I think the WT would say that the "great crowd" of Revelation 19:1 are angels, and therefore is not identical with the "great crowd" of Revelation 7:9. I believe I read this years ago in the book, "Babylon the Great Has Fallen - God's Kingdom Rules," but I no longer have this book on hand. If the latest commentary on Revelation is available, perhaps someone could tell us what that has to say.
Justin
JoinedPosts by Justin
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52
WT U-Turn on "Great Crowd" (May 1, 20...
by stevieb1 inthe following is taken from questions from readers p.31 of the my 1, 2002 watchtower.
it is the wt response to the question: "when john saw the "great crowd" rendering sacred service in jehovah's temple, in which part of the temple were they doing this?".
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Jews for Jesus
by nativenyr23 ini've done a little research since leaving the wts and am having difficulting sorting out what i really believe in.
after some studying of different faiths and their doctrines, i find i can relate to the jewish faith....but i do believe in jesus.
so i found out about this faith called jews for jesus.
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Justin
I think "Jews for Jesus" is the name of a specific ministry which evangelizes Jews. The larger movement you'd be interested in is known as Messianic Judaism, and there are plenty of websites you could consult.
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The courtyard and the holy city in Rev 11
by Smitty inis the courtyard the same as the holy city in rev 11?.
quote:(niv)rev 11:2 - "but exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the gentiles.
they will trample on the holy city for 42 months.
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Justin
The temple is in heaven. "Then the temple of God was opened in heaven ..." (Rev. 11:19) The "outer courtyard" is on earth, or else it could not be trampled upon.
The temple is also the Holy City. John says, "I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple." (Rev. 21:22) But the Holy City, being heavenly, has a representation on the earth in the "outer courtyard." That's why the forces of Gog and Magog "surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city." (Rev. 20:9) So the "outer courtyard" is the holy city in its earthly manifestation. The three and a half years correspond to the time that the Syrian tyrant, Antiochus Epiphanies, defiled the temple of Jerusalem in the 2nd century BCE and provided a prophetic type that was to be re-enacted in the end-time. So that final period of persecution is represented as three and a half years, whether it is literally of that length or not.
So the "outer courtyard" is the holy city, but it is not all that there is to the holy city.
Justin
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memorial season
by sleepy inwell memorial season is upon us again.
(the witnesses like to think of one day as a season).
the jehovahs witnesses have by and large bypassed crazy ceremonies, but something that started off as almost sane has turned to the bizarre.. on the 28 march around the world groups of witnesses will be passing a glass of red wine , and a plate of unlevened bread amongst each and every person in attendance .if you are lucky, you may spot a witness nervously sip the wine and nibble the bread, but most likely the wine and bread will be left untouched.. what a crazy thing to do.. does the bead and wine really need to be passed between all people present (sometimes numbering into the hundreds) when the witness belief is that only 1444,00 have ever been able to partake?.
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Justin
Yerushalyim,
It is amazing how they calculate the Passover to fall on a different date than the one the Jews actually observe. I found out that the Bible Students this year will be celebrating on March 26, and so will Garner Ted Armstrong. It's almost like the bias that was inserted into Christendom's calendar at the time of Constantine, so that "Easter" (which was originally called "Passover") never comes at the same time as the Jewish Passover. But in the case of Christians who deliberately celebrate on Nisan 14, you would think that their celebration would fall at the same time as the Jewish one does.
I have also wondered why the Jews today consider the week following Nisan 14 to be an extension of Passover, instead of simply the feast of unleavened bread as in the Torah, and why they feel free to have other seders (passover suppers) on any of those nights instead of limiting this to Nisan 14. Would you have an answer for this?
Justin
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WT U-Turn on "Great Crowd" (May 1, 20...
by stevieb1 inthe following is taken from questions from readers p.31 of the my 1, 2002 watchtower.
it is the wt response to the question: "when john saw the "great crowd" rendering sacred service in jehovah's temple, in which part of the temple were they doing this?".
quote.
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Justin
ozziepost,
No, when I refer to WT history I use their own categories - specifically, what classes were originally thought to exist and how this came to be changed to today's classes.
Justin
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Governing Body, starting to doubt themselves?
by taoInitiate ini was thinking.... anyone who receives a large amount of criticism starts to doubt themself eventually.. so, unless the governing body is receiving power from another source (eg.
heaven, and most of us here would doubt that), then i would think that they have to start to doubt themselves.. for example, the wizard of oz, i'm behind this curtain here, pretending to be powerful, but i'm really just a frail old man, who has no special power.
my influence is a sham.
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Justin
It's a mystery to me how they get anyone new on the writing staff. Suppose someone had been a devout JW for years, worked their way up through the ranks, and then were admitted to the writing staff and found out all the things that have turned us off. How can such a person stick with it rather than becoming deprogrammed?
Justin
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WT U-Turn on "Great Crowd" (May 1, 20...
by stevieb1 inthe following is taken from questions from readers p.31 of the my 1, 2002 watchtower.
it is the wt response to the question: "when john saw the "great crowd" rendering sacred service in jehovah's temple, in which part of the temple were they doing this?".
quote.
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Justin
Frenchy,
I think you are correct that the original "great crowd" came from people who were already interested in the "truth" in some way. The ones who already believed they were of the second heavenly class, though, would have already been baptized. This class would have been considered to be "cast offs" from the "little flock," and people who were less zealous, or else very humble, may have believed that they belonged to this class. When the earthly hope was held out to them, they simply stopped partaking of the emblems.
Another class of people were those who showed some interest but, because they never did get baptized, would have been considered the "Restitution Class" in Russell's time. In other words, they did not want to run for the heavenly prize, so they didn't run for any prize at all but simply waited with the world to be restored to human perfection under the Kingdom. Rutherford changed all that, and they got baptized.
What the WT has never admitted is that many stopped partaking of the emblems once the "great crowd" was identified as earthly. I remember an elderly sister telling me this. Also, there is a chart in the "Proclaimers" book which indicates a rapid drop in Memorial partakers when the "great crowd" was identified. Someone should do some research on this and see if there is any hard evidence that can be recovered for historical purposes.
Justin
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New Dates to help WTS
by Amazing innot that anyone would want to help the wts shore up its prophetic speculations, and continue to perpetrate their fanciful but idiotic schemes ... nevertheless ... in an effort to salvage their biblical dreams, and escape their current embarassments and false prophecies, one might see them in the near future pull off something like the following.. you eyes might glaze over ... but this is short:.
the 2nd temple was started by zerubabel in 517 bc and completed and dedicated in 515 bc.
the wts could easily make this 2nd temple a symbolic 'anti-type' representing the renewed, rebuilt condition of 'spiritual israel' the anointed 144,000 ... and then take the 2,520 years spoken of by daniel, from the date of the dedication of the 2nd temple, and voom ... boom ... flash ... zap ... we arrive at 2005 ad for the establishment of the 'completed and dedicated' spiritual anti-type temple in heaven ... to eventually be occupied by the temple class.. add to this, the walls of jerusalem, built to protect the city outside the 2nd temple and its people, were not completed until 445 bc ... this commenced the 70 weeks until the messiah would arrive, according to daniel.
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Justin
The question is, Who belongs to the Laurel class and who belongs to the Hardy class? We need Freddie to come back and figure this one out!
Justin
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Can a JW PLEASE answer my question on baptism?
by Sunspot inwitnesses always strongly state that they strictly follow the commands of jesus and all bible principles.. i have such an important (to me, anyway) question that i would appreciate a meaningful answer to:.
at matthew 28:19, jesus issues a direct command to his followers, that being: "go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing then in the name of the father and of the son and of the holy spirit".
why doesn't the wbts then follow this command, which has never changed, and taken it upon themselves to add to and alter what the bible clearly states on this?.
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Justin
The obvious understanding of Jesus' words is to perform the baptism "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit," actually using these words. That's why it's known (other than in JW land) as the "baptismal formula."
But, from what I remember, the WT explanation goes something like this: JWs believe in a Father, a Son, and a holy spirit. However, the relationship that exists between these is not the same as the relationship outlined in the doctrine of the Trinity. So, if JWs explain to the baptismal candidates what the "true" relationship is, the baptism in fact is taking place in the name of the Father, Son and holy spirit without actually using the baptismal formula. This explanation is supposedly given at the talk preceeding a mass baptism at a JW convention (assembly).
I personally do not remember if this is what is actually stressed at all the baptismal talks. Perhaps it is, but if so, it is simply one point among others (the primary one being that the candidates are dedicating themselves to Jehovah [and don't forget the organization!]).
Maybe there's a "live one" out there who will let us know if this is the WT's current teaching.
Justin
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If Russell Were Alive Today He'd Be DF'd For
by Dutchie ini was just thinking that if charles taze russell were alive today he wouldn't even recognize the religion he started.
in fact, many of the things he did are now disfellowshippable offenses.
for instance, he had a christmas tree in the bethel home and he wore a beard.
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Justin
Just a point about Russell and Jesus as Mediator:
Like the WT today, Russell taught that Jesus could only be the "mediator" in a covenant relationship between God and his people. One would think that Russell would teach that all Bible Students were under the New Covenant because they all had the heavenly calling back then. But this was not the case. Particularly from 1909 onward, Russell taught that the New Covenant would be initiated with natural Israel after Armageddon - that the Church was never under the New Covenant. (Some scholars claim Russell always believed this, but merely re-emphasized it in 1909. The original prophecy about the new covenant, in Jeremiah 31, does appear to have a Jewish context.)
So, Russell reasoned, if the Church is not in the New Covenant, Jesus could not be the mediator for the Church. (Instead, he would be the "intersessor.") Well, this caused quite a stir, as there were Bible Students then who were just as offended at the thought of Jesus not being their mediator as some of the "other sheep" are offended today. This resulted in what is known as the "New Covenant Schism" - the breakaway from the WT of Bible Students during Russell's own lifetime to form a separate group. These people's descendants are still around today as the "Free Bible Students," and they stopped using the SCRIPTURE STUDIES way back then!
Of course, today the WT teaches that the spiritual Israel (the Church, the anointed class) is under the New Covenant, that natural Israel will not be restored after Armageddon, and that the majority of the current JW's (who are "other sheep") are still not under the New Covenant. What has remained consistent is the reasoning that the mediatorial role of Jesus only exists within a covenant, and that those not in the covenant have a different legal relationship to Jesus, and hence to Jehovah.
Justin