undercover witness - I keep reading that Jehovah's Witnesses are in effect monsters. I keep reading that they kinda leave chaos and distrust in their wake. So I simply wondered if anyone had anything nice to say about them?
ABibleStudent
JoinedPosts by ABibleStudent
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Why I like Jehovah's Witnesses
by undercover witness ini keep reading that jehovah's witnesses are in effect monsters.
i keep reading that they kinda leave chaos and distrust in their wake.
so i simply wondered if anyone had anything nice to say about them?.
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ABibleStudent
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What I Saw & Heard in the Oral Argument Hearing on January 14, 2015
by ABibleStudent inim not an attorney and i could not record the hearing, so please forgive me if i make mistakes in relating what i remember of the oral argument hearing for jane doe (i.e., candace conti) versus the watchtower bible & tract society on january 14, 2015 and the length of this post.. i arrived at the civic center/union plaza in san francisco, ca about 7:30. the area is very nice with a few homeless people sleeping in the park across from the courthouse.
it took me about 10 minutes to find the clerks office for the court on the first floor, which opened at 8:00.. once the clerks office opened, the two clerks who i talked with were very polite and helpful.
the arguments for jane doe (i.e., candace conti) versus the watchtower bible & tract society were scheduled 5th out of (i think) 8. while i was in the office a cameraman and another person for nbc arrived asking about the hearing for candace contis case.. the courtroom for the 1st appellate court is on the 4th floor and takes up most of that floor.
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ABibleStudent
I’m not an attorney and I could not record the hearing, so please forgive me if I make mistakes in relating what I remember of the oral argument hearing for Jane Doe (i.e., Candace Conti) versus the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society on January 14, 2015 and the length of this post.
I arrived at the Civic Center/Union Plaza in San Francisco, CA about 7:30. The area is very nice with a few homeless people sleeping in the park across from the courthouse. It took me about 10 minutes to find the clerk’s office for the court on the first floor, which opened at 8:00.
Once the clerk’s office opened, the two clerks who I talked with were very polite and helpful. The arguments for Jane Doe (i.e., Candace Conti) versus the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society were scheduled 5th out of (I think) 8. While I was in the office a cameraman and another person for NBC arrived asking about the hearing for Candace Conti’s case.
The courtroom for the 1st Appellate Court is on the 4th floor and takes up most of that floor. Before entering the courtroom all electronic devices needed to be given to the California Highway Patrol officers (CHP) and then visitors go through an additional metal detector before entering the court. The courtroom was very nice with seating for over 100 people and a beautiful painted mural of Mount Whitney viewed from near Highway 395 in the Lone Pine Area of California.
Arguments were supposed to start at 9:00, but were slightly delayed because Justice Martin J. Jenkins was delayed due to a transit problem with the BART mass transit system. Justice Jenkins arrived after the 1st arguments were heard.
During all the oral arguments the presiding justice was very strict about allowing 15 minutes (in total) for the appellants’ attorney(s) to present arguments, 15 minutes for the respondents’ attorney(s), and then 5 minutes for rebuttal by the appellants’ attorney(s). It was up to individual attorneys not to exceed the total time allocation for each side. IMHO this format favors appellants over respondents and forces attorneys to focus on the 2 or three most important arguments only.
During the 1st four arguments for other appeals, the various justices asked a few insightful questions of the attorneys with their body language projecting thoughtful review and a familiarity with the issues and arguments being presented by the attorneys.
Associate Justices Stuart R. Pollak (presiding justice), Peter J. Siggins, and Martin J. Jenkins heard the oral arguments for Candace Conti’s case starting at approximately 10:55. Jon R. Williams argued for the appellate (i.e., the WTBTS) first for about 10 minutes and James M. McCabe argued for the Freemont Congregation second for the remaining 5 minutes of the allocated 15 minutes. Rick Simons argued for the respondent (Candace Conti) for 15 minutes with Kelly I. Kraetsch sitting next to him. After Rick Simons’ submittal, Jon Williams rebutted for a few minutes and then James McCabe for a couple of minutes.
From what I could remember and read from my scribbling notes, Jon Williams was a well-dressed lawyer who was unfazed by questions from the justices, had a plan to appeal the judgment, and executed his plan. Heck even his suit didn’t show wrinkles! Jon Williams made the following points:
- Separate punitive damages from criminal actions. The elders and Watchtower did not sexual abuse Candace.
- The Watchtower does not have a “special relationship” with the local congregation and is not responsible for how the elders conducted themselves.
- The 1989 BOE letter was a key defense that protects the Watchtower.
- The newly introduced nonfeasance theory (i.e., failure to act when action is required) by Richard Simons was not supported by evidence.
James McCabe was a kindly looking man in a wrinkled suit. James McCabe played the religious beliefs cards and stated that:
- JWs are just practicing their religious beliefs – not that JWs are pressured and indoctrinated to participate in FS and may be marked for not participating.
- There was no testimony or evidence that the elders specifically paired Jonathan Kendrick with Candace Conti. Putting Kendrick in the same group as the Conti family does not count.
- Candace Conti’s parents should have been responsible for protecting Candace from Kendrick. [My retort] Why didn’t the elders warn Candace’s parents about Kendrick, especially when the Watchtower and elders indoctrinate all JWs that “JWs are the kindest, most moral, most trustworthy, honest people in the world??!!
- Kendrick did not sexually abuse Candace while in FS but afterwards.
Based on their body language all of the justices were very interested in what attorneys for both appellants said. I almost thought that the justices knew that something was wrong with what the attorneys were saying but couldn’t put their fingers on it. Just like I knew something was wrong with the Watchtower’s propaganda and how JWs behave, but didn’t know how to prove it to myself until I read Steven Hassan’s book “Combating Cult Mind Control”.
I liked the actions of and questions from Justice Jenkins before and during the arguments. He left the courtroom and returned with an arm-load of papers weighing about 30 lbs before the arguments. He asked a question of attorney McCabe about the elder’s actions/inaction using an analogy about talking about a problem in a tent when the problem was with a camel that was outside the tent.
I really felt that the justices would affirm the judgment against the Watchtower until I heard the questions that the justices asked Richard Simons and his responses.
I don’t really remember much about what Richard Simons said. When the justices asked him questions, I did feel that he was like a fighter against the ropes and on the back of his heals. If he had a plan, his plan did not account for possible questions from the justices. The four most important things that I remember were:
- Simons said that the trial judge’s instructions to the jury about “protecting” Candace should by inference include warning Candace and her parents about Kendricks’ previous abuse.
- Simons said that it was obvious that the Watchtower was responsible for the actions of the congregation elders. [My retort] The WTBTS is very careful so it would be very difficult to show a significant amount of documentation during the trail to demonstrate a “Special Relationship”.
- Simons did not emphasize that the 1989 BOE letter that he introduce during the trail was a smoking gun about the special relationship between the Watchtower and the elders. [My retort] Why would the WTBTS write that letter in the first place, unless there was a reason to be afraid of liability and wanted to reduce it?
- When Justice Siggins asked attorney Simons about why the jury assigned the congregation 13% liability and the Watchtower 27% in the judgment, Simons responded that it was probably because the jury felt that there were inconsistencies with testimonies from Watchtower representatives. [My retort] Lucky break for Candace that the justice gave Simons a chance to address how WTBTS’s representatives behave.
Hopefully, the justices will agree with the trial judge’s instructions to the jury and trust the jury’s decision about the WTBTS’s liability being twice that of the congregation.
After the appeal was submitted approximately 30 people left the courtroom including Candace and Kathleen Conti; attorneys Irwin Zalkin, Alexander Zalkin, and Devin Storey; and Trey Bundy, an NBC investigative reporter. Candace Conti and Richard Simons went to complete interviews with the media.
I overheard Irwin Zalkin and Trey Bundy console Kathleen Conti to not to be concerned about the questions that the justices asked Richard Simons.
While waiting to retrieve my cell phone and laptop, I talked with Devin Storey for a couple of minutes. Devin Storey said that he learned a lot from listening to the hearing and was anxious about returning to his office in San Diego, CA.
After the hearing I went to the nearby Museum of Asian Art, had lunch there, called Barbara Anderson to let her know what I saw and heard, and then toured the Museum. I would really recommend seeing paintings by Tetsuya Ishida in the museum and on line.
After observing the oral argument hearing, IMHO future civil sexual abuse lawsuits against the Watchtower will need to either show an overwhelming amount of evidence that the Watchtower does have a “special relationship” over local congregations for juries (and appellate judges), and/or subpoena GB members. If GB members are subpoenaed, hopefully the Watchtower would ignore a court order or the GB member would behave like Freddy Franz did in a Scottish courtroom. Since the Watchtower is very careful about what it writes, the following information would probably need to be introduced as evidence:
- Time slip records of JWs to demonstrate how much control the WTBTS has over JWs,
- Emphasize that the WTBTS pressures elders to practice the “Two-Witness” Rule, contact the legal department before calling local police, and that JWs are indoctrinated not to bring reproach on the WTBTS. The Constitution guarantees that government is not allowed to infringe on an individual’s beliefs but can regulate an individual’s actions.
- Testimony from JWs/ex-JWs in a congregation about how they are influenced by Watchtower propaganda,
- Pertinent Watchtower and Awake! articles about shunning, going in FS, blindly following instructions by the GB and elders, that JWs are the most honest and trustworthy people in the world, etc.
- Testimony from experts about undue influence, BITE control, mind manipulation techniques, and affects of using thought-stopping platitudes.
- Any documentation from the WTBTS like the 1989 BOE letter that demonstrates how the WTBTS controls local congregations.
Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,
Robert
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Congregation that have sent in money!
by DwainBowman inin the past week, i have heard from a number of friends scattered all over the place.
a number of them are very upset over the congregation being required, to send in all monies over $4,000.
a number of these were kh's that were saving to buy land, and or build new kh's.
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ABibleStudent
The WTBTS isn't the only scammers. A Baptist pastor could be one too!
Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,
Robert
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2015 Predictions
by free2beme inwell, i got none right in 2014. dang it!
maybe i need to be a little more realistic and not predict so much with people dying, ufo sightings and so on.
but got to have fun.
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ABibleStudent
I think that at least 2 out of 3 of my 2014 predictions came true: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/262407/what-major-wtbts-change-do-you-predict-2014?page=1.
The WTBTS did start a tithing arrangement with JWs pledging to donate to support Worldwide construction and the WTBTS did increase its internet presences with internet TV and campaigns to direct people to JW.org . I may have been partially right about my prediction that the Watchtower will only print the simplified Watchtower/Awake! as the Watchtower is pressuring JWs to carry Ipads and distribute flyers directing people to visit JW.org instead of passing out literature door to door. Considering how JWs approach people while working propaganda carts, I doubt that JWs distribute many printed magazines anymore.
I think that there will be big changes to the WTBTS in 2015. I predict that the WTBTS will have a drop in publishers for 2015, unless the WTBTS reduces the qualifications for publishers from 10 hours/month to just counting publisher cards in a congregation or just dropping the metric all together.
I do feel that the outcome of the oral arguments for the WTBTS's appeal of the Candace Conti trial judgment, other litigation around the world, and greater exposure to the internet will cause many JWs to doubt the WTBTS and fade away.
I also hope that SOL reform legislation and introducing a bill in Congress in 2015 to revise the tax code for tax-exempt organizations to protect children from sexual abuse may cause more JWs to doubt the WTBTS.
Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,
Robert
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Eye-Opening Survey!
by The Searcher inmy wife said to me me that she'd really like to see a survey carried out on the internet, where active/attending witnesses only, could anonymously reveal that they privately celebrate the memorial and partake of the emblems.. what sort of figures would such a survey throw up?.
any chance of someone organising such a survey during the "memorial season"?.
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ABibleStudent
Instead of completing a survey, vote with your wallet! A survey allows a person to vent. Not donating to the WTBTS allows a person to vent, enjoy life more, and may be effect positive change in the WTBTS.
Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,
Robert
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2014 Watchtower Publisher Statistics
by jwfacts inthe 2014 grand totals page has been released onto facebook.. .
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i have started updating the statistics and graphs at jwfacts.com/watchtower/statistics.php, and will release highlights as i work through it during the rest of the day..
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ABibleStudent
I can hardly wait for 2016. I would guess that 7060 hrs/baptism will increase to > 10,000 hrs/baptism in 2015. I base my prediction on the WTBTS's transition to propaganda carts and using tablets, JW.org, the WTBTS's mantra of "Do more, donate more, and be blessed", the appellate court ruling for the judgment against the Watchtower in the Candace Conti case, more lawsuits, and of course more negative media coverage.
Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,
Robert
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User sign-in issues
by Simon injust a heads-up / status update - i'm still working on the issues so please don't think i've abandoned you if you still can't sign in and i haven't replied to your email.. i will get things sorted out and then we'll have the old gang back together.. thanks again to you all for your patience and perseverance while the teething problems are being ironed out.
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ABibleStudent
Thank you for working on the sign-in issues Simon.
I can only sign-in by requesting a password reset. I'm using Windows 7 and Google Chrome. I have tried to sign in using either my user name or email address, neither worked. The verification seems to work good. I have not been able to verify whether the stay signed in option works yet.
Regards,
Robert
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How do you overcome this JW excuse?
by EdenOne induring one of those meetings that took place before my jc, one of the elders, who was a good friend of mine back then and used to come up with a few outlandish personal views about some teachings, attempted to counter one of my arguments like this:.
eden - "well, if the truth doesn't change, why is it that what we teach as 'truth' has changed over the years (several examples given)?
how can we dogmatically claim at any given moment that we have 'the truth' if our teachings keep changing?".
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ABibleStudent
Hi EdenOne, How about mirroring back what your friend said to you so that he can listen to what he just said, and validating your friend's authentic persona's feelings when he says something that does not show blind obedience to the WTBTS?
What do you think of:
Are you saying that Jehovah has had to correct the coarse of the organization? If Jehovah has to correct the coarse of the organization and the organization says that the GB are imperfect men, then when do JWs know they are serving Jehovah or imperfect men?
In the November 2013 Watchtower Study Edition, the "Seven Shepherds, Eight Dukes - What They Mean for us Today", the Watchtower teaches, "All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not." How would you interpret that instruction? What if an elder came up to you pressuring you to do more or donate more to the Watchtower, would you, if it would reduce your family's welfare? Do you feel that Jehovah would want you to support the Watchtower at the expense of your family's welfare?
Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,
Robert
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Should I attend Kingdom Hall meetings to discreetly "preach"?
by CrytoJesus inchristians, should i attend kingdom hall meetings to discreetly "preach" to jws about the real jesus and the lies of the watchtower?.
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i plan to go undercover and plant seeds into them.. .
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ABibleStudent
Hi CrytoJesus, You probably were "love-bombed" and most JWs are very nice people. JWs will usually behave like drones when defending/explaining their beliefs. JWs are indoctrinated to research WTBTS's practices and beliefs by visiting JW.org, and not other internet sources.
Non-WTBTS-approved internet sources are controlled by "Satan" (the opposer) and therefore are unreliable. If you asked, I doubt that any "Spiritual Strong" (i.e., non-thinking) JW would visit much less believe a non-WTBTS website in your presence. For fun ask a JW to compare what www.jw.org writes about cults versus what www.familiesagainstcultteachings.org writes about unsafe groups. Ten to one they will not read the information about unsafe groups in your presence.
If they do read information about unsafe groups in your presence, see if they would watch the following four videos: How Big is the Phenomenon of Undue Influence? (2:01), The BITE Model (Behavior Information Thought Emotion) (5:03), What is the Strategic Interactive Approach? (4:21), Strategic Interactive Approach explained 2003 (1:23:23) . Ten to one they would be running from you after watching the fourth one because of two words. Replace those two words with Mormon, Scientologist, Moonies, or another dangerous cult and they would totally agree with what Steven Hassan says.
Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,
Robert
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Tell me what they are thinking or planning to do.
by LogCon inthis is the situation.. ten years ago two fleshly brothers and their wives, [ all are jw's and one is an elder] defrauded an elderly couple [ she was a jw/ he was friendly]out of the possession of their home and property.
one year after that, they took the life savings of the elderly couple and parked it in an account, without their knowledge.
when the old couple found out what happened, the four co-conspirators refused to return anything.
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ABibleStudent
Hi LogCon, If I were the JWs, I would try to shelter my money in off-shore account(s) that the Canadian government could not access, I would have my attorney investigate how seriously the local prosecutor's office pursues fraud cases, and research where and when I should move to another country.
If I were you, I would find out what ties the JWs have in B.C., what motivates the local prosecutor's office, what is the range of potential sentences for this type of fraud, and if convicted where would they serve their time. I would use all of the above information to pressure them to make restitution, as well as inform the police, local news media, and KH of their fraud.
Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,
Robert