Posts by rawe

28

Revelation, It's Grand Climax at Hand

by Cold Steel in

it's a rather large red book.. if i wanted to purchase one from a pioneer, how much would it cost?.

i'm reading a borrowed copy now.. thanks!.

.

rawe

Hi Cold Steel,

"They take literal prophecies and turn them into figurative ones;"

A fair amount of weight is given to Rev 1:1 that mentions it was presented in "signs".

"Revelation 11, for example, John is told to measure the third temple with a rod. . .that the Jews or Jerusalem has any part of the latter days."

Jehovah's Witnesses developed a frustration in regards to literal Jews, since early attempts to bring them the "good news" did not succeed. Thus, nearly all Biblical references to Jews, especially in the NT have become part of a "replacement theology" where literal Jews are replaced by figurative ones. The literal destruction of the temple in 587 BCE was big event in the minds of OT writers. Not too surprisingly the repeat of this in 70 CE would be a big item in the mind of Jews and Christian of the NT era. What did it portend? Would it be restored in some form in the future? These thoughts show up in Revelation 11 which echos Ezekiel 40.

"And all the pioneers are the fulfillment of those two prophets. It's all complete fantasy."

Of course it is -- but what else would you expect? Jehovah's Wtinesses are going to interpret Revelation in terms of happenings to their organization, despite how insignificant the organization is in reality.

"If the members of the WTBTS knew what crap this red book is, they'd be embarrassed."

In my experience most Witnesses are not deeply interested in this material. They are sort of awed by how "deep" it is and feel a warmth about how significant all these happenings were in the past. How brave those little band of Witnesses who were slaughtered and left in the broad way (Rev 11:8) but where then brought back to life by the spirit of God.

"The copy I have actually has notes in it, as though the reader was taking it seriously."

This book have been covered several times during the congregation bookstudy. Members are expected to pre-study the material before the 1 hour lesson in the group. The range of pre-study can be from none at all to fairly complete. But there is no need to say "as though" it is very likely the person who wrote those notes did in fact take it seriously.

"If people would just read the Bible and spend less time reading the publications, it might dawn on them that they're being bamboozled."

Those invited to the Bible School of Gilead (training for Witness missionaries) are encouraged to read the Bible through before arriving. There are a number of youtube videos by an Ex-Gilead graduate who talks about this exact effect. What it was like to read the Bible apart of "studying" it with the publications. Yes, indeed, an entirely different message can come through.

"David Koresch [Vernon Howell] did the same thing. He'd take one of the great kingdoms symbolized..."

Vernon's background was Seventh Day Adventist, which in some ways has similar origins and beliefs as the Witnesses.

Cheers,

-Randy

28

Revelation, It's Grand Climax at Hand

by Cold Steel in

it's a rather large red book.. if i wanted to purchase one from a pioneer, how much would it cost?.

i'm reading a borrowed copy now.. thanks!.

.

rawe

Hi Cold Steel,

"If I wanted to purchase one [Revelation! It's Grand Climax at Hand!] from a Pioneer, how much would it cost?"

In most countries, no specific amount is suggested[1]. Instead the household is told they can make a small donation to cover the cost of printing and support the world wide work of Jehovah's Witnesses. In terms of obtaining literature, a full-time preacher (pioneer) or ordinary Witness (publish) can both bring you this book, if you ask when they visit. You can also go to a Kingdom Hall and ask the the literature counter and if they have one on hand, they'll give it to you.

Keep in mind, most Witnesses will see this as an indication of your interest in the faith and will designate you for a RV (return visit) with the hopes of starting a "Bible Study" (not really a study of the Bible, but instead a indoctrination process) with you.

Cheers,

-Randy

[1] Other JWN members may be able to confirm this, but the "donation arrangement" where no specific amount is asked, may have been triggered by a lawsuit again Jimmy Swaggart Mininstries, where in the Watchtower Society gave some support to JSM. I don't know for 100% if this is true or not, but have heard it from a few different sources.

23

The civil trial in Japan

by japanesegirl in

finally in japan, there happened a civil trial which is by a brother who was unfairly deleted his status by a body of elders of his congregation.

he has sued them for religious and power harassment.

although the brother's name and details are not told, the trial is progressing to the middle stage.

rawe

Hi Band on the Run,

"I believe religiious groups have every right to define who is a member or not."

I agree. I also think the case of Janice Paul v The Watchtower in 1987 shows how unlikely it would be to win a case. However, when Jehovah's Witnesses announce to the congregation "Name of individual is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses" the intent is to slander and cause alienation of affection between the individual and family and friends who are Jehovah's Witnesses. They do this by theologically linking the statement with 1 Corinthians 5, wherein a sexual deviant is declared "wicked" by the Bible writer Paul.

Can Jehovah's Witnesses appeal to freedom of religion to be protected from all charges of slander? Thus far apparently so. But I do think, they're well aware, they are close to the line. Three reason I believe this are: (a) They removed the "unbecoming a Christian" phrase from the announcement and (b) around the time of the Paul case they removed disfellowshipping action as possibility for non-baptized associates and (c) they changed the baptism vows to make it more clear one was entering into a contractual membership arrangement with the religion.

Finally I think WT lawyers may at times wonder about another couple possibilities. One is wrongful death, wherein a member in the process of being disfellowshipped commits suicide. Or alternatively, a member in fear of disfellowshipping refuses a life-saving blood transfusion and dies.

As the Candace Conti case appears to illustrate Jehovah's Witnesses want the full protection of the first amendment, full control over the minute details of members lives, yet be free of all responsibility for the negative outcomes of such assertive control.

Cheers,

-Randy

25

should christains own cats?

by unstopableravens in

is it appropriate for a christian to own a cat, in light of their past pagan religious affiliation and the medical information that is now coming to light?

it would be misleading to answer this question with either a simple yes or a no.

the scriptural answer of necessity must be a qualified one, and it is easy to see why.

rawe

Hi Everyone,

"since the Great Flood of Noah’s time (c2350 B.C.E.)."

That's a whoops - must add 20 and make that 2370 BCE for JWs. This happens of course due to the 607 BCE date -- i.e. push one, push all!

Cheers,

-Randy

73

this week's wt study

by thedog1 in

i conducted the wt study tonight on higher education.

i wondered what the reaction of the bros and sis would be.

there was no deviation from the idea that a university education is not a good idea.

rawe

Hi Rm1,

"From College Major to Career (sort on unemployment percent)"

PHILOSOPHY AND RELIGIOUS STUDIES: 7.2%

Hey, maybe this will work out for my 3rd daughter! :D

Cheers,

-Randy

30

I regret my disassociation.

by Zoos in

jw
friends

if i knew then what i know now, i might never have disassociated myself.

i realize all i can do is speculate on what could have been.

however, when i consider the number of people i might have been able to help by dropping little thought-provoking seeds, i really regret having jumped to the decision to disassociate so quickly.. ive read the accounts of several people on this forum telling of how stressful it is to be in the position that i just described above.

rawe

Hi Everyone,

At first I felt sending a letter of disassociation is playing by their rules too, so I didn't do that. Of course after putting Christmas lights on my house 2 years after leaving I was the subject of disassocation by action. In my case I even agreed to meet with the elders who contacted me, so long as I could record the meeting and have a lawyer present. I even suggested they could make a public announcement that I was an atheist, so long as they made it clear they were not directing anyone to shun me or implying I was 'wicked' (1 Cor 5:1, 13)

Not too surprisingly, they didn't take me up on the offer.

Sending a letter of resignation to any organization is a prerogative of the individual. What Jehovah's Witnesses decide to do with that information is on them. If they choose to publically slander the individual and use their religious influence to negatively influence normal family affections, then they should not be surprised to be labelled a 'cult.'

What I do think is playing by their rules, is participating in our own shunning. That I try hard not to do, but instead interact with any family and friends who are Witnesses in a normal friendly matter. At the same time, I don't try to go out of my way to make my JW friends and family uncomfortable, knowing that much of how they act is the result of the delusional influence they're under.

Take care,

-Randy

73

this week's wt study

by thedog1 in

i conducted the wt study tonight on higher education.

i wondered what the reaction of the bros and sis would be.

there was no deviation from the idea that a university education is not a good idea.

rawe

Hi Billy,

"Higher education, with its emphasis on academic study, often produces graduates who have few or no practical skills, leaving them unprepared to deal with the realities of life."

My oldest daughter from about age 14 decided she wanted to be a registered nurse. Now at age 25, she has completed nearly two years as an R.N. The skills of this profession are a mix of class room book learning and hands on practice.

In contrast my third daughter is in her 3rd year at St. John's College, which is a Great Books college. Basically she will come out with a background in philosophy. I sometimes joke with co-workers that you know employers just can't find enough philosophers! In reality though, academic study, is often not just learning things and gaining specific knowledge, but learning how to learn and how to communicate ideas. When such material is produced by Jehovah's Witnesses, we now know how dishonest they are being. They're not concerned at all about an individuals "practical skills", but instead know higher education often develops critical thinking skills, that in turn will cause people to see issues with the faith.

Cheers,

-Randy

139

Ever consider joining The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

by rawe in

has anyone here left jehovah's witnesses to join the churuch of jesus christ of latter-day saints?

what was your motivation for doing so and how has it worked out?.

if you haven't joined the lds or considered it, as an ex-jw, what is your general view of the lds faith?.

rawe

Hi Cold Steel,

"I joined this site because my family got dropped like hot potatoes after a branch of our family joined the Jehovah's Witnesses."

Do they remain Witnesses? This thread confirms what I believe is generally true. That is, few Ex-JWs become LDS members. And likewise few LDS members become Witnesses. However, it does happen. In both cases, it is a warm thought if your faith is the one that has gained the member. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "dropped like hot potatoes", but it sounds like other LDS members were wishing to blame your family for this change? In any regards, if one is involved in a life-defining faith, it can create shockwaves in a family when you leave. Unfortunately for the Witnesses, this often is translated into life-long shunning towards those who leave.

"My grandmother was terrorized by JW literature that spoke of people ceasing to exist at death. The thought of her going into the ground and fading to nothingness was repugnant to her (as it would me)."

Witnesses are fond of quoting Ezekiel 18:4 to show the soul is not immortal and can die and Ecceliastes 9:5 that the dead are unconscious. Annihilation at death is one thing the Witnesses have been consistent about, since their start as International Bible Students. It seems to have stemmed from a general dislike of the hell-fire doctrine by Charles Russell (founder of the Bible Students). In reality it is obvious that death ends animated life. Most religious thought through the ages seeks to solve this obvious fate in one way or another. For Witnesses the solution was restoration of life via ressurection.

"Once I'm dead, however, if I do become non-existent, I don't want to be resurrected."

Of course if you were non-existent, you wouldn't know ;-)

"Part of the LDS faith that appeals to me is that it is predicated on the principle that God is of such a nature that he would never put someone into the horrible situations that exist on the earth -- situations in which the rate of failure were remarkably high -- without first gaining the consent of the person being born into mortality."

Religious ideas often seek to find purpose in life, find ultimate justice and the like. "Blow a horn in Zion, O men, and shout a war cry in my holy mountain. Let all the inhabitants of the land get agitated; for the day of Jehovah is coming, for it is near!" (Joel 2:1). Language like this is common in much of the OT. When we see injustice, we want to see it dealt with. Since so many times it is not, we imagine an ultimate fix, a "day of the Lord". And of course, the greatest affront to us all, is no matter what we do, we will die. Nothing saves us from that.

"Because of our premortality, we had the choice of being born and consented to it having a fairly good idea of what we were getting in to. And succeed or fail, it was our decision. All part of free will. We had much to lose, but we also stood a lot to gain."

Pre-existence is an interesting LDS idea, that no doubt is used to make logical sense of the otherwise indifference the universe shows towards life. When a child is born into poverty and dies before the age of 5, it reeks of injustice. How can this be solved? Maybe we can imagine a poor choice made in the pre-existence. Or for Witnesses, we can reason this is "Satan's system" subject to "futility" (Romans 8:20) due to Adam and Eve's bad use of free will. Alas, the biological reasons for premature death in humans is often no different than what happens to dogs or cats, who, we would imagine, are not subject to choice and free will.

The idea of our life being a test of sorts is not unique to the LDS. The OT story of Job is of this sort. Thinking in terms of a brain evolved towards finding purpose helps make sense of why such ideas appeal to us.

"I don't trust religions run by men who aren't called and ordained by God."

Jehovah's Witnesses believe they are ordained ministers.

"No church was formed, and there weren't any biblical offices such as bishops, priests, deacons, teachers, apostles and others."

The terms "ministerial servant" and "elder" are drawn from NT Greek. Jehovah's Wtinesses sincerely believe they are following 1st century Biblical patterns in how they are organized. Even how local congregations are named, such as the naming of "Union Hills" in Phoenix, where I was an elder, reflect upon patterns of congregation naming in Revelation and Paul's NT writings.

"If no church, then no officers; if no officers, no authority; if no authority, then no revelation; and if no revelation, then no church."

This is probably more a case of semantics. Witnesses stemmed from "sincere Bible students" who have never claimed modern inspiration the likes of OT and NT Bible writers. Nonetheless, despite such seeming deference, the leaders believe they are directed by Jehovah's Holy Spirit and are his chosen channel of communication on earth today.

"Thus, while we have general authorities very much like the JW Governing Board, the difference isn't in the suits, the ages of the men, the types of offices they work in, but there is a difference in what they say and do, and the authority by which they do it."

Agreed. There are both similarities and differences. Believing Witnesses would likely say "how dare they..." in regards to the claims of made by the LDS leaders, "see, our leaders are much more humble" the would claim. Pragmatically, though, it works out to be about the same.

Cheers,

-Randy

21

GODS NAME?

by ADJUSTMENTS in

in my culture using the first name or even last name ( we use mom,dad,sir,ma'am,grandma,grandpa,auntie,uncle) of my parents or an older and respected person in my family or circle of friends it is considered downright disrespectful!!!

even when it comes to a person who is a doctor in secluar society, out of respect you would say dr. last name, not using the first name.

not sure of how your culture does things, but if its a friend or an aquatintence of the same age we typicaly can use their first name.

rawe

Hi Jgnat,

Saving Mr. Banks Trailer

What an interesting clip to put into this thread! I am looking forward to taking my daughters to see this movie, maybe over the Christmas break.

On the need for precise name usage...

"Poppins, ... never ever just Mary"

On the need to be less formal...

"Oh, 'Walt', you've got to call me 'Walt'"

On keeping promises...

"Twenty years ago I made a promise to my daughters I would make your Mary Poppins fly off the pages of your books"

On being creative with others...

"No, no, no, no... responstible is not a word"

On missing the point...

"You think Mary Poppins has come to save the children?"

On not being so serious as to miss out on life's enjoyment...

"Oh, no, I had a wager I couldn't couldn't get you on a ride. I just won twenty bucks!"

Cheers,

-Randy

24

Why Evolution Is True--something that scares me

by DS211 in

jw
friends

so im reading "why evokution is true" by coyne and the page im on is talking about darwin and natural selection:.

"but natural selection was also the part of evolutionary theory con- sidered most revolutionary in darwins time, and it is still unsettling to many.

selection is both revolutionary and disturbing for the same reason: it explains apparent design in nature by a purely materialistic process that doesnt require creation or guidance by supernatural forces.

rawe

Hi Perry,

"Get right with God through the blood of Jesus and he'll take you places and show your things you NEVER DREAMED of. He did it for me."

Respectfully, Perry, I think you're making a connection and dogmatic choice that is not really required. It is entirely possible to be both a Christian and accept the factual basis of the theory of evolution. The book that convinced me the theory of evolution is correct and fact based was Finding Darwin's God. The author is Kenneth Miller. He is both a subject matter expert (molecular biologist) and a Bible believing Christian (Roman Catholic).

Accepting the sort of arguments one finds on sites like s8int.com, puts one in the same camp as Jehovah's Witnesses in regards to science. Which in turn forces one to ask why God and Jesus, would demand that being "right with [them]" would involve he wholesale rejection of the foundational science for life on earth? Why must faith in God require us to cast doubt on the obvious insight and integrity of men like Kenneth Miller? The answer I think is likewise obvious -- it doesn't.

Another author who strikingly shows a choice between accepting science and the theory of evolution is not required is Francis Collins. He was an atheist, who later became Evangelical Christian. He is a physician-geneticist who headed the Human Genome Project. An observation and comment he made in his book The Language of God about the link between DNA and homosexuality helped me shed some of my left-over JWisms on the subject.

To be sure, many who accept the theory of evolution are also atheists, such as myself, but such does not need to imply the connection is absolute.

Cheers,

-Randy