just a quick question.. does anyone know what the wts had to say about judas' presence at the last supper, before 1935?.
(documentary proof would be nice, too).
this is one of the arguments that the wts uses to support only 144,000 partakers of the "lord's evening meal".. i'm of the belief that he was at the supper, had his feet washed and enjoyed the meal, but was sent away before the "new covenant" was established (so he missed the specific partaking of the bread and wine).
The society says that Matthew and Mark were eyewitnesses to the events but Luke wasn?t so he?s got it mixed up.
Stevenyc,
Luke made an error that he corrected. After all they did not have correction fluids like we have now. This is not unusual and shows that he was paying careful attention to this chronology. Luke therefore produced an accurate chronological record of the meal and demonstrated this fact.
Joseph
just a quick question.. does anyone know what the wts had to say about judas' presence at the last supper, before 1935?.
(documentary proof would be nice, too).
this is one of the arguments that the wts uses to support only 144,000 partakers of the "lord's evening meal".. i'm of the belief that he was at the supper, had his feet washed and enjoyed the meal, but was sent away before the "new covenant" was established (so he missed the specific partaking of the bread and wine).
By comparing Matthew 26:20-25 with John 13:21-30 we learn that Judas was not present when Christ instituted the Lord?s evening meal. One Gospel account tells some details that the other one does not tell, but by harmonizing the two the complete picture can be obtained.
Leolaia,
This Watchtower view is false which should surprise no one since the Watchtower does not understand Passover nor anything else dealing with this 7 day event. Harmonizing the accounts does not result in the conclusion they give here. John introduced the Passover meal but only covered events that occurred after the official meal ended and the New Covenant and emblems were already passed. John notably did not bother to cover events that took place during the official meal. They were adequately covered by the other Gospels and this argument over which one of them was the greatest occurred at least four times both before and after the New Covenant was inaugurated. Many sop?s were passed during this time, after all this a meal spread over a large area with many present. Such passing of a sop did not draw attention other than the specific one mentioned and no one else noticed anything special about it. Harmonizing the accounts reveals this fact so such a comparison that moves Judas in time cannot be made so simply as the WT does with it?s explanation. No exit by Judas appears in Matthew. Judas would not have left before the third and official cup, the cup of blessing, the same cup that inaugurated this New Covenant was consumed anyway. It would not have been proper for any of them to leave early and break with tradition. No one would leave until they were well into the fourth cup which concluded the observance and was consumed (over and over by the way) that evening. The constant bickering during this observance prompted the foot washing that took place at this end and this is what a true harmony will show.
Joseph
i know there are mostly ex jw's on here.
i just wondered how many of you are ex jws, left or df'd, how many are still in but have lost heart?.
are there any jws on here who still believe its all the truth, go to meetings and trust the organisation?.
Witness for 17 years. DF'd in 1980 for writing letters to HQ and asking too many questions they could not answer. Wrote the book Beyond the Watchtower published in 1982 detailing these letters and experiences. Available now for downloading on http://home.earthlink.net/~jmalik/
Joseph
one of the claims against the trinity that the wtbts makes is that "[s]ince the bible calls humans, angels, even satan, "gods," or powerful ones, the superior jesus in heaven can properly be called "a god.
in the old testament, the hebrew employs elohim to signify what the wt says above.
but it is interesting to note that psalm 82 (81 in the septuagint, and i will be using septuagint numbering from now on), in which the judges of israel are called "gods," is a satire.
Sorry Little Toe,
I am not the one that is upset. I do not have a problem with anything I stated here. I understand the Christian message and can recoginze it when I see it. Have a good day.
Joseph
one of the claims against the trinity that the wtbts makes is that "[s]ince the bible calls humans, angels, even satan, "gods," or powerful ones, the superior jesus in heaven can properly be called "a god.
in the old testament, the hebrew employs elohim to signify what the wt says above.
but it is interesting to note that psalm 82 (81 in the septuagint, and i will be using septuagint numbering from now on), in which the judges of israel are called "gods," is a satire.
I don't believe I've missed the Christian message, in my travels, but to my understanding it has no bearing on the Trinity dilemma at all.
Little Toe,
Of course it does. And this is why I responded to the take on 1 John 5:7. I also demonstrated why this is the case. Your question was general in nature and not specific to this text so there was no need to bother with it. Even so I answered it.
Simply stated Christ was not God Almighty but a real Human Son of God. His Sacrifice was accepted by God in behalf of all humanity. And this sacrifice is the basis for all future human existence here on earth in a Kingdom ruled by this Human Christ with the power to raise such humanity to life here on earth once again.
Joseph
one of the claims against the trinity that the wtbts makes is that "[s]ince the bible calls humans, angels, even satan, "gods," or powerful ones, the superior jesus in heaven can properly be called "a god.
in the old testament, the hebrew employs elohim to signify what the wt says above.
but it is interesting to note that psalm 82 (81 in the septuagint, and i will be using septuagint numbering from now on), in which the judges of israel are called "gods," is a satire.
Little Toe,
Did you miss it? The message in total misses the point of this thread but this foundation is the basis for all the rest of it.
Joseph
one of the claims against the trinity that the wtbts makes is that "[s]ince the bible calls humans, angels, even satan, "gods," or powerful ones, the superior jesus in heaven can properly be called "a god.
in the old testament, the hebrew employs elohim to signify what the wt says above.
but it is interesting to note that psalm 82 (81 in the septuagint, and i will be using septuagint numbering from now on), in which the judges of israel are called "gods," is a satire.
On a point of note, what IS the Christian message, to your mind? I fail to see how it may be distorted by this single passage/gloss.
Little toe,
Concerning this gloss the Christian message is not the existence of three Persons that make up the nature of God. Such a message is Antichrist and not truth. Because of this teaching most believe we will become non-human beings at death and go off somewhere else to exist for all eternity. The real message is as John stated:
1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.. . . 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
Eternal life does not mean we must undergo a change in nature as non-humans. This same truth that we are to proclaim includes the fact that Christ will return here to rule as a Human Being.
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
So it is at such a time and at such a place that we will exist and be like Him.
Joseph
one of the claims against the trinity that the wtbts makes is that "[s]ince the bible calls humans, angels, even satan, "gods," or powerful ones, the superior jesus in heaven can properly be called "a god.
in the old testament, the hebrew employs elohim to signify what the wt says above.
but it is interesting to note that psalm 82 (81 in the septuagint, and i will be using septuagint numbering from now on), in which the judges of israel are called "gods," is a satire.
Little Toe,
You will have to ask WT witnesses that question. At the moment this is the only one that caught my interest. There are many variations of texts that deal with much more than just hell. But not all such variations distort the Christian message as much as this one.
Joseph Malik
one of the claims against the trinity that the wtbts makes is that "[s]ince the bible calls humans, angels, even satan, "gods," or powerful ones, the superior jesus in heaven can properly be called "a god.
in the old testament, the hebrew employs elohim to signify what the wt says above.
but it is interesting to note that psalm 82 (81 in the septuagint, and i will be using septuagint numbering from now on), in which the judges of israel are called "gods," is a satire.
Imac,
Sorry but 1 John 5:7 did not mention the Father or the Word as you are teaching here. You are teaching and supporting a textual gloss added by others. What John really said was:
5 And who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? 6 This is the one who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. 7 And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is the truth. 8 For there are three that bear witness, the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. [NAS]
Notice that John already identified the Spirit as the truth. Therefore his statement simply states this simple truth.
The Spirit [the truth of the prophetic message given in scripture] water [our baptism and dedication to proclaim this message] and the blood [the sacrifice of Jesus that validates this covenant] all agree as the basis for our faith in this salvation.
This was a simple message, not some mystic description of trinity as some teach.
one of the claims against the trinity that the wtbts makes is that "[s]ince the bible calls humans, angels, even satan, "gods," or powerful ones, the superior jesus in heaven can properly be called "a god.
in the old testament, the hebrew employs elohim to signify what the wt says above.
but it is interesting to note that psalm 82 (81 in the septuagint, and i will be using septuagint numbering from now on), in which the judges of israel are called "gods," is a satire.
Joseph.It sounds like you're going down the route of the Mormons.
LITTLE TOE,
I doubt it. But what does it matter? Only that the scriptures support what I say.
Joseph
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