i just read in the 10/11/2002 edition of the san francisco examiner that teresa graves died in a fire at her home in la.
she was 54. for those too young to remember, she was a fabulous comedienne on rowan & martin's laugh-in tv show [that also featured goldie hawn, ruth buzzi, lily tomlin, arte johnson, and many other great talents].
she also did a few movies, the last in 1974. that's about the time that she gave it all up to become a jw.. john w wirtanen
Hi All,
I just read in the 10/11/2002 edition of the San Francisco Examiner that Teresa Graves died in a fire at her home in LA. She was 54. For those too young to remember, she was a fabulous comedienne on Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In TV show [that also featured Goldie Hawn, Ruth Buzzi, Lily Tomlin, Arte Johnson, and many other great talents]. She also did a few movies, the last in 1974. That's about the time that she gave it all up to become a JW.
John W Wirtanen
... i'm usually one who responds to topics that interest me.
yesterday, i wanted to respond to certain posts, but needed to step back and wait until things became more clear to me.
i didn't use an attention grabbing subject line for this post [e.g., something referring to raymond franz, bill bowen, silentlambs] since my purpose was basically to express my feelings, whether or not anyone wanted to read them or respond to them.. i watched with bewilderment the recent accusations flung against raymond franz and the comments made by some supporting the accusations both here and on the yahoogroups email list.
... I'm usually one who responds to topics that interest me. Yesterday, I wanted to respond to certain posts, but needed to step back and wait until things became more clear to me. I didn't use an attention grabbing subject line for this post [e.g., something referring to Raymond Franz, Bill Bowen, Silentlambs] since my purpose was basically to express my feelings, whether or not anyone wanted to read them or respond to them.
I watched with bewilderment the recent accusations flung against Raymond Franz and the comments made by some supporting the accusations both here and on the yahoogroups email list. Deep within my "gut" I felt there was something wrong about the accusations. I couldn't find the support for them in what was presented by some in print. Since leaving the JWs I pay attention to my "inner voice". If something bothers me, I do not hold on to it with hope that my inner feelings are wrong. I spent far too many years in the JWs hoping that my inner voice was wrong. My inner voice said something was seriously wrong with this attack on Raymond.
I have never communicated with Raymond. In fact, I suspect he wouldn't approve of me since I am a gay man and I understand he is basically a conservative Christian. Yet, it was his fully documented books written without hate or an "axe to grind" that removed the "scales from my eyes" regarding the Organization. His books made it easy for me to disassociate without lingering fears that I was leaving "God's Organization on Earth".
I was one of the 125 that gladly marched with Silentlambs on September 27, 2002. When I heard of the planned march in the UK, I was seriously considering going. However, now with this recent sudden attack on Raymond and the subsequent apology [at least that was one good thing about this recent tirade of trashings], my confidence in the group is seriously shaken. It reminds me of "Dallas" with Bobby's death being only a dream --- "Ray's bad/Ray's good". Now, I don't know if any statement made on behalf of the Silentlambs is factual or a sudden brain fart which just smells up the place. The flip-flop of "bad Ray/good Ray" reminds me of the JW "tacking" logic of "new light", which basically is a series of 180 degree reversals of viewpoint repeated ad nauseum. Again, I believe the apology, while doing a "flip-flop", is good and welcomed. But, when will the next "flip-flop" occur?
I do support the principle of bringing out the dark secrets of the JW hierarchy to public view. I am sympathetic with those who've been the subject of child abuse as I know of one young woman personally who was sexually abused and of another who was physically abused within their respective congregations. But, I can only align myself with a group that conducts itself in a dignified manner. This recent outburst was not dignified.
Regretfully, I am going to pull away from the efforts of Silentlambs at bringing to light the JWs heinous crimes of repeatedly hiding child abuse. Anyway, they won't miss me that much as I've only done a few email postings on Yahoo Groups and attended tha march. It's also not that I am supporting the JWs, far from it. Rather, I inwardly now question supposed child abuse "facts" that are presented. The JWs have made an art of presenting "facts" to prove their various stances. However, the "facts" are often out of context or from authors of dubious authority. As a result, the underlying discomfort level with this recent attack on Raymond now casts doubt in my mind regarding future pronouncements.
I hope that Silentlambs continues to be able to expose the wrongs of The Society. I hope that they are successful in getting those who are guilty brought to legal action. I also hope that future thoughts/views/feelings are more carefully weighed before printing them. Otherwise, other supporters might also "jump ship".
John W Wirtanen
i haven't posted in a while... been very busy lately.
i am glad to be back though, i started reading the posts right away, and immediately felt comfort for how you guys are feeling, knowing i feel the same way.
not many of you know my story.... but for a quick run down... i'm a disf'd jw, for about 11 yrs now, i'm 28, disf'd at the tender age of 17... my mother and sister are still in the org... they only talk to me when they want to, it doesn't have to be an important event, life or death or anything.
Hi,
I DAd in March 1994. My uncle and aunt, both EXREMELY strong in "The Truth" at first kept limited contact with me [they were in Michigan, I'd moved to California with my JW mother, sister, and niece]. At the time my job had me traveling a lot and on cross-country trips I'd stop by their place, they'd put me up, and talk as if nothing had happened. They only wouldn't talk about "spritual" matters, which was fine by me as I'd had a "belly full".
Then, in May 1995 this abruptly changed after I told them of a new address and that I'd moved in with another man. That was too much for them and they cut off all communication other than an obligatory "thank-you" for gifts that I'd send them periodically. They'd never respond to my letters. So, I thought that I'd continue to be the "better person" and keep up any limited contact that I could do in the form of occasional gifts with accompanying cards or an occasional letter regarding my sister's condition.
Now, to put some perspective on what is going to follow. My uncle eventually became closer to me than my father. They'd both been friends in their 20s, my uncle was in "The Truth", my father was not --- if anything my father was an atheist. My uncle introduced my father to my mother and they got married. She also was a baptized JW at the time. YES, the JWs DID encourage members to marry "outside of the truth". When it became obvious to the JWs that, instead of bringing in a new outside member, the JW would often wind up leaving, they had "new light" and said only to marry in "The Truth". My parents divorced when I was 16. When I was 18 my mother had a stroke, my uncle stepped in, started studying with me, and I got taken in "hook, line, and sinker". He replaced my real father in my life [who was now very distant, he wasn't when he was at home].
Now, to the recent past. Around November 2000 I was surfing the 'net and came across a geneology site. I started plugging in various family names. When I got to my uncle's, I found out that he'd died on May 10, 2000 [May 10th was sensitive to me as it was also my now deceased mother's birthday]. I at first didn't believe it, but through cross referencing other sources finally accepted it as true. I became very angry. I'd sent a present to him and to her in October 2000 which she'd signed for. I didn't get a thank you for this last one. She obviously new that I was unaware of his death, otherwise I wouldn't have sent the gifts to her and him. Yet, she didn't even have the common human decency to AT LEAST let me know that he'd died.
After a few weeks of thinking about it, I wrote a letter to her. The intitial versions were quite scathing. The final version was just statements of fact: [1] I expressed sorrow about his death, [2] reminded her that I'd always kept her up to date on my disabled JW sister's condition, [3] that I'd found out from 3rd party sources about his death, [4] that as she didn't see fit to let me know about his condition anymore that I no longer felt comfortable keeping her up to date. From that moment on I ceased any gift-giving or occasional leters regarding my sister's condition.
I haven't regretted "closing the door behind me". In my opinion, being human to JW family members while being treated like dirt by them is too close to the JW theology of a wife subjecting herself to beatings by her husband on the hopes that maybe one day she will win over her husband. I'm not a doormat and won't put up with that twisted reasoning anymore.
This may sound cold. Anyone who knows me personally can vouch to my sensitive nature, in fact, often times too sensitive. But, as far as the JWs go, for this guy, I have no regrets in DFing from my life this JW family relation who ignored me [my sister, still officially a JW, I continue to support --- she's never done anything to warrant my cutting her off].
John W Wirtanen
for those of you who grew up in 'the troof', after leaving, did you find it hard or uncomfortable in any way to celebrate holidays and bithdays since you had no ties to them whatsover?
if so, how did you deal with it?
Personal reactions to Holidays:
Birthdays -- Love 'em.
Halloween -- My high Holiday of the year --- religious in nature [pagan], but that's probably why I like it so much -- Earth based spirituality vs. man made religiosity
New Year's Eve -- My second to high Holiday of the year.
Thanksgiving --- Yup, but even the Dubz celebrated that but would never, ever actually admit to it.
Nationalistic Holidays [4th of July, Memorial Day, etc.] -- Of course I love the time off, but I'm only into the spirit of the Holiday, not the letter. For example, honoring those who've given their lives [I hope that 9/11 is given consideration as a possible future Holiday] I'm fine with. However, if it gets to Nationalism, e.g., "my country right of wrong", definitely not, as that's too cult-like for me.
Christmas, Easter, --- no, no, no --- I don't mind the present giving, or parties associated with those times of year [but I can leave them as well], but the religious aspect of them leave me cold --- I don't like any reminders of Christianity and the problems that it has caused/continues to cause mankind. [I'm not singling out Chrisitanity, either. I view all organized religions as being essentially problematic to greater or lesser degrees.]
John W Wirtanen
i wanted to hear the president's speech tonight, but can't stand listening to the man.
he has a prepared speech but he keeps saying nuc-you-lar instead of nuc-le-ar.
i can't stand it.. you would think his people would walk him through correct pronunciation.
I personally cannot stand listening to either President Tush or Attorney General Asscroft.
John W Wirtanen
as i went about my wifely duties today, i had a thought and would like the imput from some former brothers and/or elders, ms, po, co's.. since leaving the borg, has the way you view your wife/companion/daughter/sister/mother changed?
let me elaborate.
while being brought up a dub, i was taught that women were in subjection.
First off, some of the roles that you mentioned for females [wife, significant female other] I don't relate to, being a gay man. However, I can address the issue as it relates to my grandmother [deceased while I was still a JW] mother [deceased after I left the JWs], sister, and niece. Also, female bosses as well.
While I was still a JW, the hard-ass attitude of the JW teachings regarding subjection of females really irked me. I remember one incident while I was a JW elder at a Circuit Assembly in the late 70s. My background was accounting/finance. My sister also was very business oriented, having been a bookkeeper as well as a statistical typist back in the 60s and 70s. I was in charge of the accounts and as such enlisted the aid of my sister in counting the money. Whoa!!! was that a problem for some JWs. They complained to the PO in my congregation and he said in essence that it wasn't fitting for my sister to be doing a job "obviously" meant for a brother. Of course, he didn't see any problem with his wife being a typist for the Assembly and seeing many confidential matters as that was "just" a secretary. I had to comply, but absolutely hated the stupidity of the Organization. I always had a problem with the "down with sisters" attitude which was always obviously or subliminally communicated to the congregation members both verbally and in print.
I also loathed any Assembly/Convention parts where some sister was featured for having been abused in all manner of ways and staying "true" to her husband just so "that in time, he may come around". BULLSHIT!!!
I believe that in part my attitude towards women [i.e., not feeling that I nor any other male was superior] while not verbally promulgated by me was sensed by the sisters in the Congregations that I attended. They often would approach me because they knew that I would listen and not be unfeeling or unsympathetic. Perhaps because I was dealing with my own issues of trying to fight my being homosexual, and of course not being able to speak about it, made me more sensitive towards females not being understand or appreciated.
Anyhow, for me, it was no real change after I left the JWs. In fact, I felt so much more free to give credit to women where credit was due.
As far as having a female boss, I don't believe that would be a problem. However, while I was still a JW, I did have a female boss who was one really messed up looney tune. Literally EVERYONE in my department felt the same way about her, male or female. So, I've been somewhat "scarred" by that experience. But, I don't really think that should the condition arise as to my reporting to a woman that I would have a problem with it.
JohnWWirtanen
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when i went to the assemblies, i would see people picketing, holding signs up, etc.
you would have "security" to look out for green bibles, and keep opostates out.. i never looked at them with hatred, never really gave it much thought at all.. i am curious if anyone here has participated in protesting the assemblies, and what were the reactions?
Our San Francisco chapter of "A Common Bond" [support group for gay/lesbian former JWs] has gone to several District Conventions, however, not to picket them. That is, we didn't throw "pot-shots" at them/their teachings or walk with signs denouncing them. We merely set up two vehicles, one attended, one unattended, with signs advertising our group's existence for any gay/lesbian JWs desiring support. The signs referenced a local phone number and our website.
The attended vehicle was on the side with mimimal [i.e., next to none] JW pedestrian traffic and the unattended one on the side that had heavy JW pedestrian traffic. The unattended vehicle had fliers on the windows for those who had interest. [Most of the fliers would be taken one-by-one from the time before the morning session start to the return after lunch, at which point we would leave the location.] JWs using the east approach to the parking lot easily saw both vehicles.
For those of you unfamiliar with the Cow Palace where the San Francisco Bay Area DCs are usually held, it's on Geneva Avenue --- a very wide thoroughfare. The sidewalk on the Cow Palace side of Geneva [where our unattended vehicle was] has heavy JW pedestrian traffic as the JWs go to and from McDonalds for breaks. The opposite side [where our attended vehicle was] has very little JW pedestrian traffic. So, a JW would literally have to, in most instances, go out of his/her way to get physically near to us. We did this to not be "in their face". Our sole purpose was to be of visible support to those in need.
Here's a link with pictures giving you an idea of our activity: http://www.gayxjw.org/streetwork.html [We didn't make a showing for this past summer's Convention.]
A humorous anecdote occurred one year. There was an elder from a local congregation who was friendly to our group's Webmaster, Jim Moon. Jim being in the ocean cargo transportation business would occasionally transact business with the elder. The elder was in the Organization for his family, he no longer plugged into the belief system. He relayed that one day, during the announcements, an elder gave the warning: "Brothers, there are homosexual apostates here passing our apostate literature." Firstly, we weren't "here". We did not set foot in the Cow Palace. Secondly, we were not passing out apostate literature. People actively took our fliers off the unattended vehicle if they wanted them, i.e., we did not pass them out. Can we spell "paranoia"? Anyway, they shot themselves in the foot with that platform statement. Prior to that, we were known to those who'd either walked by the unattended vehicle or saw us accross the street while on their way to McDonalds or to those who'd approached the parking lot from the east direction of Geneva thereby seeing either of our vehicles. Those approaching from the west direction of Geneva needed to turn into the parking lot far before being able to see us. So, their paranoid statement instantly made our presence known to all in attendance. Bravo, JWs!
how would you react if doctors come up with a test that could determine if your son would turn out to be gay when he grows up?
how would you react?
i personally, having two young sons myself, would not want to know.
I always roar with laughter whenever anything "gay" comes up for discussion. There are those who know gay people and understand that it's not a choice. Many on this list have observed that. Yet, there are also the numerable people who don't know any gay people personally and hold on to the old "choice" theory. These are either, IMO, people who are still JWs at heart, are part of some other fundie organization, or Republicans! Sorry, Log Cabin Rebublicans, if any, who may be reading this posting.
Bear in mind, that sexual activity does not equate with sexual orientation. I've known many ex-JWs who tried to "play it straight" only to ultimately leave the JWs and embrace their own sexuality. Also, if someone leaves gay sexual activity, it does not make them straight. It's who they are sexually attracted to that defines their orientation. Think for a moment: Before one is sexually active, if they are attracted to persons of the opposite sex, does that mean that they are not straight merely because they haven't had sex? The same thing applies for being gay: Merely not having had sex with someone of their own sex does not mean that they are not gay. The question is, who are they attracted to? Whether they act on it or not is an entirely separate matter. Ask any man who's gone through ex-gay "reparative therapy" and he will usually dodge the question regarding whether or not he is sexually attracted to men. His response to the question of whether or not he's arroused by men is frequently "I have a wonderful sex life with my wife", but, will never answer the question regarding interest in men. A lie detector test would expose him.
A few years ago the fundies had a poster child, John Paulk, who was an "ex-gay". He was found at a gay bar in the DuPont Circle area [very, very gay] of Washington D.C. BTW, his wife [who also had gone through reparative therapy] appeared to be among the butchest of Lesbians, IMO. See http://www.advocate.com/html/stories/825/825_paulk.asp
I've spoken with many gay men who've had straight girlfriends and/or marriages. When sked how they could perform sexually, the response [unless they were bi-sexual --- and based on my experience there are very few men who fit within this category, can't speak about the women] is that they sexually fantacized about men. A straight man would not do that.
As for me, I never had any sexual experience as a child or young adult, had a father present at home who took interest in me [i.e., not the JW stereotypical background that says causes one to be gay] yet always was attracted to those of my own sex. Life as a JW was one pure Hell. Once I accepted myself for being who I was and left the JWs, life became so much sweeter.
John W Wirtanen
Edited by - jwinsf on 8 September 2002 7:17:25
Edited by - jwinsf on 8 September 2002 7:18:58
Edited by - jwinsf on 8 September 2002 7:20:1
how would you react if doctors come up with a test that could determine if your son would turn out to be gay when he grows up?
how would you react?
i personally, having two young sons myself, would not want to know.
I always roar with laughter whenever anything "gay" comes up for discussion. There are those who know gay people and understand that it's not a choice. Many on this list have observed that. Yet, there are also the numerable people who don't know any gay people personally and hold on ;to the old "choice" theory. These are either, IMO, people who are still JWs at heart, are part of some other fundie organization, or Republicans! Sorry, Log Cabin Rebublicans, if any, who may be reading this posting.
Bear in mind, that sexual activity does not equate with sexual orientation. I've known many ex-JWs who tried to "play it straight" only to ultimately leave the JWs and embrace their own sexuality. Also, if someone leaves gay sexual activity, it does not make them straight. It's who they are sexually attracted to that defines their orientation. Think for a moment: Before one is sexually active, if they are attracted to persons of the opposite sex, does that mean that they are not straight merely because they haven't had sex? The same thing applies for being gay: Merely not having had sex with someone of their own sex does not mean that they are not gay. The question is, who are they attracted to? Whether they act on it or not is an entirely separate matter. Ask any man who's gone through ex-gay "reparative therapy" and he will usually dodge the question regarding whether or not he is ;sexually attracted to men. His response to the question of whether or not he's arroused by men is frequently "I have a wonderful sex life with my wife", but, will never answer the question regarding interest in men. A lie detector test would expose him.
A few years ago the fundies had a poster child, John Paulk, who was an "ex-gay". He was found at a gay bar in the DuPont Circle area [very, very gay] of Washington D.C. BTW, his wife [who also had gone through reparative therapy] ;appeared to be among the butchest of Lesbians, IMO. See http://www.advocate.com/html/stories/825/825_paulk.asp
I've spoken with many gay men who've had straight girlfriends and/or marriages. When sked how they could perform sexually, the response [unless they were bi-sexual --- and based on my experience there are very few men who fit within this category, can't speak about the women] is that they sexually fantacized about men. A straight man would not do that.
As for me, I never had any sexual experience as a child or young adult, had a father present at home who took interest in me [i.e., not the JW stereotypical ;background that says causes one to be gay] yet always was attracted to those of my own sex. Life as a JW was one pure Hell. Once I accepted myself for being who I was and left the JWs, life became so much sweeter.
someone emailed me interested in arranging a talk about witnesses:.
i'm a clinical social worker at a private.
non-profit mental health agency in baltimore md.
Hi Simon,
There's a gay/lesbian support group for ex-JWs in the DC/Balto area. Here's the link: http://www.geocities.com/commonbondeast/ma/
You'll see an email link for Beth Ann Miner. She's got a Masters degree in child psychology, and is also an ex-JW. She's a real sweetheart and very knowledgeable. I personally know many of the members there and Beth Ann can give you info and/or get you in contact with others.
I haven't tried that her email link recently, so, if it doesn't work, just let me know, give me your contact info, and I'll let her know. My email address is [email protected]
Bye,
John W Wirtanen
