Posts by Krettnawe

14

Shouldn't the 1,000 yr reign have already started in 1914?

by cognac in

i asked my dad that years ago and he said that it wouldn't start until the new system comes.

does this not make sense to anybody else?

i thought it would have started when jesus came back whicj was supposedly in 1914... .

Krettnawe

The JW's teach a two prong approach to the Second Coming of Jesus.

Most religions dont teach that.

To JW's there is the Presence (parasoia) which began in 1914 when (according to JW doctrine) Jesus gave Satan the boot, and began to "rule in the midst of his enemies" (kind of have to ignore that whole "rule" word huh?)

And then there is the COMING (erchomai) when Jesus actualy begins his rule.

They use the NT's allusion to the "days of Noah" as proof for this.

The presence was equated with the warning era when Noah was building the ARK, and then the Coming is equated with the rain and the flood.

According to JW we are in the midst of the parasoia....

When Jesus's COMING (erchomai) arrives then is when he starts officially ruling.

It has been awhile so correct me if I am wrong...

63

Judical Committee- FUBAR decisions

by Think About It in

jw
friends

i had posted this as part of another thread, but thought it might make a good separate thread.

here's a jc fubar decision that i experienced.. i dealt with a brother who threatened to kill his family, my family, and then himself.

this guys' secret sins were becoming manifest and as an elder some things came to my attention, including wife abuse and according to her, allegations of possible misconduct with the young daughter.

Krettnawe

The elders are just people. A cross-section of society. They are as capable of any act as any other member of society. Saying they wouldn't do such a thing is like saying catholic priest wouldn't molest a child be because of his office.

Bingo.....

The thing is people always remember the bad more than the good many times in life.

Is there one person that had a positive experience with the elders?

Three of them gathered together after I had admitted smoking, and I found it to be uplifting, and probably the high point of my short JW career. Rather than being the over-bearing, uncaring, Gotcha!, quick to throw you away persons presented by many ex-JW's I found them helpfull, and willing to help.

I am sure there are instances of elders screwing up royally, but they are JUST people.

For the most part, most are doing the best they can under the circumstances.

Snapshots are never a good way to judge a person or a group. One has to see the whole movie.

48

Moral Question ...

by sacolton in

jw
friends

would you use the handicap stall that is big and roomy ... even if other smaller stalls were available?.

Krettnawe

If we are going by the cleanest bathroom , then I would be headed to he women's bathroom everytime. Women, you you would be appaled at how nasty teh men's bathroom is.

Well.... if you hae a husband or a couple of boys maybe not...

I dont think anyone would intentionally thumb their nose at a handicapped person going to the rest room. Kind of low....

28

Disfellowshipped People Are A Bad Lot

by garyneal in

jw
friends

a week prior to my wife being baptized she and i discussed the reasons why people are disfellowshipped.

she says that people are disfellowshipped because they simply want to live their lives the way they want to and no longer submit to god's will.

in other words, they want to do something that is immoral and goes against bible principles.

Krettnawe

I was approached last Friday by a gentlemen who runs a non-profit organization to help drop-outs get back into school. He runs an after school Athletics program, and needs someone who can organize a basketball program on Saturdays and Wednesdays.

I am a teacher, and work mostly with the lower SES children at our school, I am a basketball coach, a soccer coach, a volleyabll coach, so of course this is right up my alley. I really feel this is an oppurtunity put before me by some higher power.

Anyway, the whole point,( just in case you were thinking "how narsasistic is this guy?) is that if I were still attending JW meetings, still keeping up with the drum beat that is JW lifestyle, I would never be able to pursue something that I feel is much more important than passing out magazines every Saturday.

JW limit preaching to door to door pursuits. Of course there is nothing wrong with that, as I would have never read the Bible without them doing that, and it does take a lot of courage to put yourself out there like that. (hint: best way to stop a conversation is to ask "have you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal savior? Use it when needed, for the most part it works immediatly)

But...

It limits you to one pursuit. I was always decent door to door, but I feel like I am much better suited to helping low income students out in some way.

JW lifestyle is just so boxed in and xenophobic.

So while DFing may hurt, many times it is a way to start over, re-consider your path, and decide if you really are using the talents Jehovah GOD gave you.

Might I also add that, for the most part, people who are DFED are not DFED out of the blue. There is a series of choices that leads up to it. Not saying those choices are wrong all the time, but hey, if you cant accept the consequence of certain actions, then dont pursue those actions. How many people are actually blindsided by a DFing?

Be honest......

31

Watchtower blaspheming the holy spirit

by sacolton in

"spawn of satan!".

"apostate!".

those are just a few from jehovah's witnesses towards those who have left the watchtower organization to become a follower of jesus christ.. do they know they are blaspheming against the holy spirit?

Krettnawe

Krett, thanks for the expansion. I am curious, what do you presently believe about:

- Jesus, is He God (same substance as the Father) or less than God (a little so-called god who should not be worshipped and prayed to)?

I dont beleive Jesus is GOD, but rather the SON of GOD. The nature argument, or substance argument I have seen so many times put forth by Trinitarians has never made sense to me beause this substance or nature is undefinable in the BIBLE. You see, the angels are called "elohiyms" in Psalms 8:5, and even Jesus refers back to Psalms 82 In John 10:34-35 where the Judges were called gods. Also, in 1 Peter 2:4 it says the followers of Jesus will "share in the divine nature". If we follow this undefinable substance or nature argument then all those who share this must also be GOD. (My gosh am I really putting myself into another Trinity argument.... sigh....).

Should he be worshipped? As in the same worship the congregation of Philadelphia recieves in REvelation 3:9, or the Ruler receives in Matthew 18:26? Once again, if we are going to use "proskueno" as a basis for deciding who is GOD, then that principle must apply in all cases. But it doesnt, and the selective translation is not a good basis for such a central doctrine for so many.

With that in mind I do think he should be prayed to. After he recieved "ALL AUTHORITY" he should be honored as his FATHER Jehovah is (John 5:22-23) and he clearly said HE could and would answer prayers in John 14:14. But, all of those things were only possible after it had been GIVEN to him by Jehovah. So, it clearly was not his, and to me this means he isnt GOD.

The Oneness and Modalism Trinitarianism presented by the WTS is a good Strawman no doubt, but even after looking at other explanations I still just can't bring myself to saying the BEGOTTEN is the same as the BEGETTER.

But I dont beleive the WTS gives enough credit to Jesus personally, and the intellectualizing of Christianity (taking in knowledge of) instead of "knowing" Jesus means they cant quite understand Jesus's role completely.

- the Holy Spirit (not a person, not the same substance as the Father)?

Not GOD, just the power that he uses to "become what he shall become". I kind of covered the "substance argument above.

- are you born again?

I have been waiting for my Damuscusation but it hasnt happened yet. Perhaps I am holding back, because I do feel when I examine myself I have so many things to work on. I have never taken Communion, and just cant bring myself to making such a claim. I have seen others describe it as a "life-changing" event. Perhaps I am not worthy to recieve that, perhaps I am expecting too much, or perhaps I just dont know what to expect. I have had one spritually moving experience (besides all teh cliche ones) and that was when I heard a sermon about staying in the boat or walking on the water. I realized the WTS was my boat. It was comfortable and it floated, but I would like to think I am special enough to walk on water for just a bit! But, to be honest, I have tested teh water a few times, and still find myself sinking. I am working on it though.

So to answer your question...

I dont know, and I dont know if I ever will know.

- are you indwelt by the Holy Spirit?

Explained above..... That is an awfully loud declaration, and I still dont feel like I am up to the challenge of meeting the responsibility that comes with that statement.

Be carefull, because if you expect the WTS or others to be perfect after making this declaration, then you ought to do the same.

I just cant go there yet....

Thanks!

31

Watchtower blaspheming the holy spirit

by sacolton in

"spawn of satan!".

"apostate!".

those are just a few from jehovah's witnesses towards those who have left the watchtower organization to become a follower of jesus christ.. do they know they are blaspheming against the holy spirit?

Krettnawe

Krett, what exactly do you disagree with in my post?

Just the way it is presented. I personally find dogmatic assertions of interpretive superiority over subjective subjects of discussion, and man-made checklists of approval before GOD as counter-productive to the overall spirit of Christiainty. Or perhaps I am overly-sensitive to this behavior because it is something the WTS does. But at least they admit it rather than pretend it isnt happening.

After all that distaste for dogmaticism is eventually what led me out of JW's. But I have found in my on-line discussion with many ex-JW's that they find themselves back in the very trap they escaped from. Sure, they cant force anyone to beleive what they want them to beleive as an individual, but if they had the organizational structure the WTS does.... What would they do?

You have already set up my destruction because, by your own words, I blaspheme against the SPIRIT because I dont beleive the HOLY SPIRIT is a being of any kind. You dont like it when the JW's do this to you right? Why would I like it when you do this to me?

If the Holy Spirit calls someone out of the Watchtower organization to become a follower of Jesus Christ (and give Him worship) - why do Jehovah's Witnesses say they have become followers of Satan or that they have abandoned God?

What if the HOLY SPIRIT is keeping someone in the WTS? You see, for me personally, I needed the WTS to be brought into a relationship with Jesus Christ. I was a practicing ATHIEST/ AGNOSTIC and would have never set foot inot a Church without someone coming and plucking me out of my little world. That someone happened to be the JW's. I learned alot from them about the Bible, they put forth alot of effort in HELPING ME IMPROVE my life. My BS instructor was like a FATHER to me, and many individual JW's put alot of hours into helping my family and I in many different ways. So, my point is, that I believe GOD puts each and every one of us exactly where we need to be at a certain time.

Eventually I felt like I outgrew the WTS so to speak, and moved on. But that wasnt something that happened overnight. We should be carefull about tearing people away from the only world they know, because for some this leads to spiritual shipwreck. Jesus never said the ones that stayed in the boat were not his followers did he? Peter did something extraordinary by stepping out of the boat and keeping his eyes on Jesus. But some people are not ready for that, nor will they ever be. But at least they are not drowning.

JW's beleive Jesus worship (as in he is GOD) is worshipping the creation rather than the creator. When one worships the BEGOTTEN RATHER than the BEGETTER then your not meeting a checkpoint on thier list of GOD's approval. They beleive, honestly beleive, they are right, and their spiritual vision is not wide enough to see how ludicrous it is for GOD to start closing up the heavens over subjective doctrines.

But, as someone who has widened out so to speak, should we still participate in the same behavior we have left behind? If you are truly spiritually enlightened then you should be able to rise above the very behavior that you came to loathe.

JW Do you not agree that this grieves the Holy Spirit? I'm not judging anyone.

Now GRIEVING the HOLY SPIRIT and blasphemeing the HOLY SPIRIT are different matters. I think humans do alot of things to each other and to themselves that grieves the HOLY SPIRIT.

But blaspheming the HOLY SPIRIT based on subjective interpretations...

That is treading on dangerous ground.... Especially if you have outgrown that spiritual infancy that spawns dogmaticism.

I was interrupted many times, sorry if it rambles a bit...

31

Watchtower blaspheming the holy spirit

by sacolton in

"spawn of satan!".

"apostate!".

those are just a few from jehovah's witnesses towards those who have left the watchtower organization to become a follower of jesus christ.. do they know they are blaspheming against the holy spirit?

Krettnawe

Guys this thread is an exercise in irony and a very veiled insistence that one beleive in one interpretation over another.

The original poster starts off with the terms Spawn of Satan and Apostate and then makes the jump to blaspheming against the Holy Spirit...

What did Jesus say is the only unforgivable sin? What is the end for all those who do this?

So, what prompts the poster to sit himself in the judgement seat of Jesus and announce this upon all JW's?

A difference in interpretation over what the Holy Spirit is.

How is that any different than what the JW's do?

If I dont believe the HOLY Spirit is a person, but rather a force, does that mean I am destined to commit the unforgivable sin?

If, I commit that unforgivable sin, what does that mean for my salvation?

So, the gigantic piece of irony many of you are missing is the fact that the original poster starts off railing against the JW's for announcing his spiritual demise based on him no longer accepting thier interpretations, and then goes on to announce thier spiritual demise for them not agreeing with his new interpretation.

Am I really the only one that sees that?

BTW, no thanks on the Trinity debate, been through plenty of them, and have no desire to argue over things that I dont consider an ingredient for salvation.

I dont beleive in the Trinity, but attend a Trinitarian Church, and have no problem with people beleiving in whatever interpretation they want to beleive in.

I do have a problem with people talking about straws while totally missing the rafter.

"

31

Watchtower blaspheming the holy spirit

by sacolton in

"spawn of satan!".

"apostate!".

those are just a few from jehovah's witnesses towards those who have left the watchtower organization to become a follower of jesus christ.. do they know they are blaspheming against the holy spirit?

Krettnawe

Another Trinity discussion?

Here, let me save you guys some time.

Here's a hammer, here is a bowl full of Jell-o..

Now go nail it to that tree.

The original post is dogmatic, and is doing the same thing that many ex-JW complain about with JW's. It is pushing a beleif down the throat of others under the guise of spiritual enlightment.

The JW's claim they are followers of Jesus Christ too. Why would they curse you for that? That is a misrepresentation. They curse you for not being in thier club anymore, and not beleiving what they beleive.

Sorry to give some of you a big glass of reality, but, uh, many ex-JW's do the same...

That is the point, and if you want to still be as dogmatic as the JW's in your beleifs even after you have left them then go right ahead. But, keep in mind, that to the outsider, your still being "pharasaic" and you are still "closing the heavens up" to those who dont agree with your particular interpretation.

Dont confuse a new target, and a re-shuffle of beleifs as spiritual enlightment. Otherwise, you may just find yourself steeped in a big pile of steaming hipocrasy that never smells to you...

Until it is pointed out.

31

Watchtower blaspheming the holy spirit

by sacolton in

"spawn of satan!".

"apostate!".

those are just a few from jehovah's witnesses towards those who have left the watchtower organization to become a follower of jesus christ.. do they know they are blaspheming against the holy spirit?

Krettnawe

JW are accused by thier opposers of being pedophile protectors, of abusing thier children, of being Satanic, and all other sorts of other anti-JW "buzzwords" that is suprisingly common amongst the anti-JW propoganda machine out there.

It definetly works both ways. I really find it interesting that many who have left the JW's still get upset when JW's drop the big bad A word on them. If your secure in your relationship with GOD then why do you care what one person says or thinks about YOUR standing before GOD?

Let's not forget that one of the main reasons many have left JW is because of the dogmatcism, the xenophobia, and the checklist they create for approval to Jehovah GOD.

With that in mind lets not fall into the trap of hipocrasy by making our own.

Is beleif in the TRINITY something that is needed for salvation?

Do you find yourself accepting any interpretation but JW intepretations?

Are ex-JW's still letting the WTS define thier spiritual existence?

Is trading one target for another, and trading one interpretation for another really Spiritual Enlightment?

Or do we find ourselves merely trading one master for another?

28

The JW belief "death pays for sin"

by Chalam in

hello jwners,.

i was just reading doublelife's thread and what struck me was this jw doctrine "she said that since my dad died, he paid for his sins, and he'll probably be resurrected.".

so, why did jesus to die for our sins if we are just going to pay for them with our own death's?!.

Krettnawe

But doesnt Christiainty as a whole teach "you can only get to GOD through us"?

Out of all the religions of the world, Christiainty takes thier central figure and elevates him into a position that no other religion does.

The Buddhists have the Buddha, the Jews have Abraham, the Muslims have Mohammed. All these central figures are seen as enlightened by thier prospective followers, but in the end they are still seen as merely men.

Christiainty takes thier central figure and makes him... (dramatic pause)

GOD...

That's a pretty big jump that no other religion has ever taken.

Then add John 14:6, John 3:36, and 1 John 5:11-13 to the GOOD NEWS and guess what?

You definetly have a "only you can get to GOD through us" mentality.

The same exact reasoning the JW's use, the only difference is the umbrella of salvation is much smaller in their case. But, hey, if we are going to criticize one specific sect for dogmatically asserting thier interpretative difference over another, then we ought to step back and look at the bigger picture and realize that all religionists are by nature, dogamatic.

Without a certain degree of dogmatacism noone would idenitfy themselves as this religion or that religion. Without a certain degree of dogamticism we are all basically Theists...

So, how is the JW reasoning about them holding exclusive rights to GOD any different than Christianity's reasoning they have exclusive access to GOD?