ZeusRocks

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Posts by ZeusRocks

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  28

  What came first? Atheism or the "apostasy" in JW terms?

  by Silent_Scream in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  for those who are atheists: did you become an atheist while being a jw, then left, or did you not view them as the true religion and left, but still believed in god/bible, but later turned to atheism?.

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  ZeusRocks

  Apostacy only came 2 years after I stopped going to meetings. Atheism came within 4 weeks after that. Once I found out the lies of the Watchtower I just kept researching everything including the bible itself. Well, the rest is history.
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  78

  Atheism or Agnosticism, which one is correct?

  by Joey Jo-Jo in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  this has been bugging me for a while, and while i dont want to turn this into something about semantics i think that we should quickly define what an agnostic and atheists are.. richard dawkins defines 7 different types of atheist ranging from weak to militant atheists, but along these definitions there appears one definition with a strong resemblance to agnosticism.. to me an agnostic is a person who neither believes nor disbelieves in deity/deities, but there are those who define agnostics as a ignorant who simply just don't care or don't have the intelligence to come to sound conclusion.. an atheist can be a person who disbelieves in a deity/deities based on the current mathematical and scientific understandings of the universe, as well as understandings that can refute certain religions such as the strong influence of protestantism christianity in america.. .

  from here i will refer deity as anything ranging jehovah to a real spaghetti monster, it's not important because a) we dont know b)for the purpose of this discussion it is not important to define what we believe god to be.. an argument that can be used about a deity is -we cannot prove nor disprove that god exists- this is referred to as a null hypothesis, an assumption that we cannot create a hypothesis to prove or disprove this deity.

  this to me is agnosticism and is more correct than the idea of atheism.

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  ZeusRocks

  Hey Cyber...Yeah I know. These conversations always end up as twisted word games because of some weird aversion or fear of the word atheist.
  Oh also, thanks Zid and Cyber for you comment.
  I personally aren't really into labels, as when people ask if I believe in god I just say no. If they asked if I am atheist, I would just say yes and whether they think I just disbelieve in a god or believe there is no chance of there being a god...well, that's their problem not mine. Agnostic doesn't even enter the mix of whether I believe or not because it's a different kettle of fish.

  If they pushed what they think it is, I just go tell them to go to the dictionary and look up what the "a" before "theist" stands for, just like asexual, amoral, atypical, asymmetrical and then come back and tell me I take a positive position on the non-existence of a god. If they did, well then I would perceive them as being willfully dishonest and discontinue the conversation.
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  78

  Atheism or Agnosticism, which one is correct?

  by Joey Jo-Jo in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  this has been bugging me for a while, and while i dont want to turn this into something about semantics i think that we should quickly define what an agnostic and atheists are.. richard dawkins defines 7 different types of atheist ranging from weak to militant atheists, but along these definitions there appears one definition with a strong resemblance to agnosticism.. to me an agnostic is a person who neither believes nor disbelieves in deity/deities, but there are those who define agnostics as a ignorant who simply just don't care or don't have the intelligence to come to sound conclusion.. an atheist can be a person who disbelieves in a deity/deities based on the current mathematical and scientific understandings of the universe, as well as understandings that can refute certain religions such as the strong influence of protestantism christianity in america.. .

  from here i will refer deity as anything ranging jehovah to a real spaghetti monster, it's not important because a) we dont know b)for the purpose of this discussion it is not important to define what we believe god to be.. an argument that can be used about a deity is -we cannot prove nor disprove that god exists- this is referred to as a null hypothesis, an assumption that we cannot create a hypothesis to prove or disprove this deity.

  this to me is agnosticism and is more correct than the idea of atheism.

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  ZeusRocks

  So by your logic, if I asked you - Have you stopped beating your wife? you could only give me a yes or no answer

  That kind of question has nothing to do with the subject of belief. I'm not talking about asking someone about beating their wife. I'm talking about belief. You either believe the proposition of a god (theist) or you don't (atheist). That's it. You're not being asked if you know whether there is a god or if a god is knowable or unknowable.
  Theist and atheist has to do with belief or disbelief, Honestly, how hard is that to comprehend. You might like to say your agnostic, but that says nothing about what you believe, it's just a stance of a claim of knowledge.

  If you are in a current state of disbelief in the proposition of a god, you're atheist. You can add agnostic to it if you want to just make clear that you're unsure if there is a god or not, but you either accept the proposition of a god (theist) or you disbelieve it at this point (atheist).

  Just to emphasize once again.

  Theist / Atheist: Someone cannot be both - To do with what you believe or don't

  Gnostic / Agnostic: Someone cannot be both - Claims to knowledge

  Mix and match between the 2 different categories to your hearts content but someone cannot be both within each.

  Besides, questions do exists that can only have a yes or no answer. If you cut off someone's head, will they die? Yes or No. There's no...maybe. Can you survive without oxygen? Yes or No. There's no...maybe. Do you believe in mermaids? Yes or No. There's no...maybe. Do mermaids exist? That's the question that has the option to say...well maybe, I'm not sure.

  People can class themselves as agnostic all they want, but it doesn't say what they believe, they could Agnostic Theist or Agnostic Atheist, then we would know if you believe in the proposition of a god even though you're not 100% or don't believe in the proposition of a god even though you're not 100%.
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  78

  Atheism or Agnosticism, which one is correct?

  by Joey Jo-Jo in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  this has been bugging me for a while, and while i dont want to turn this into something about semantics i think that we should quickly define what an agnostic and atheists are.. richard dawkins defines 7 different types of atheist ranging from weak to militant atheists, but along these definitions there appears one definition with a strong resemblance to agnosticism.. to me an agnostic is a person who neither believes nor disbelieves in deity/deities, but there are those who define agnostics as a ignorant who simply just don't care or don't have the intelligence to come to sound conclusion.. an atheist can be a person who disbelieves in a deity/deities based on the current mathematical and scientific understandings of the universe, as well as understandings that can refute certain religions such as the strong influence of protestantism christianity in america.. .

  from here i will refer deity as anything ranging jehovah to a real spaghetti monster, it's not important because a) we dont know b)for the purpose of this discussion it is not important to define what we believe god to be.. an argument that can be used about a deity is -we cannot prove nor disprove that god exists- this is referred to as a null hypothesis, an assumption that we cannot create a hypothesis to prove or disprove this deity.

  this to me is agnosticism and is more correct than the idea of atheism.

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  ZeusRocks

  If someone asks you if you believe in god or a god, and your answer is no, then you are atheist. You cannot answer this question with "I don't know". You weren't asked whether you know a god exists or not, the question is whether you believe a god exists.

  I guess in a nutshell

  Category 1: Theist or Atheist....someone cannot be both

  Category 2: Gnostic or Agnostic......someone cannot be both

  You can mix and match between Category 1 & 2 if you really feel the need, but if someone asks you if you believe in god, you cannot state that you are agnostic as that has nothing to do with the question being asked.

  Unless you believe in a god, you're atheist.
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  59

  What exactly are men at the back of the hall taking care of?

  by howdidtihappen in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  once people have come in, and the doorman and the mic men are in place, why are there a few other suits scattered about at the back?

  i saw a guy get up, sit down, get up, sit down, get up and when i looked what he was up to he was reading the noticeboard and looking around, waiting for a bus.

  i figured he wasn't doing much at that point, but anything to not stay seated.

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  ZeusRocks

  Keeping an eye on the restrooms to make sure there's no hanky panky going on.
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  116

  Definition of Atheist

  by ZeusRocks in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i've noticed on so many threads people misrepresenting what and atheist is.

  so hopefully anyone who is so inclined can view this clip to get it a bit of clarity on the definition, so others don't have to constantly repeat themselves and correct uneducated assertions on what atheism is.. enjoy.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bt1wdnrkllq.

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  ZeusRocks

  So you admit it's a presupposition?

  No. You obviously don't even know what presupposition means. Learn the meaning of words before you start using them.

  What I do believe has nothing to do with me being an atheist.

  You're seem to be comfortable in your ignorance and have no interest in honesty or what is accurate.
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  116

  Definition of Atheist

  by ZeusRocks in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i've noticed on so many threads people misrepresenting what and atheist is.

  so hopefully anyone who is so inclined can view this clip to get it a bit of clarity on the definition, so others don't have to constantly repeat themselves and correct uneducated assertions on what atheism is.. enjoy.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bt1wdnrkllq.

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  ZeusRocks

  You keep forgetting YOU are the one redefining atheism, with this myth of neutrality.

  WRONG!!! I honestly cannot comprehend your complete ignorance and dishonesty.
  Do you believe in a god? Yes - Theist......No - Atheist. Atheist says NOTHING about what I DO believe.

  The old definition works just fine for me.

  Then you obviously don't care if what you believe is true or accurate.
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  116

  Definition of Atheist

  by ZeusRocks in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i've noticed on so many threads people misrepresenting what and atheist is.

  so hopefully anyone who is so inclined can view this clip to get it a bit of clarity on the definition, so others don't have to constantly repeat themselves and correct uneducated assertions on what atheism is.. enjoy.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bt1wdnrkllq.

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  ZeusRocks

  This is getting to the heart of the debate. Most people who want to call themselves "atheists" don't want to admit they have a bias or a presupposition. They want to claim "NEUTRALITY", something I believe to be a myth, and I believe they are fooling themselves.

  This isn't getting to the heart of anything. You simply won't accept the actual definition of atheist. You're the only one fooling yourself. The statements you make regarding what YOU think an atheist is, shows only your complete ignorance in the matter.

  Being an Atheist, Agnostic or Theist has nothing to do with burning in hell. I believe there will be people from all 3 camps in hell.

  If someone believes in a literal hell and thinks anyone would deserve to go there, then that is inhuman and completely immoral.
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  93

  Christianity gives you.........umm.......uh.............................................?

  by Terry in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  that's right, nothing.. you get struck on the cheek and you pony up for the other slap.. your pray for the enemy who wants you face down in the mud with his heel on your neck.. you get treated like pond scum and force a smile and forgive.. abused?

  forgive and forget.. need help desperately?

  when nothing happens, chalk it up to your unworthiness and lack of faith.. .

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  ZeusRocks

  My point is that in Canada, the vast majority are religious or faithful and we have very low crime rate.

  I didn't single out any countries. The data collected simply shows that a high percentage (not all) of countries that are the most peaceful, are countries that have a higher percentage of people that either do not hold a religious belief or do not consider religion important.

  The link is correct. If you feel it is incorrect, take it up with the people who actually spend their time researching and compiling the data from 140 countries, 350 days of the year conducting interviews in excess of 1000 per day in the United States alone. I'm afraid your conclusion is coming only from a personal point of view, not on the actual attitudes of the population at large.
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  116

  Definition of Atheist

  by ZeusRocks in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i've noticed on so many threads people misrepresenting what and atheist is.

  so hopefully anyone who is so inclined can view this clip to get it a bit of clarity on the definition, so others don't have to constantly repeat themselves and correct uneducated assertions on what atheism is.. enjoy.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bt1wdnrkllq.

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  ZeusRocks

  So as an Atheist why are you having such a hard time admitting that you "BELIEVE" there is no God?

  Because the word atheist isn't about what someone believes.

  'a' - is from alpha, which is a negative prefix, 'without', 'no'
  'theos' - god or gods

  There is no positive in the original word we derive in english to word atheist. It doesn't get much simpler than that.
  I have no god(s), I am without god(s), and will remain that way unless there is any real demonstrable evidence that one exists.