Posts by garyneal

20

How will the Watchtower change as OLDER MEMBERS DIE OFF?

by nicolaou in

the 'old-timers' generally carry a congregation.. .

i grew up in a cong' with six members of the 'anointed' - only one remains, a lovely lady with genuine warmth and interest in people who is now in a nursing home.. .

what happens when the depth that these individuals bring is lost?

garyneal

Well, I've already predicted a few changes happening over the course of say the next 50 years or sooner. That's not to say that they will occur, but looking at the trends, I cannot imagine at least one of these changes not occurring.

The doctrines concerning 1914 will be quietly dropped as it gets more and more difficult with each passing year to claim it as the 'truth.'

Birthdays may become a 'consceous matter' as the reasoning behind it is weak to start with. When you factor in the celebration of weddings and anniversaries and the parallel reasonings with birthdays, the whole shunning of birthdays becomes even harder to defend.

The society is in a pickle concerning the use of blood and I believe they will never come right out and allow it to be a conscious matter. Expect more changes though to what is allowed and what is not. Especially if a high ranking brother in the 'truth' faces a situation concerning some use of blood therapy. If the GB allows this brother to use whatever blood therapy that lies in the WT grey area, expect the society to follow suit.

While they may continue to put forth as 'models' people who have foregone college and career to put Kingdom interest first. The reality will hit them square in between the eyes and they will have to eventually admit to the possibility that one can pursue a career and pursue Kingdom interests at the same time.

74

THE REVELATION, ITS GRAND CLIMAX AT HAND"

by maputo95 in

jw
friends

do you have the revelation, its grand climax at hand" book"?

it is a fascinating book backed up throughout with scriptures will open your eyes but you must read it from beginning to end.. the above is a quote from my jw friend, inactive for 30 years and thinking of sheepishly returning.

is the book cited above a scholarly and dependable commentary on revelation?.

garyneal

As a young Christian (well 18 years ago that is) who was new in the Christian faith (becoming active in a fundamentalist church), I heard a lot of interpretations of what people think will happen during the tribulation period spoken of in Revelations. The mark of the beast is a barcode or it is a microchip implanted in someones right head of forehead. The beast might be a computer with a very large database with info on every man, woman, and child. The one world government will be the revived Roman empire rooted in the European Union. We will have a one world currency. Then there are the dates:

The generation who was alive in 1914 according to the Watchtower.
The generation who was alive in 1948 (when Israel became a nation) according to fundamentalists.
Armageddon in year 1975 (Watchtower).
The tribulation starting (according to certain fundamentalist) in 1980, late 1990's, around 2000 (to mark the end of the 6 day period).

This is just a few things, I would not be surprised if there are people saying that Obama is the anti-Christ and the tribulation period will either begin, end, or be half way finished (3.5 years) by 2012 (because of a Mayan calendar).

What all of this tells me is that when men try to interpret Revelations and try to connect the symbolism to actual events and even set dates, the interpretations never pan out (the dates in particular all turn out wrong). So what is a Christian who still believes that Christs return is immenent to do? Well, that Christian should still live a Godly life as if the events could happen tomorrow but live also like it will not happen for hundreds of years.

In other words, do not put off having a family, getting an education, or planning for retirement. Do not neglect the needs of today or some personal goals as if the 'new system' will be here next year. But continue to live in accords with the teachings of the Bible and Jesus Christ in your daily life. Because, while the 'end of the world' may not come tomorrow, your end might.

16

what is xmas dinner?

by highdose in

jw
friends

i've just realised i have no idea what i should be serving on 25/12!!.

turkey?

chicken?

garyneal

For my family, Christmas dinner basically the same as Thanksgiving dinner (Turkey, Ham, Candied Yams, etc.) with some extras (one Christmas, my grandmother served KFC and its sides with the usual dinner items).

75

"The way of the truth is the best way of living. No better way can there be found."

by nicolaou in

"the way of the truth is the best way of living.. no better way can there be found.".

remember that?

it's the opening line to 'make the truth your own'.

garyneal

Very good observation Watson.

One of the things I've noticed between the Kingdom Halls and churches are that the KH's are uniform in their worship and structure. They do have also a strict adherrence to biblical principles (at least their interpretation of Bible principles). However, they also have conformity and squash independent thought.

I find myself at odds with my wife because it seems like no matter what I say, if it does not harmonize with or is in any way critical of the org, I am wrong and my thinking gets labeled as "Gary-ism."

I also find myself having a difficult time finding a church where everyone worships so uniformly like in the KH's. In fact, I am finding myself challenged on views and traditions based on the Bible that I learned and believed in that originated from the fundamentalist churches that I use to attend. Overall, though, I think it is a good thing and it is certainly making me think.

Chalam (Stephen) could certainly attest to some 'disagreements' we had concerning the gift of tongues. This is the similar to what goes on in churches too over this and other Bible teachings, but the difference is that this is allowed and the Bible alone is appealed to for final authority.

I wonder how many active Jehovah's Witnesses can discuss disagreement concerning Watchtower teachings without fearing the dreaded 'apostate' label?

20

Propoganda from JW film excerpt: Painting the Fence with Brother Fisek

by OnTheWayOut in

i don't know if this one was posted, but i thought you might want to see what kind of garbage they tell the young ones.. stop missing meetings, stop setting college and career goals.

run for jehovah:.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kz8t6rkp5mq&feature=player_embedded#.

garyneal

The individual reason is a little different. I didn't go to college because I believed that armageddon was imminent. It would most likely come while I was in college, and I would be wasting time getting an obsolete education instead of saving lives by preaching to people. That's why I dropped out of high school to pioneer. I wasn't good at many things, so I put all my effort into being a good JW. Good JWs are patted on the head for pioneering, not college.

If you do not mind my asking, how long ago was it since you quit HS to pioneer? I only ask this because your statements make you sound like you did this back in the 1970's, however you look very young in your fairy costume picture I saw in another thread. I guess I just find it difficult to believe that JW's are still being encouraged to quit HS and pioneer in 2009.

20

Propoganda from JW film excerpt: Painting the Fence with Brother Fisek

by OnTheWayOut in

i don't know if this one was posted, but i thought you might want to see what kind of garbage they tell the young ones.. stop missing meetings, stop setting college and career goals.

run for jehovah:.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kz8t6rkp5mq&feature=player_embedded#.

garyneal

Yeah, I remember watching this very video a few years back with my wife before our daughter was born. We actually had a conversation about something along these lines tonight. At the last assembly that they had in Richmond, a young girl was brought on stage where she spoke about how she gave up going to college even though she was doing quite well in High School in order to serve Jehovah. I think selfless acts like these are commendable but no one seems to suggest that it is equally possible to serve the Lord and attend college.

So here are some things that was brought up:

Wife: Instead of putting Kingdom interest first, people go to college and pursue "worldly" goals in order to make lots and lots of money.
Me: You mean like getting a high paying job like a doctor or lawyer.
Wife: You know they are in it for the money, how is that putting Kingdom interest first?
Me: I understand what you mean about some lawyers being all about the money. They eventually sell their souls (or violate their concious in a big way) in order to obtain status and wealth. But couldn't a lawyer be useful to the organization? Doesn't the Watchtower society use lawyers to ensure that Jehovah's Witnesses have the freedom to go door to door? Doesn't that benefit Kingdom interest?
Me: What about doctors? Wouldn't it be nice if a Jehovah's Witness aspires to be a doctor who specializes in performing surgeries without using blood or maybe researches other bloodless treatments that actually work? That would greatly benefit the hapless witnesses facing these real difficult decisions over blood use. Wouldn't this benefit Kingdom interest?

I am not sure why, but this reasoning was lost on my wife. She thinks I am trying to combine worldly things with Kingdom things. I asked her why is it so discouraged for witnesses to go to college. Aren't there people there too who might would benefit from hearing the Kingdom message? The witness could maybe organize a group to perform Bible studies with? If this thing could actually gain traction, I could imaging their numbers getting very large indeed.

Why do Jehovah's Witnesses take such dim views on college? I can understand why one should seek first the Kingdom of God and have all our needs added to us but why take such a dim view of higher education? If every Jehovah's Witness followed this recommendation can you imagine what the Society would be like with all of its member having nothing more than a High School diploma (or maybe not even that).

8

"Gary-isms"

by garyneal in

this is a new buzzword that my wife invented to label my way of thinking.

apparently, she is not very happy with my critically examining watchtower teachings and calling out any inconsistencies that i see.

here are some examples of "gary-ism:".

garyneal

Thanks Stephen,

You're right, it is WT-ism to think that tongue speaking is wholly inspired by the devil, the elder's wife certainly believes this. As for me, I just drew a parallel between those who believe the spirit inspired them to speak in unknown tongues and those who believe that the spirit annoints them into the 144,000 ruling class in how it may be possible that the devil could be inspiring some of those individuals in both cases.

I have been looking at the scriptures that the associated pastor pointed out and it does appear that the scriptures could be interpreted in the way that they have done it where one person speaks in an unknown tongue and another interprets. At the same time, I can also see how the passages could be interpreted so that tongues are really the divine power to speak another language without formally studying it. The Jehovah's Witnesses are not the only people who hold this view of tongues.

However, even if my pastor's interpretation of tongues is correct there are times, I believe, where this gift could be abused and the inspiration may not have come from God. For example:

Tongue speaker: jibberish, jibberish, jibberish, jibberish
Interpreter: Please continue to give your tithes to the Lord. Our church needs your gifts in order to continue to be a light to the world. Remember God wants your full ten percent of your wages, your first fruits. Give, and He will bless you, give because it is God's commandment. YOU DO WANT TO PLEASE GOD, right? But what if you say you barely have enough to support your family? Oh ye of little faith, remember the widow's offering in Luke 21:1-4. Give all you have and the Lord will bless you with abundance. If you are too concerned about your circumstances, you are not concerning yourself enough with serving the Lord.

Laying on the guilt trip just as the Watchtower does. Can you not see the parallel between this inspiration and the 'inspired' preaching of the Watchtower where the witnesses believe that the answers to all of life's problems comes solely from attending more meetings, going out in more field service, pray more, do more for Jehovah, and contribute to the worldwide preaching work? I want to support my church, but not under coercion. Remember, the Lord loves a cheerful giver (2 Corinthians 9:7). Can we be certain that the inspiration for this interpretation is truly from God or maybe it is the pastor's concern about the dwindling funds coming into the church. (By the way, this inspiration to give till it hurts did not come from my church, it is just an illustration.)

Now here is the parallel between the tongue speaker and the Watchtower's teaching of the 144,000 that I pointed out to the elder's wife. Remember, only members of the 'annointed class' can be appointed to the Governing Body. Therefore, what if an individual gets the impression that he or she is of the 'annointed' but, in this case, that impression came not from God but from the devil? If this person climbs the ranks of the Watchtower and someday gets appointed to the governing body, would the devil not be influencing and/or possibly even directing the governing body? When I posed this scenario to the elder's wife, she said that this would not happen because this individual would not be acting in accordance with the Bible.

Please bear in mind that I am not saying that this is what is happening for I am not going to be presumptuous and state that the Watchtower's governing body is under the influence of Satan. I am also not going to be presumptuous and say that the tongue speaker is being inspired by the devil. In short, I don't know in either case however, Raymond Franz's book "Crisis of Consious" is an eye-opener concerning the governing body's 'inspirations.'

We must always continue to test the spirits and hold fast to what is truth because many false prophets have gone out into the world (1 John 4:1). We're quick to call the Watchtower a false prophet, in spite of the fact that they believe they are guided by 'spirit annointed' Christians, because we test them against the Bible. Let's make sure we do the same thing with the tongue speakers and their interpreters. I will continue to consult the Bible and pray and ask for direction from God's Holy Spirit on this for there is a lot of confusion regarding the gift of tongues. Personally, I would rather edify the church by reading or quoting passages from the Bible as the Holy Spirit guides me to rather than speak 50 words in an unknown tongue. This would seem to parallel Paul's remarks in 1 Corinthians 14:19. I believe that the passages concerning orderly worship should be followed very carefully (1 Corinthians 14:26-40).

8

"Gary-isms"

by garyneal in

this is a new buzzword that my wife invented to label my way of thinking.

apparently, she is not very happy with my critically examining watchtower teachings and calling out any inconsistencies that i see.

here are some examples of "gary-ism:".

garyneal

This is a new buzzword that my wife invented to label my way of thinking. Apparently, she is not very happy with my critically examining Watchtower teachings and calling out any inconsistencies that I see. Here are some examples of "Gary-ism:"

At the last assembly, the brothers was giving us a warning about PORNOGRAPHY. Of all the things this brother could've warned us about, he chose pornography. Why did he single out pornography? I wrote this question down in my notes and when my wife saw it, she wrote above it "Gary-ism."

My church engaged in something that I did not agree with. They spoke in tongues in turn with an interpreter. I e-mail both the pastor and associate pastor concerning this and the associate pastor pointed me to a lot of scripture concerning the practice. I looked over those verses but I haven't gotten back with him yet on my answer. My wife and I reasoned on it after the assembly and I will admit, the WT seems to have a view similar to mine own concerning this. But when I told my wife that the tongue speaking could've been inspired by the devil just as a member of the annointed class could've came under that impression by the devil, she called it "Gary-ism."

So let me get this straight, when I have a doctrinal dispute with my church and look to the Bible for answers, I am a Berean. But when I have a doctrinal dispute with the Watchtower, it's "Gary-ism."

Speaking of Bereans, apparently my wife did not know what a Berean Christian is. When I told her about them and how when Paul would bring a message, they would make sure it is in the sacred text before they accepted it. They would send Paul to the back of the church and Paul would say, "Amen brother." My wife would tell me that not only would I send Paul to the back of the church, I would send him home on his camel and tell him to check back in a month or so as I would look in the Bible and try to prove him wrong. This inspite of the fact that the Watchtower and I agree on the potential of misusing the gift of tongues and that I too believe it is more a divine gift to speak another language without studying it rather than speaking jibberish.

As she and I would discuss doctrinal issues of the Watchtower, she would always say "Let the camel get his drink, Paul is still with us, right?" So silly, but it clearly shows that she just wants to keep drinking the kool-aid for if the Watchtower says it, it must be true.

A few more "Gary-isms:"

Why did the brother at the assembly give a talk about baptism in the holy spirit, then asked the baptismal candidates the same two questions baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the spirit directed organization? (This still gives me a chuckle...) If they are being baptised in the name of the Holy Spirit also, ask them that and leave the organization out of it.

The doctrine of 1914 will be dropped. This is inevitable because the evidence for it gets weaker and weaker by the year. But according to my wife, the GB must know what they are talking about because surely they would not promote such a date without fully making sure of its accuracy, right? (I'm still waiting on the elder to provide me documentation proving this date.)

The only thing more complicated than their blood doctrine is the U.S. tax code. If God is not a God of confusion, how can the Watchtower society come out with such a confusing and contradictory doctrine concerning the use of blood and claim it is from God?

75

"The way of the truth is the best way of living. No better way can there be found."

by nicolaou in

"the way of the truth is the best way of living.. no better way can there be found.".

remember that?

it's the opening line to 'make the truth your own'.

garyneal

AGuest certainly has a point and it looks like you touched on it yourself in your first point. If anyone is willing to live a lie because it is comfortable then I can hardly see how Jesus Christ would be okay with that. Especially if that lie hurts other people.

I can understand how Christians disagree about certain teachings (tongue speaking, prophecying, can salvation can be lost, etc.) but the difference between Christians and the Watchtower is that Christians can agree to disagree on peripheral doctrines. The Watchtower promotes an all or nothing (take it or leave it) approach to their doctrines and disfellowships anyone who disagrees with even a single piece of it (say 1914).

26

Please help!!

by mamashel6 in

jw
friends

i am brand new here and i am heartbroken looking for answers.

i have been married for 18 yrs.

yes 18 years.

garyneal

Wow, I had to chime in. It does sound like you are in a rough patch and I can certainly relate. A few years back my wife 'lost her mind' but it wasn't exactly over the religion thing, it was over my son. Even the elder with whom she (and sometimes I) have our 'Bible study' with and his wife saw how bad it was (along with her mom and dad). It took her being carted off to jail one day before she woke up and made changes.

My heart and prayers go out to you as it is clear that he is not in his right mind. In fact, he's not even acting in a matter that pleases God. If the elders are supporting him it is most likely because they are not receiving the whole truth of the story.

In the meantime, you've got to do what is best for you and yours. Emotional abuse is still abuse and is hurting you and not doing your sons any good either. My son witnessed my wife 'losing it' that day and her pushing me around, scratching and hitting me. When the police arrive, he witnessed her being put in handcuffs and hauled off downtown. They showed great compassion for her because I never wanted for her to get in trouble (I just wanted to get away and take my son with me). So they did not actually put her in a cell and eventually brought her back home without pressing charges. Good thing too, because I think if they had filed charges, she would not be teaching preschool today.