Posts by DrJohnStMark

22

NOAH'S FLOOD vs PYRAMIDS

by elder-schmelder in

noah's flood (about 2300 bce).

pyramids build:.

pyramid / pharaohreignfielddjoserc.

DrJohnStMark

Answer to elder-schmelder: Built before the Flood that never happened. Questions for the WTBTS:

1) Since hundreds of pharaoh's are known from archaeology and their reigns dated, why does the Society not take the list and give their own datings for each of them? Then we should believe... Well, they might get into some trouble, because many of the names are connected to the known history of other nations as well... but here is the challenge to the Brooklyn guys: Update the table http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pharaohs

2) Concerning the dating of the pyramids, a couple of years ago I read Chris Turney's book Bones, Rocks and Stars, with some interesting stuff on independent dating of the pyramids based on astronomical data (nothing to do with Alcyone...). Or is this problem for the Society solved by 'sun standing still' etc?

3) Another question for the Society: After the Flood, how much time would be needed for such a big nation and a strong civilization to evolve so that it could produce monuments such as the great pyramid? Some time had already been lost in building the first tower and relocating and there were no giants left on earth...

25

Why does every prophecy has to have two (or more) completions?

by teel in

you know the standard jw doctrine, babylon the great, fall of jerusalem, kingship of david, jonah's life you name it, it has to have a "bigger completion" later.

some of these are actually mentioned in the bible - jesus being the bigger jonah, revelations mentioning the fall of babylon the great many years after the actuall babylon fell, jerusalem falling to babylon was just a precursor to jerusalem falling to the romans, which was just a precursor to... (what now?

meh... is old age creeping upon me?

DrJohnStMark

drew sagan: I totally killed this thread...

After you analysis, the slot machine is empty, perhaps... In any case, it is exactly how it goes and I remember that kind of strategy was even recommended in the KM. The level-1 stuff is mostly things you want to believe, the level-2 those you would not like to believe but are made to. Level-3 might contain the things the rank-and-file JWs are never supposed to know (about the history of the organization etc) but some of them learn to know.

Some twenty years ago a well-known convention speaker used the following metaphor in trying to strengthen the trust of the audience in the end-of-this-world predictions of the WT society: "When a fisherman comes to you telling about the big salmon he just got out of the water and starts to pull the salmon out of his bag then, after you see the big head of the fish, you would not think that the rest of it is not salmon, would you?" It perhaps had not come into his mind that some people in the audience knew quite well what the WT predictions had been from the very beginning...

6

Jesus Tempatations by Satan

by cantleave in

i have following the thread on the trinity and discussing the points with my wife who has put the following point forward.

jesus on earth as a man was tempted by satan.

it is the nature of these temptations which seems to indicate that jesus is not the same being as almighty god.

DrJohnStMark

I like this one too. I am no expert in biblical Greek and have sometimes been wondering what may have been written between the lines in the original text (with the choice of particular phrases), for example where Satan seems to be questioning the whole concept: "If thou be the Son of God..." (Mt.4:6)

It's also fun to see how Satan is "reasoning from the scriptures" exactly the way the Society does, using one verse at a time.

66

Did you Exit the Witnesses Gradually - Or Exit Suddenly - Your Reasons ?

by flipper in

jw
friends

i thought it would be good to discuss it to understand what caused some of us to exit suddenly, or some to exit gradually .. myself , i had been in 44 years , had mentally had doubts for years before exiting - but injustices by the elders and my doubts about the " generation " doctrine led me to exit suddenly one night before a meeting.

the elders pissed me off , i went to my seat, picked my books up and walked out - never going back.

so what is your story and reasons ?

DrJohnStMark

I faded out, initiated by being some time physically ill and therefore away from meetings and other activity. I already had had doubts and disagreed on some specific teachings of the WT (such as most other people to be butchered by god or the details of how and when life on earth had emerged) and I already had lost some privileges, but getting out of the control was the turning point.

After it, I was depressed for quite a while, because of some of the (possibly) best years of my life wasted in the organization and, more important, because of the situation in the family: Around me I saw too much unfulfilled life or life unlived and no way out (I had been a born-in JW). Then there was a period of trying to catch up, maybe to compensate for the lost years, studying and working very hard, getting absorbed with culture etc... and fading, trying not to loose contact with my family members hoping to help them.

Some years later an elder of the local JW congregation contacted me asking if I could consider returning active again and saying that they might have use for me in the congregation (I had not been disfellowshipped). I said no and told him why. After that I have had no direct contact with the org.

23

Did you ever feel being a JW was like ...

by sacolton in

having a license to be a complete douchebag to others?

it did for me.

i could automatically judge and condemn those who i didn't know and feel superior towards "worldly" people.. .

DrJohnStMark

dgp:when one of the worldlies showed you true affection and appreciation, and perhaps even love, how were you able to make that fit into your beliefs?

There was someone waiting/deserving to be converted to JW.

32

Pink Songbooks - Green Bibles

by nicolaou in

jw
friends

those of us who've been around long enough will understand the title.

what we are looking for here are examples of the society's lack of taste.. for example, i'm sure our kingdom hall wasn't the only one in the 70's with dark brown carpeting that rose halfway up the walls and a nice trendy rubber plant in the corner of the platform!.

nic'.

DrJohnStMark

I learned to read from the orange-cover "Parasite book" and remember also the freaky colors of the figures... like the figure where Jehovah kills a small girl holding her doll. Remember also the pink songbook, the green NWT Bible and the ugly grayish-green book "Make your family life hell". The WTBTS rainbow is still easy to recognize in the shelf of the public library...

23

Did you ever feel being a JW was like ...

by sacolton in

having a license to be a complete douchebag to others?

it did for me.

i could automatically judge and condemn those who i didn't know and feel superior towards "worldly" people.. .

DrJohnStMark

Finally-Free:...she'd gently pat me on the thigh and say, "Don't worry dear, he'll die at armageddon."

I remember hearing the same and always felt it was awful. One JW, who lived in the same block with me for about ten years, used to comment on our non-JW neigbours' deaths: "They all die." Not us, that is.

And the most hair-raising statement of all, which I heard a few times from so-called mature elders: "He died as disfellowshipped."

33

I Talked To A JW At A Bar Last Night

by minimus in

jw
friends

he's a nephew of my good friend that i hang with, he's 48, married, used to have a beard, and is very much a terrific person.... except that he's a witness.. he then smiled and said, "i know, i know, i know.

"...and bought me a beer and talked about other stuff for a half hour..

DrJohnStMark

minimus: Methink Jesus would have a drink with us too!

After we told him some things, I think he would drink a lot.

8

Creation speculation

by JimmyPage in

jw
friends

i still see evidence of intelligent design around me, but i don't believe everything a book tells me just because it claims to be inspired.

so i ask, as i look around at creations, both animal and human, that are all flawed: is it possible that our creator was imperfect?.

is it possible there was more than one creator?

DrJohnStMark

Unintelligent or bad or evil design? An imperfect god using evolution leading to dead ends where there's no way back for better construction?

One of my favorite examples is the human eye. Compare it with a camera and imagine some engineer designed the camera in such a way that the wires taking the information to the memory card were drawn on the front side of the image recording element (ccd) thus creating a blind spot in the image... What would be an acceptable excuse for such design? Designed by a comittee, perhaps?

"Creationists often cite the human eye as a model of perfection... And the human eye is far from a model of perfection. In all vertebrate eyes the wire from each of three million light-sensitive retinal cells passes in front of the retina, and the collection is bundled into the optic nerve, creating a blind spot. This set-up is just the reverse of what any designer would construct: wires leading away from the backside, not light side, of the light-sensitive cells."

This and more: http://www.csicop.org/si/show/neither_intelligent_nor_designed/

22

just a thought on watchtower,Dec.1

by pat1060 in

jw
friends

i was looking over the december 1 watchtower,the one for the public.on page 8 there is an article called the appointed time is near.is is a small article on all the events of the last days.all the scriptures.but not a word about 1914.i heard a while back that 1914 may just start to fade from the literature.did any one else see this article?.

DrJohnStMark

Perhaps they are waiting for 2034 that would be 120 yrs, like Noah's time, from 1914. Then the WT society also could say that, according to some biblical rule, the time had been doubled by Jehovah's mercy, namely it is almost exactly 60 yrs from 1914 to 1975 and from 1975 to 2034.

Time flies...