Posts by Julie

93

"Mire of atheism..."

by Julie in

jw
friends

:i welcome those of your quality of character and refusal to sink into the mire of atheism or deep cynicism, .

i found these words to be so interesting.

i have seen posts (albeit few) that discuss the bible and whether or not it is of god.

There is little I can say to you (not that that will deter me) as you live in a happy little place that I couldn't penetrate in a million years, not that I even care to. I have no desire to try to change your beliefs. I will comment on a few things you said and then give you a brief explanation of my overall view.

First, and most importantly, I was never a JW. I am not quibbling over baptism, I merely "studied" with them. Every week I learned more and more that made no sense to me. For one as simple as you imply I happen to have at least been bright enough to know bullshit when I see it. I never even went to a Kingdom Hall except once for a Memorial (which I thought was utterly ridiculous) so you know what you can do with your assumption on that matter. FYI, I was a Catholic and went to Mass pretty regularly while I studied with JWs. I do not look at the bible with the view of a "jilted lover". As a lifelong Catholic I can assure you I knew little of the bible and as I said in an earlier post (pay attention here WW) my faith had never, repeat never, been anything but a source of comfort to me. So I approached the whole thing with the attitude of a believer who was certain (like you) that those who claimed the bible to be not of God were just mistaken/misguided.

As for your claim that I am a member of the religion of "self", again you are shameful. WW you know nothing of my life. I have experienced more horrible lessons than I care to remember but I have learned and grown from them. First and foremost in my life are my children. Compared to my feelings for them I care nothing of myself. If you want to claim any shred of human decency you will step off with your presumptions of me and my life friend. You don't want to go there because I could share things with you that would make you ashamed of your comments. Suffice to say you were mistaken in your assumptions and you need to refrain from anymore of that about me.

While I don't know a lot about physics I don't believe that is a prerequisite to being able to reason. I think I have a pretty good ability to do this, like I said I didn't fall for the WT-cult's shpeel and that was with little/no bible knowledge. I am hoping you are intellectually honest enough to admit that is pretty good.

As to all that blather you posted, it was a mighty handy little way to avoid addressing those scriptures I posted and wanted explanations for. Sure you try to explain away genocide and do some wonderful gymnastics in order to accomplish this. I must deem your effort a failure though as I still think it is inexcusable. I want you to address the scriptures I posted.

I wasn't being dishonest nor was I hedging at your question of whether I think that maybe there was some influence of man on scripture. My answer reflected the fact that I think the bible is entirely influenced by man. Pretty plain IMO but I suspect you have an aversion to simplicity.

Here's the real scoop WW--I came into this whole thing when some JWs knocked on my door. I started to learn about the bible and was a little disappointed when I read more than the happy little sections I always heard in church. I looked into it. Now here's where it gets simple so try not to be disappointed.

I read story after story of violence, hatred and horrible injustice. I start to wonder why these things would be in a book of instruction, or guidance, from God. In just about every book I look for enlightenment and find none. I see things that are worse than some of the horrible movies out today. I am appalled. Nowhere do I see encouragement for education to use these wonderful brains God gave us. I see nothing about how to improve the world we were given to enjoy for our lifetimes. I see superstition, not knowledge. Nowhere do I see encouragement to strive to realize our full potential as humans. I see a horrible disregard for human life, like the scripture that tells us that if we have a rebellious child we should take him to the elders and stone him. I mean how barbaric is that? I also notice that the OT is rife with genocide etc, by "God's people" and then in the NT we are suddenly all God's people. Well which is it? Cannot God make up his mind?

I did not approach the bible with the view that lengthy, "scholarly" explanations are needed to accompany it in order to understand it. I didn't need such to understand the WT is a crock of shit and I was right. I read the bible, I understand what I read and I am convinced that God could have done waaaaaaay better if we were intended to have a Rule Book. Just as the Turner Diaries served as a wonderful instruction manual for Tim I-am-a-lunatic McViegh, I think the bible has served as a fine example for many who have committed atrocities "in the name of God" (i.e. the Crusades).

I am not one to overly complicate things. There is no need to do so. If the bible is God's word than I should think you could open it to any page and find enlightenment but instead we find quite the opposite. I mean look at the lengths you went to to try to explain away the atrocities in the bible (not the ones I mention of course, you pick your own as there are so many to choose from). I suppose there are many folks on the planet who can excuse away the terrorist attacks on America yesterday too. Horror is horror is horror. You can dance all you want but I can tell you that the nastiness in the bible is just that. It isn't high-brow nastiness that the masses are incapable of understanding--it's just plain old barbaric behavior.

You said:
I can tell you why I believe it is the word of God. I cannot prove to you that it is. Belief comes from within.

That is the most honest thing you said WW. There is no proof the bible is of God and no matter how many books I read about the bible there is still no proof. I see quite the opposite actually but you already know that.

Maybe there is a God, I do not claim to know. I merely reject the assertion that the bible is of God. Does that make me not as good as one who does believe so? No but many hold that view. You yourself said believing in the bible is a faith thing, not a factual thing. Fine I accept that and hold no grudge against those who believe. I DO have a problem with those who are critical of me and people who share my views. We merely see the horrors in the bible and reject the idea that there is anything divine there. When I see snide remarks directed at those who hold such a dissenting view I feel the need to make a point.

So hey, if you can just go ahead and justify/explain/spin those scriptures I listed I might just change my view. Until then, I will remain where I am; Merely appreciating the gift of life I have without the haughty presumption I am entitled to more.

Respectfully--
Julie

93

"Mire of atheism..."

by Julie in

jw
friends

:i welcome those of your quality of character and refusal to sink into the mire of atheism or deep cynicism, .

i found these words to be so interesting.

i have seen posts (albeit few) that discuss the bible and whether or not it is of god.

Julie

Hi Borgfree--

For all your self-criticism about lack of education you are so worthy to have such a discussion. You are honest about your views and you apparently have the conviction that enables you to not demand a halt to such discussion.

Compared to some (I won't mention names) you are a giant among men/women. I admire your honesty and conviction and respect your right to your views. I am not out to dissuade anyone of their views/beliefs, just hoping to remind certain view-holders they are not "better" than others, regardless of their delusions.

Thanks for your honesty--
Julie

3

Athiests with a Social Conscience?

by ChuckD in

jw
friends

something said on another thread got me thinking about the assumption that many people have that religion is somehow a prerequsite for charity.

i think that it is quite the opposite.

for example, rather than believe that god told me to help out my fellow man, i feel that there is no god, and therefore it is everyone's responsibility as a person to do charitable deeds, since god isn't going to set anything right himself.

Julie

Amazing--*applause*

Fabulous post.

Julie

9

Colin Webster on God's existence (Hey Julie!)

by Rex B13 in

jw
friends

here is an article that deals directly with questions that an honest, searching person might ask.

(roger carswell questions and answers from the bible; ambassador publications pg 40).

Julie

*LOLOLOLOL*

You think a bunch of testimonials from people who hold your view will convince me of anything? Have I been pontificating about science? Have I even asserted there is no God? No. I have merely stated that I don't believe, as you assert, that the bible is God's word. You make the aqssertion you prove it.

Now go and answer my post you gutless coward or lose what little credibilty you have.

Julie--who wonders why some bothered to leave the WT-cult

93

"Mire of atheism..."

by Julie in

jw
friends

:i welcome those of your quality of character and refusal to sink into the mire of atheism or deep cynicism, .

i found these words to be so interesting.

i have seen posts (albeit few) that discuss the bible and whether or not it is of god.

Julie

Well, well, it seems Brother Rex is quite upset.

>>To see some Good Christian up here pounding his chest and >>announcing that some are above the Mire of Atheism makes me want to >>demand answers and explanations. How can anyone reconcile the >>horrors in the bible with an all-loving, all-knowing God?

>"The horrors" are in parts of the Jewish history. You did not live >there, you do not have enough facts to judge anything.

Actually Rex, I thought the bible was suppose to be a Factual Account of the Jewish history. I merely base my assertions on the material available, like you. I mean if you and I both have the bible to work from on this matter, what makes you qualified to deem it God's word and what would disqualify me from deeming it nothing it to do with God? If I believe as you do would that then "qualify" me?

:>Some of it is a mystery! BTW, what great religious idea turns your >crank. Why don't you enlighten us all with some N.O.W. version of >God and a life in heaven?

You poor soul. The thought of mortality frightens you and I can understand that. No religion "turns my crank", I think it is all nonsense. I am grown up enough to cope with the fact that this life is likely all there is and so I try to live it instead of wasting it counting on the next.

>>I guess they've got balls like churchbells when it comes to >>criticizing those who don't believe as they do but they are all >>veritable eunichs when it comes to proving their beliefs are based >>on sound reasoning.
>>Marvelling at those who are stuck in the Mire of Christianity--
>>Julie, who is sure she'll get no satisfactory explanations THIS >>time either
>You haven't read a single book on my list that I keep giving out >here. So you say you are seeking answers? PROVE IT. Start with 'Mere >Christianity' by C.S. Lewis and then we'll walk you through the >rest.

You don't know what I have read or what I haven't. How dare you presume to know anything about what I have read? And as far as C.S. Lewis is concerned, I am quite familiar with his work and I would recommend to you (since I don't presume to know what you have read) his book The Great Divorce. I don't need you or anyone else to walk me through anything.

And here's a little FYI you are in serious need of: The one making hte assertion (i.e. 'The bible is God's Word") is the one who has the burden of proof.

>What good does it do to chime in with a topic like this in a >forum >like this unless you are grandstanding?

Believe it or not Rex I am no publicity hound. I prefer a low-profile personally but I am sickened from time to time by the self-righteous, closed-mindedness of believers and, as I am pretty sure this is a public forum, I felt compelled to offer a few thoughts and felt free to do so. I didn't realize there was an unwritten rule that only those who agree with Rex are allowed to post and only those people have pure motives.

>Where did you do your Bible research, Atheists Online?

Did you read my post Rex or couldn't you make it all the way through once you realized I don't share your views? I formed my opinion on the bible by using (hold on to your hat--this may come as a shock) the bible. That's right Rex. I didn't read a bunch of books by people putting their own spin on what the bible says, I read it and saw for myself. I am a big girl. Fully capable of thinking all by myself.

>Oh, I know, >you are a fan of Jan H., Alan F., Norm H. and Kent. Are >they your guideposts for all of your beliefs?

You don't know shit about me. As I said, I formed my own opinions. I will tell you this. Once, when reading children's bible stories to my daughter, we covered some atrocity. Though it had been cleaned up a bit for children it was still brutal. My daughter says "That doesn't sound like God's people to me!" Just a child. She sees much clearer than many adults, as most children do. You want the truth? Ask a child.

:>BTW, what kind of 'tidy explanations' would you expect when all we >have are sketchy details about the events in question?

Oh I don't know Rex. They seem pretty detailed to me. Take the story in Judges I have posted here before. How the lady drove the tent spike through the guy's temples while he slept. That is a pretty detailed account. In the next chapter, where there is a song of praise for this sick deed, it is again recounted in great detail. I don't want "tidy explanations" to anything. I was never a JW so I never got used to "tidy explanations" being handed to me without having to form a single thought of my own. An advantage I seem to have over many ex-JW (like yourself for instance).

>Do you think that the writers of the different books of the Bible >took dictation from God? Might their be a 'human element' factor in >all of the inspired writings?

*lol* I don't think God had anything to do with the bible.

>For example, we have a barbarian world where a bedouin nation is >trying to survive in a land surrounded by enemies. They deal with >those enemies in a ruthless fashion just as any of us would if >placed in similiar circumstances!

There is an example I would like to share with you. Back when John was king of England, there was big trouble (like always). Seems John's nephew Arthur had ideas about winning the throne for himself. He and all his buddies from Brittany and other parts of France go take over a town at an early stage in the campaign. They take it easy and sleep like babies at night. The English find them asleep at their posts and sneak in and re-capture the town without shedding a drop of blood. Easy-peasy. How come simple humans can pull off such a bloodless battle and yet the All-powerful biblegod has to order much slaughter in order to give "his people" the lands he promised them? Pathetic.

>One of your problems is that you think you are actually better than >the people of 3000 years ago. None of us are any better and we are >just one big disaster away from a return to this kind of life. Do >you realize that?

Wrong again Rex. I happen to think that the people of 3000 years ago were no better than us. They aren't some chosen people receiving Divine Guidance anymore than the WT gets New Light. I think we are all just humans prone to violence and superstition, just like the Old Testament Jews. Some of us are honest enough to admit our mortality, some of us cannot deal with it. One is not better than the other though it seems to me that those who refuse to think mortality seem to think a little higher of themselves just because of their views. Sad.

>None of us are 'good' because our comparison is with Jesus and not >with other humans.

I see. Are you a Devout Follower of Jesus? Do you "give no thought to the morrow" as he instructed? Do you not work so you can afford to eat tomorrow? Do you maintain shelter in case inclement weather comes tomorrow? Or do you "give thought to the morrow"? How about the instructions of being a good person, and doing worship AND (now here's the kicker) leaving all your material goods behind to follow him? Do you live a life of poverty devoting your time to spreading the Good News? This is what Jesus supposedly said is required to be a perfect follower. So how devout are you really Rex?

>Furthermore, how can you expect to understand a being that is not >even bound by time?

Time is a man made concept. Apparently this Being you refer to isn't even up to human decency.

>How can you be so arrogant as to demand answers that you aren't >capable of understanding? Really, none of us alive today have close >to enough facts about the O.T. dispensation period to make any >judgement at all.

I see. So you haven't the facts to make a judgement? Yet you are judging me (in fact you seem to think you know me very well) because I don't believe the O.T. to be from God. I am growing weary of your double standard.

>Another problem that you have is you expect God to have attributes >that are pleasing to you and you ignore the rest.

You are so incredibly presumptuous. You have no idea what I expect or what I ignore.

>God is merciful, loving (enough to live as a man and die in agony, >bearing our sins and offering salvation freely), just, vengeful, >HOLY; which means, 'set apart' or 'unlike' any other.
>None of us are 'good' because our comparison is with Jesus and not >
>with other humans.

For all your self-righteous blather I haven't seen one atrocity explained or justified. Pick one of the countless examples in the bible and tell me why I should consider God merciful. On second thought, with how slippery you are on the matter, I will name some specific scriptures for you to explain/justify/spin.

Daniel 6:24 What did the wives and children of Daniel's accusers do? Why were they slaughtered also? If that's mercy I will take heartlessness any day.

2Kings 2:23,24 Is this how we treat children acting like children?

1Chronicles 21:14 70,000 people die by God's hand because David to a census. I fail to see the enlightenment here. Maybe someone as all-knowing as you can explain it to simple little me.

>Until we are saved by accepting Christ, we are no more than objects >of wrath, enemies and rebels against God. Like it or not, the Bible >has the only explanation that fits the events of the world that we >live in. The evidence that God walked the earth in the person of >Jesus Christ is so overwhelming as to be an open and shut case. His >resurrection proves 'every jot and titel' of the Bible, regardless >
>of WHO likes it's contents.

Do you know what "proof" means Rex? The only account of the resurrection is the bible and I think we can count that as biased. I know I don't consider my own children "enemies and rebels" unless they think as I want them to. I guess I am a better parent than God, or at least more loving.

>Anyone who believes they will get to heaven by 'being a good person' >or that 'all religions lead to the same place' are sadly ignorant of >just what the Bible teaches. ONLY a personal relationship with >Christ will give anyone salvation, regardless of all other factors >or ideas.

Grow up Rex.

>God created us.

So what's up with the tail-bone thing?

>God numbers our days.
>God calls us (or not) to serve Him, otherwise none would serve Him >because of our fallen nature.

Or maybe enough people fear the vengeful biblegod that they see no other choice but to worship, lest they suffer as "God's enemies" did in all those heartwarming bible stories.

>Rex, who marvels at the lengths people will go to avoid any idea >that they can be held accountable!

Quite the opposite Rex. I don't believe in your biblegod and I don't blame him for anything. Not the state of the world today or the condition of my life. I alone am reponsible for my failures and successes, as we all are. Seems to me it is believers that attribute EVERYTHING to God's will, not their own actions.

Julie, who looks forward, with great anticipation, to Rex's well thought-out, reasonable response.

19

British History Lessons

by Utopian Reformist in

jw
friends

i desparately tried to avoid this thread about anglo & american superiority.

i truly did, until i read the "poppycock" about the british war efforts in the last century.. perhaps anglophiles should refresh their ancient and modern memories a bit before launching such laughable tirades of triviality and supposed triumph.. first, did not the english employ mercenaries during the battle of hastings to win the 100 years war?

(since "expatbrit" is correcting me--i am modifying this)-- excuse me for my trivial error).

Julie

Oh come on, in all fairness everybody used mercenaries (except Willliam the Conquerer at Hastings *lol* ). What I want to point out to all you history buffs is poor Harold. I think Harold Godwinson is short-changed in the credit department. It is remarkable he was able to fend off Tostig and his Viking buddies and it is no small wonder he wasn't able to turn around right away and beat back the Normans. He made a remarkable effort but of course his failure changed England forever, likely for the better, but I still give the guy an A for effort.

Julie, who feels bad for unsung heroes and even the unsung almost-heroes

100

So, okay you 'christians', what does God REALLY

by AGuest in

jw
friends

i would exhort you to first ask... and then listen... to the master's voice on the matter, and if you cannot 'hear'... or exercise faith in what you 'hear'... then go to the 'scriptures'.

for indeed, it is 'written'... in the scriptures.

it is not, however, 'written' in the letters, histories, chronologies and gospels.

Julie

Judges 4:21
And Jael the wife of Heber proceeded to take a pin of the tent and to put the hammer into her hand. Then she went to him stealthily and drove the pin through his temples and beat it into the earth while he was fast asleep and weary. So he died.

Judges 5:24-26
Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite will be most blessed among women, among women in the tent she will be most blessed. Water he asked, milk she gave; In the large banquet bowl of majestic ones she presented curdled milk. Her hand to the tent pin she then thrust out, and her right hand ot the mallet of hard workers. And she hammered Sisera, she pierced his head through, and she broke apart and cut up his temples.

My question is: If I drive a tent spike through the temples of some guy's head can I too be "most blessed among women in the tent"?

Looking for the easy, albeit messy, way to salvation--
Julie

93

"Mire of atheism..."

by Julie in

jw
friends

:i welcome those of your quality of character and refusal to sink into the mire of atheism or deep cynicism, .

i found these words to be so interesting.

i have seen posts (albeit few) that discuss the bible and whether or not it is of god.

Julie

Hi Borgfree--

:I have arrived at some conclusions and have remained Christian. I do not know why God ordered the killing of men, women and children, including infants. I have been taught reasons 'why' some of those reasons make sense to me, some not so much sense.

I don't have a problem with this. If you are OK with worshipping a God who's into genocide that's your thing. All I ask is for believers to understand how some people might think such behavior very un-Godlike and hardly worthy of worship. I have a serious problem with Christians who think themselves more superior/righteous than someone who thinks God wouldn't condone/commit such horrible atrocities.

:I could repeat my statements above about a lot of 'why did God' do this or that. As humans we are faced with some realities. If God exists, we can question all we want, we can accuse Him all we want, etc. But if He exists then what? Do we say, 'ok God I will not believe in you, I will believe that you do not exist!' Does that change the outcome? Wouldn't that way of thinking just punish ourselves.

I suppose I could trun the question around. What if God does not exist? Look at the resources wasted, for what? Who profits? And if God does exist and it turned out to be the God of the bible I would have plenty to say before I left the presence of such a hateful being.

:For my reasons, by research, and much bible reading I believe in the God of the bible. I believe that I cannot understand some things that He does, but I believe He has asked us to have faith for a few short years of our life and be obedient to Him and He will give us an eternity of blessings we cannot even imagine.

Ah, the Hook, Eternal Life. I understand how this is such a desirable concept. During a recent discussion with a believing friend of mine, after all arguments were exhausted she finally shared her very child-like, but essential, reason for believing, "I can't stand the idea of my grandma not being in heaven."

I appreciate your honesty on this issue Borgfree, I respect your views and wish we could all somehow be more respectful toward views different than our own.

Seeker, you rock. Thanks for your input.

I appreciate reading everyone's thoughts on the matter. I was truly hoping that some of the believers here who seem to have reached rather lofty heights in their righteousness would reply. I guess they actually don't have a whole lot to say afterall.

Take care all--
Julie

93

"Mire of atheism..."

by Julie in

jw
friends

:i welcome those of your quality of character and refusal to sink into the mire of atheism or deep cynicism, .

i found these words to be so interesting.

i have seen posts (albeit few) that discuss the bible and whether or not it is of god.

Julie

Greetings to all:

:I welcome those of your quality of character and refusal to sink into the mire of atheism or deep cynicism,

I found these words to be so interesting. I have seen posts (albeit few) that discuss the bible and whether or not it is of God. I have seen assertions made that the bible portrays God as a homicidal maniac and these assertions are almost always backed up with scriptures. I have never, I repeat NEVER, seen one credible attempt to discredit these assertions. Back when I was one who thought the bible was God's word (as in before I read it, after all I was Catholic)) I always hoped that someone who knew more than me would step up and prove how wrong those who had sunk into the Mire of Atheism were.

I am sure I don't need to tell you that it never happened. I investigated for myself and found that indeed They (those wretched atheists) were right, we (the righteous believers) were wrong. Mind you I reached this realization after serious contemplation and brutal honesty. It pained me greatly. Religion had never been anything but a source of comfort to me (mind you I never joined the WT-cult).

To see some Good Christian up here pounding his chest and announcing that some are above the Mire of Atheism makes me want to demand answers and explanations. How can anyone reconcile the horrors in the bible with an all-loving, all-knowing God?

My main point here is that many who believe the bible to be a man-made book of terrible tales reached that point after honest consideration of the material. As I have never seen credible explanations excusing the brutality and contradictions it leads me to believe that all our Good Chritian posters turn a blind eye to the ugliness and/or dismiss it as a "mystery" or some such nonsense. I guess they've got balls like churchbells when it comes to criticizing those who don't believe as they do but they are all veritable eunichs when it comes to proving their beliefs are based on sound reasoning.

Marvelling at those who are stuck in the Mire of Christianity--
Julie, who is sure she'll get no satisfactory explanations THIS time either

43

Goodbye, and Thanks For All the Fish......

by Prisca in

jw
friends

dear all,.

it is with much regret that i have decided to leave jw.com.

it is not a decision i have made lightly, in fact i had been thinking about it for many weeks now.. i am leaving because i cannot be a part of a forum that condones abuse and deliberate offensiveness towards other posters.

Julie

Hi Prisca,

I am sorry to see that the language here bothers you so badly. I must say that your assertions of being the delicate lady who just can't bear such ugliness doesn't carry much credibility when you post things like:

:(((((((((tinabel)))))))) how are you hun?
do you mind if I borrow your wig for the Gay & Lesbian Mardi-gra? I also might need to borrow some of your make-up - I normally wouldn't wear those colours but the trannies do. hope you don't mind, I'll return them after the party.
thanks hun

What a small-minded attack. Normally I don't have a problem with rough-and-tumble posts but when a woman says or does something that is so small and so bitchy it irritates me. It makes us all look bad.

When I see that others say:

:with Christian love from
someone who admires and respects your
fine example over here,
Derrick

Well all I can say is I am no Christian and damn proud of it.

Best of luck in life with your double standards, you'll need it--you might fare well in Washington DC--I hear it's a good time there now for Good Christians like yourself--
Julie