sd-7

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Posts by sd-7

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Can this logic be refuted?
by notsurewheretogo in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
i was an elder until march 2012 until i resigned.

i then stopped going to meetings in october 2012 and have enjoyed 9 months of freedom that i have found to be jouful!

i loved learning ttatt and sites like this and jwfacts.com have been excellent.. i told the elders that i needed a break and that they should not contact me unless it was a social visit and true to their word they have done that.
sd-7
Are my facts correct? (I don't have the WT references on hand but will do)

Pretty much. The organ transplant ban was in 1967, then discontinued in 1980. Ironically the same reasoning could be used to make blood transfusions a conscience matter, if you read the 1980 QFR on this issue.

Can any JW or the elders refute my logic so as to continue the lie that the Governing Body are the Channel of God?

Absolutely, though not so much with logic in return, but with the weight of their authority, a full weight to be brought to bear against you should you bring this issue up with them. I went through this discussion myself, and one elder on my committee even went so far as to say he could care less about 1914. He lived through the 1975 thing and felt that it simply shouldn't stop him from 'serving God'. Apparently he felt no need to ask a lot of questions about it. They won't care about refuting your logic. They will want to pin you down to saying something that will allow them to DF you. That's what the entire framework of the discussion will be maneuvered towards. They are bound by duty to only engage you up to a certain point, and then ask the loyalty question. An excerpt from my own committee, posted on a thread here:

They asked one final time, "Do you recognize the faithful and discreet slave, and that there is an organization that God is using today?" "No," I said.

One of them said [behind closed doors, yelling at his fellow elders], "I can't be dealing with no apostates in the congregation!"

It was maybe 10-15 minutes before they called me back in to tell me I was to be disfellowshipped.

What would they come back at me with?

"Have you been talking to apostates? This sounds like apostate reasoning." This would be asked, of course, in a judicial hearing if you present a question like the above to them. If you manage to ask that question in front of two of them, it's possible that will count as proof warranting a judicial hearing. So if you're trying to stay on the inside, you would do well not to ask that question at all.

--sd-7

WW I, the Gentile Times, and the Last days...the not so exact science of chronology

by Separation of Powers in

essentially, the jw position regarding the end of the gentile times and the significance of 1914 revolve around a principal element, namely, that the "great war" (ww1) was an indication of the anger of the dragon, i.e satan, after being cast out of heaven per revelation 12:7-9 and the start of the sign of the last days.

this has always been a sticky point for the organization....why?.

because, based on their chronology, the gentile times ended in october 3/4 of 1914 with the last days commencing from that point on.

sd-7

Some folks say it was all a distraction so the world wouldn't "discern" Jesus' invisible presence. Because obviously, had there been no war, people would've paid rapt attention to Watchtower predictions, right? --sd-7

Universal sovereignty, The Tower of Babel and witness tampering

by Simon in

the main premise of the bible is that satan challenged jehovahs authority and humans fell for the lie so god then gave man / satan a chance to rule to "prove" that they needed him and couldn't do it themselves.

this was for the benefit of the angels watching who are presumably easily swayed too.. not really believable and some stunning gaps of logic but let's go with it for now.. what happened next in the bible?

well, man was doing pretty good.

sd-7

basically plays age of empires for 4000 years

Yes! LOL! I can totally see YHWH with a headset on trading barbs with Satan over Divine FIOS.

YHWH: "Your Babylonians are done, Satan!"

Satan: "No! My moat!"

But clearly this demolishes the idea of sovereignty being the main theme of the Bible. If God did all this stuff, it says that he literally does not want man to progress as a race, and what kind of God is that? He gave man the ability to think and then punishes him everytime he decides to think or combine his thoughts with the thoughts of his fellowman? It would be kind of a sick thing to do...

--sd-7

Did you ridicule apostates for attacking the Org. and not Bible doctrine?.

by Wasanelder Once in

when i was a busy little pie-in-ear we had a local apostate who would come and pretend to be interested.

he always attacked russell and rutherford and the early organization.

(this was in the late 80's early 90's) after he left, the young brother with me said, "these apostates always attack the imperfect organization but never can show anything from the bible.

sd-7

Well, my approach to this has evolved over time. I don't much see a point in attacking, say, Russell and Rutherford themselves as men. I think understanding the Biblical issues, for me, was a vital part of this. I came to see that many verses that made up JW doctrine were taken out of context, and that reading the full context really sheds a lot of new meaning on things. This was a somewhat comforting thing to learn, that it wasn't necessarily the Bible itself, but the JWs' abuse of the Bible that was the problem.

Of course, in time I began to question the validity of the Bible itself as an absolute guide for morals and as an absolute guide to understanding the concept of 'God'. But I generally don't see a purpose in attacking the Bible itself, certainly not if I were speaking to a JW. The walls will go up even faster that way.

It's mainly the corrupt attitudes--as reflected in Watchtower literature--that I think are at the heart of the problem, in my mind. There's this sense of one's absolute rightness and everyone on the outside being absolutely wrong even if we agree with them in some ways. The idea that even if the GB royally f---s up, we're still supposed to just trust that they've got it all figured out.

The only time I can really recall even discussing apostates myself was in a talk I gave, in which I struggled to find any sort of meaningful discussion of what apostates actually said to people. Beyond that, it wasn't a topic I was particularly into talking about, since there were so many other things I considered more worthwhile to discuss (ie. the example of Jesus).

But you know, it came to a point for me where I just felt something was wrong, didn't know what for sure, so I started looking, and that was it.

--sd-7

Emotionally manipulative claptrap

by under_believer in

jw
friends

just watched the first drama of the convention.

man what a load of simplistic, lurid, manipulative garbage.

off to barf now.

sd-7

That's one of the best thread subject lines I've seen in awhile. Made me laugh...I shall feel your pain in a couple o' weeks. I'll be sure to find this thread and post my thoughts then...

--sd-7

Re: Revision of Sing to JehovahPiano Accompaniment

by pixel in

dear brothers: .

we are pleased to announce that the recordings for sing to jehovahpiano accompaniment have been revised and are now available on the jw.org web site for downloading.

these new recordings have improvements in their tempos, pausing, and sonic quality.

sd-7

It's funny to watch an entire audience start to fidget when they know they are getting close to one of those really awkward portions of a song...which is going to sound like a cat being dragged through a knothole everytime it's sung.

And who doesn't remember the old song 100? Once I learned how to understand musical notes (in 8th grade, I believe), I no longer had problems with that, and then I realized I was one of maybe two or three people in the KH who didn't mess it up. It's a tied note, man! Didn't anybody get tired of messing it up and decide to figure out how to get it right?

Well, some of the new songs definitely sound weird and offkey to me. There are some I think are actually decent, but then they took old classics and screwed those up or changed the lyrics for no real reason. Hmm. Oh, man. Not looking forward to hearing the massive sound of 6,000 people singing these songs in a couple o' weeks...

--sd-7

Casual sexism in Watchtower literature

by slimboyfat in

i notice the sexist language of the watchtower a lot more these days.

is it on the increase or am i simply more tuned into to noticing it now?

for example this statement in the june kingdom ministry:.

sd-7

I read. The entire article seemed to be written only for the girls. Arguments include 'no potential husband would want a woman who has slept around' and 'women who put out are always fun to date but never the ones men marry', etc. I was really kind of shocked (and NOTHING shockes me about that religion anymore). I checked the beginning again to see if there was anything anywhere that said "a young woman asked..." and there wasn't.

This logic doesn't even entirely hold from JW perspective. What they're trying to do is humiliate women who do have sexual experience and make them feel worthless or unlovable by a 'pure JW man'. While out of the other side of their mouth praising the prostitute Rahab as an example of how 'God dignifies women'. Shameful. How well do they expect this sort of thing to be accepted by the public?

It was pretty obvious to me that the women in the congregation were across the board smarter than the men. It was the men who were consistently incapable of decent reading skills. Frankly I would've been glad to see some female Watchtower readers, and that's just the beginning.

But yeah, I never did get the 'head of a woman is the man' concept. If we're all human, then we're all equal, we just have different equipment. I always thought marriage should be a partnership of equals who work with each other towards a common goal, not a place where there's a pecking order between husband and wife.

I think we need a Caleb's parents video here. Caleb's Dad: "You need to be wearing your head covering if you are going to pray in my presence! And TAKE THOSE PANTS OFF! Only I wear the pants in this family!!!"

--sd-7

exJW Psychology 101--Keeping Your Cool While Fading

by Billy the Ex-Bethelite in

jw
friends

in an effort to get some help and hopefully help others, i'd like to start this thread about psychology, specifically starting with the subject of anger management.. .

personally, i don't have much of a temper.

what i do have, i've learned to control.

sd-7

I'm pretty sure I flunked all your exJW Psych courses, B the X. Still not good at keeping my cool over these issues. It's like a furnace with a neverending flame, that sometimes gets subdued, but can never really be put out...

In fact, I don't get the sense that even some of the elders on my JC entirely kept their cool... I guess if I think back on what I said to them, I probably did throw a zinger or two out there that might've gotten under the chairman's skin a bit, you know, like throwing his own words back at him and all...

Ah, well. Too late to be cool about it now. But it would be healthier to find peace with this sort of stuff.

Also, I haven't been much of a son to my parents since leaving home. I haven't even really felt able to give them a call on the phone, even though my dad's never been a JW. Part of me never even wants to talk to my mom again in life. Hell, all of me never even wants to talk to my mom again in life. Or any of my other JW relatives, probably my wife included, terrible as that is to say.

I was used to getting bullied, either emotionally or physically, most of my life. Honestly, it's past time for me to get mad and be vocal about something for once. I've wanted to handle things more like you've done. I just f***ed it all up and never had the chance.

Whatever the case, thank you for writing this stuff down. I hope it helps other folks who have more self-control than I did.

--sd-7

Faithful Slave chosen in 1874

by Ultimate Reality in

as further proof that the 'slave's' appointment taking place in 1918/1919 is a bunch of non-sense and internally inconsistent with the society's own claims, they (that is, what became the slave) did not even know they were appointed in 1919. in the early 1920's, they thought russell was the slave and that he had been appointed by christ (as added proof of his heavenly presence) in the 1870s.. from the harp of god, chapter 9, (1921 edition):.

"...we mark a wonderful fulfillment of this statement of the lord as further corroborative proof of the lord's second presence from 1874 forward.

he had said, in answer to the question relative to his second presence: "who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

sd-7

Now that is a great find. Blows it all the frak out of the water. You sunk my theological Battleship!

--sd-7

Friend gets "scriptural divorce" over wifes transgressions before they got married...

by sosoconfused in

so i have a friend in a congregation in new jersey who recently called me to tell me that he got a divorce.

nothing surprising there at first but it is the fact of when it happened.

his wife began pioneering april 1, and after about three weeks she came to him and told him that about 4 years she had engaged in loose conduct (fondling the penis and the guy kissing her breasts) during a time that she was inactive.

sd-7

Wow. Those elders are going to have to reverse their decision, I would think--they're dead wrong, based on that article.

--sd-7