on Great Britain and the United States ? jointly referred to as "the greatest and most oppressive empire on earth" ? the League of Nations, big business, and above all, Jews, who are referred to as "the representatives of Satan the Devil."
It was later, in 1933 ? when the Nazis would not accept Witness blandishments ? that leader J.F. Rutherford called on Witnesses to seek martyrdom by carrying on a campaign of passive resistance. Many ultimately died in prisons and concentration camps, and postwar Witness leaders have attempted to use this fact to assert that Jehovah's Witnesses stood consistently against Nazism.
Drawing on his own Witness background and years of research on Witness history, Penton separates fact from fiction during this dark period.
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Read a story of child neglect and abuse among JWs in S. Africa that was sent to me.
by AndersonsInfo ini regard the information below as true until proven false because of corresponding with a young man in s. africa for a few years whose story i posted on my website: http://www.watchtowerdocuments.com/stories/caleb.html, "freedom from an unsafe haven, by caleb.
" although some of the accounts of abuse of children in s. africa in the story below are older, calab wrote me details of abusive treatment meted out to young people in his area that he chose not to put in his story for fear he could be identified.
calab in now in university in another part of africa and very happy after breaking the chains that engulfed his mind.. barbara.
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dgp
My two cents: On a website run by Spanish-speaking, evidence was presented that witnesses have to work as "volunteers" in construction projects, make a contribution to a general fund meant to indemnify WORLDLY third parties in case the construction resulted in damages or injuries, but, surprisingly, every witness was told to take their own measures regarding an accident or damages while working. If I am not mistaken, this was in Chile, not the most brutal or corrupt country in the world.
And, in general, these are the same kind of horrors we keep hearing regarding the Watchtower. Perhaps an detail here or there may not be true, but we know that the picture presented here is real. I surmise that some of you guys know it from experience.
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Loss of the Mashco Piro one of the last Stone Age Tribes
by designs inisolated in the jungles of peru the mashco piro tribe may be near the end of its isolated existence.
first loggers are moving in to their lands and now oil gas and mining operations will end 1000's of years of existence and way of life..
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dgp
Lisa Bobeesa:
Well you would have to ask them to see how they felt about losing their hand-made canoes and their ability to make them.
Did they? Or did they no longer know any other way? One would have to ask them.
This is not the right way to see the matter.
When these Aleutians were offered the boats with outboard engines, they were still able to make their own canoes. They chose boats instead. One would assume they preferred boats, and saw no point in keeping the canoes. Maybe as a relic of times past, but not as a practical way to do for a living.
I wish Cousteau had asked THEM that question, whether they regretted the loss of the canoes, before he aired the show. That is exactly my point. He was regretting the loss of a skill and a way of fishing; but those who had engaged in that way of fishing for much longer than Cousteau had been alive were not regretting it. Oh, how sorry he was for them; only he didn't have to do for a living that way. He would go away in his own modern boat. Now, his ancestors made the mistake of not living in the Stone Age thousands of years ago, so he was able, one could even suspect "allowed" to have that. Not the Aleutians.
Your culture values learning certain other languages and cultures, so you are just following your own cultural norms.
It would be interesting for you to know -and I am not lying- that there are still some people in my world who say you sort of pollute yourself by learning the language of the Barbarians. Yep, you've sort of given up on your own values. Fortunately for us so-called traitors, the world has proved these "purists" wrong. Even they are learning English. It is very useful to talk, say, to Ahmadinejad or the Chinese.
I'm not kidding you: When I was a teen-ager, there were many people who would NOT study English, but would take other languages instead, because English was the language of the empire. I'm happy to say that this gave me a "hell" of an advantage. At the very least, they had to recognize they had been utter fools, but this they did when they had to study the language of the barbarians later in life, when they were not able to master it so well. These are "the purists", those who would like us not to become "contaminated" with foreign vices.
I would like to make a comment here as well. In this post, as in many others, I find myself in a very different situation that most people on this forum. This is, I believe, a reflection of where I stand in life with respect to many people on this forum. In here, I don't speak seeing myself from the point of view many of you guys see yourselves. I think as if I were the Indian.
The wider point I am trying to make is that some people, probably full of good intentions, would like to "preserve" this wonderful culture, and therefore DENY them the possibility of doing away with things and habits that they choose to drop. These people would suggest that this tribe be kept on a freezer, as perennial children who would not be allowed to decide what they want to do with their own lives, which should come first than their culture. I am afraid that some scientist or "social scientist", some revolutionary, will wield his or her prestige to say, "Let's keep them that way", only so he or she can have subjects for a study, or "to prove their point". That is the kind of good intentions that pave the road to hell. "You're wonderfully pure and pristine; YOU HAVE TO STAY THAT WAY, whether you want it or not.
I remember one time when a group of foreign people went to a certain country (I'm not telling you which one) and found themselves happy to "wade" a river. Their word, not mine, and it was said in English. It made for a wonderful adventure to them. The children of that town "wade" that river every day. Well, not every day; some times the river is so full of water that it is dangerous to cross and they have to stay on their respective sides. They don't find any adventure in crossing the river. It is a nuisance. They have to get wet every time. Wouldn't it be great if they had a bridge? Points of view, eh?
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Loss of the Mashco Piro one of the last Stone Age Tribes
by designs inisolated in the jungles of peru the mashco piro tribe may be near the end of its isolated existence.
first loggers are moving in to their lands and now oil gas and mining operations will end 1000's of years of existence and way of life..
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dgp
This reminds me of a TV show featuring the late Jacques Cousteau. He regretted the fact that some of the natives of the Aleutian Islands were no longer using canoes, but boats with outboard engines. He said that part of that culture died, because people no longer knew how to build canoes and use them. Agreed. The one question that I asked myself at the time, and one that Cousteau never asked, was what the Aleutians thought about replacing canoes with boats. They obviously felt fishing was a lot easier.
Mexican author Rosario Castellanos wrote a book called "Balún Canán", which means "Nine Stars" in one of the indigenous languages. In that book, her Indian characters fight for their right to learn Spanish. The masters used to forbid them to speak "Castille" because that way the Indians had to remain ignorant, and therefore would never be able to overcome their exploitation. These people fought for their right to speak Spanish. Were they wrong?
Some people here have said that original cultures fight to stay alive. I would qualify that. It is people who fight to stay alive and be their own selves. If they should want to abandon some customs, why should anyone tell them otherwise?
English is a foreign language to me. I'm the result of many mixtures, and, therefore, am not a member of any "original" people. My culture is Spanish. No one in the Spanish world can claim to be anything but mixed blood. Should I not have learned English, which has made me someone else? English has put me in touch with ideas and people that are certainly not those of my own culture. I feel I have learned a lot; I feel I have been empowered and, to an extent, liberated. Is that wrong? Why would anyone want something different for the Mashco Piro? While no one should tell them how they should live, and no one should claim ownership over their own land, I have a problem with keeping them isolated and "pure" against their will.
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Loss of the Mashco Piro one of the last Stone Age Tribes
by designs inisolated in the jungles of peru the mashco piro tribe may be near the end of its isolated existence.
first loggers are moving in to their lands and now oil gas and mining operations will end 1000's of years of existence and way of life..
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dgp
Maybe these people were living in total isolation, or not. I think that is irrelevant. The rest of the world should try to stay away from them in the sense that we could give them diseases they cannot fight. Their culture deserves respect, yes, but their lives are the primary concern here. However, why should we get to decide whether they should live as they have until now? Should one of them want to travel the world, marry someone from outside, whatever, who are we to tell them? If they, out of their own free will, were to decide to abandon their old ways, should we have a say in that matter?
I think the idea of the zoo comes to mind when we, in the outside, decide that we want to keep someone just as they have been until now.
Say they believe that the world is ruled by demons. Should we tell them otherwise? Say their leader is despotic and cruel. Should we tell them life can be otherwise?
It is obvious that I think it is for them to choose, but I believe these are all open questions.
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Do you get to choose who you" fall in love with" ?
by caliber init's possible to choose people you get to know.
so, in learning about the people around you, it is possible that the things you learn about them could be things you appreciate or, at the very least understand.
many ex-jw's believe they married for other reasons (than love ) such as spiritual qualities or for security.
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dgp
Finally Awake: