imputation is the concept that we are all sinners because of the original sin of adam.
and our only redemption is found in the sacrifice of christ on the cross/stake.
imputation implies that guilt passes from person to person from generation to generation, and redemption is passed from christ to us.
Robar,
Well the Jews should get a chance to rethink their theology in the Kingdom. But this is a root text and we can plant our feet in it. All the illustrations that came later to show the permanency of such an outcome are just that. Scary perhaps some using fire that destroys but scary is what losing such life is to most of us anyway.
Joseph
imputation is the concept that we are all sinners because of the original sin of adam.
and our only redemption is found in the sacrifice of christ on the cross/stake.
imputation implies that guilt passes from person to person from generation to generation, and redemption is passed from christ to us.
The concept defies all reason. It makes no sense at all.
lillith26,
Well it does make perfect sense but only if one realizes that life is sacred to God. To us it may simply be just life, something we have and most likely just happened naturally, no big deal, but not so to God. We have no right to do with it as we please and it can be taken away from us. Ge 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. What is called sin is this life that sinned against God that now has been passed on to all human beings. We all have it in common from its original source Adam. The life promise to the human race will come from a source other than Adam's which God appointed to perform this function so as to restore the creations original purpose.
Joseph
jesus god or not?
is this a salvation issue?.
what is all this commotion about?
Deputy Dog,
Then you are like me, we only have ourselves to blame. That is how it should be.
Joseph
jesus god or not?
is this a salvation issue?.
what is all this commotion about?
I think you need to ask, how does "a sincere Christian" get into the wrong group?
Deputy Dog,
I have and the answer is simple. They are like Adam and if things do not work out then they have someone else to blame.
Joseph
jesus god or not?
is this a salvation issue?.
what is all this commotion about?
Is a sincere Christian from the incorrect group doing something wrong? Will Jesus/God overlook their error?
bluecanary,
A sincere Christian can indeed do something wrong, just like some of the Apostles did for years. Such error will not be overlooked and was not overlooked in their case since they were corrected with the selection of the Apostle Paul. And this is not the only example given in scripture of errors made in the faith by them. Jesus will reject the evil slave at His coming and will not overlook their errors. But Jesus will try first to correct them if possible the way He did for His own Apostles both before and after He left. And the Apostles tried to do the same thing to the Church with Paul doing much of it. If they refuse such correction then they are not the sincere Christians you think they are. Nice people perhaps but misinformed and mislead. After all we have this promise from Him. Lu 21:14 YLT ‘Settle, then, to your hearts, not to meditate beforehand to reply, 15 for I will give to you a mouth and wisdom that all your opposers shall not be able to refute or resist. How under such circumstances can a sincere Christian be in the incorrect group? Does anyone really believe what our Lord promised or are they simply adamant in supporting the theology or their church group?
Joseph
jesus god or not?
is this a salvation issue?.
what is all this commotion about?
Or how many mistakes in your understanding the of bible will God tolerate before he pulls the plug of your salvation making all your worship of him is in vain?
Frankiespeakin,
The problem with this question is that the answer is a variable and not fixed as you suggested here. For example, your salvation or anyone’s salvation for that matter may become dependent upon other factors instead of what you or they understand and/or what they teach. Additional time may be given to some after their resurrection in the Kingdom to correct such misunderstandings if their life qualifies otherwise. This would mean that your or their position in the Kingdom may be as part of the general population instead of the Saints. We should not confuse such a salvation of humanity with texts that deal only with faithful ones that are found acceptable to our Lord as his disciples and are Justified or Saved as a consequence. Christianity consists of a mixture of all sorts and a weeding out process is promised for all mankind, Christians included when our Lord returns. In a simple statement our Lord identified the faithful and said: Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Such commandments do not include Watchtower ones especially the ones that deny Christ to their followers. Such commandments do not include teachings or wording that our Lord did not support personally or authorize his Apostles to teach. If you find yourself in a situation where such commandments of our Lord are violated, then get out. Expose the errors and move on down the narrow road instead. Jews had to do that very thing by giving up the Law and their Talmud as a means of their salvation, no simple task for them. Mt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Yes there is a limit and it is not that difficult to find. This is what disciples do in obedience to the words or our Lord: Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Joseph
a short while ago, i offered the scan of a 1902 book from echo publishing called an exposition of matthew twenty-four.. .
with the great work by a dear friend, i am now able to offer the scan with much improved scans of the pictures, and the file has bookmarks and is searchable.. .
this updated scan is available at:.
This fixation on the verses of Mark and Matthew is largely the reason why the false teaching of an invisible presence is taught by the WT and others before them. Luke discusses the same thing for his readers but because Luke words things differently they are interpreted differently. Yet all three Gospels are based upon the writings of Daniel that our Lord discussed with them and by putting all four accounts together we get a better picture of what our Lord was teaching them. Now we no longer see an invisible presence but a brief period of preparation before this presence takes place and the resurrection of the dead that also takes place at that time. We also know what to ignore as well. The Apostles knew this for our Lord taught: John 7:33 Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me. 34 Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come. Ye cannot come meant everyone, the Apostles, disciples and everyone else that would find themselves in this Kingdom and this is why our Lord had to return visibly once again in the flesh to administer it. Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Now for reasons not explained the Apostles much later after some 40 more days of instruction regarding this Kingdom thought that the brief period of our Lord’s death and resurrection was enough of a going away to fulfill such verses in Daniel. They said to our Lord: Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. Once again this reminded them of His teachings and their question was responded to in a dramatic way. Our Lord demonstrated to them that these times and seasons were yet future as taught originally but the return when it took place it would be visible, in the flesh back here to this earth and it would be at such a time when our Lord would restore the Kingdom to Israel as they understood it. He would be here to stay for a long time and take up the promised throne of David. Lu 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: This is when and where they would be with Him also.
Joseph
can someone help me here?.
maybe narkissos or laolaia can help?.
.
The Christian believer cannot read this section, as Watchtower followers do, and apply the third person pronoun: "they" "them" to the text. Either you read it and believe, or you don't read it. But to read it and apply it opportunistically, and selectively, simply because of a precognitive requirement of Watchtower theology is to make a mockery of the Word of God.
Moggylover,
This is true. The Watchtower does not understand Justification which is what Paul is discussing or who should participate in taking the bread and wine. This is a subject that is far more important than the resurrection, something that the rest of the world or the Nations as they are called are also promised. But to make themselves big shots so that they can exercise control over your lives they apply such texts only to their higher ups. This is apostasy on a grand scale on their part. It dwarfs all the doctrines they accuse Christianity of corrupting put together. The one thing that I would change in your post would be the creation mentioned. Instead of applying it to the universe, I would limit it to humanity, all humanity through history in fact. Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. Our Lord came only to redeem the creature, whole creation, humanity as we call it now, and this humanity shall be delivered just like the liberty the children of God enjoy.
Joseph
in the late 1960s and early 1970s, i wrote my study, 1914 and all that.
in it, i stated that at matthew 24 jesus warned his followers against seeing wars, earthquakes and famines as being signs.
i have not wavered from that position, which i have given in my posts here at times.. .
No Spike! Jesus cannot start to rule until he returns as promised. And Jesus has not returned yet. We still wait for the promised Kingdom of Israel to be restored. Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. What the Watchtower teaches is Antichrist. Invisible presence is a false teaching. It is not found in scripture. I call it a lie, and apostasy of the worst kind. Christ is not only coming but Christ is coming in the flesh. Not invisibly but visibly to stay here for a long time and restore the Kingdom to Israel as promised. As I said before, anyone that can read can see this for themselves.
Joseph
in the late 1960s and early 1970s, i wrote my study, 1914 and all that.
in it, i stated that at matthew 24 jesus warned his followers against seeing wars, earthquakes and famines as being signs.
i have not wavered from that position, which i have given in my posts here at times.. .
Doug Mason,
You are correct. Anyone that can read and does not live in fear of so called religious leaders controlling them should be able to see this. And using these verses to judge the WT's false interpretation of these verses is also correct That is what we should all be doing as disciples.
Joseph
