Posts by rawe

139

Ever consider joining The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

by rawe in

has anyone here left jehovah's witnesses to join the churuch of jesus christ of latter-day saints?

what was your motivation for doing so and how has it worked out?.

if you haven't joined the lds or considered it, as an ex-jw, what is your general view of the lds faith?.

rawe

Hi Cold Steel,

You've posted a fair bit of material. If I get more time, I'll read it and respond. Here is a couple off the cuff comments...

"And I understand why. Any person leaving any church in bitterness feels that they’ve been manipulated, deceived, and that they’ve wasted a lot of time for nothing. That’s why many become atheists."

Indeed is not a nice feeling to make the awful discovery that a trusted source has in fact been less than honest. However, for what is worth, in my own case, I generally felt fairly positive about my involvement with the Witnesses, especially during my younger years, where I was adopted by the congregation as a "fatherless boy." Since both my parents were disfellowshipped, I went to meetings alone, even as an 8-year-old. I also remained in the faith for several years, after admitting to myself I was an atheist. At the time, I would have not expressed it so bluntly -- probably more of "I have doubts about the existence of God."

One Ex-Mormon in particular impressed me with how he expressed his feelings. His story convinced me there is kinship between Mormons and Witnesses who eventually come face to face with their doubts about the veracity of their faith. I found his story on exmormon.org and recall his concerns about DNA vs faith claims regarding American Indians. My point here is not the focus on his concern, but instead how he expressed feelings that were akin to my own. It has been a long while since I read his story, but I just skimmed through it again for this post.

Here is a snippet that captures his feelings: "I didn't leave the LDS Church and stop believing because it was easy. I desperately wanted the comforting teachings of the Church to be true. I don't have any brilliant insight to offer about the meaning of life, and I haven't found another true Church."

It is story #125 - Simon Southerton from Australia.

"But at the same time it’s foolish to put the Mormons in the same category as the WTBTS."

Some aspects are the similar, some are different. Naturally a believing Mormon will focus on the differences that seem to make the Mormon faith "correct." In the end, it is often a personal journey. You speculated on why many who leave the Witnesses become atheists. But of course, you don't know, right? Having never been a Witness or an atheist, all you can do is ask and draw conclusions on what may be the reasons. Likewise, although I can read The Book of Mormon and express critical vews about sections of the KJV being plagerized, this is not the same as being a Mormon. What the LDS faith means to you, would naturally go beyond such things.

Cheers,

-Randy

11

How do I edit my profile

by nonjwspouse in

such as addiing a quote, or place of origin, etc.

?.

rawe

Hi Everyone,

Hmm... I am not sure which email address I used for this site. So, here is a test post, to see if my picture appears via gravatar.com...

Cheers,

-Randy

28

Revelation, It's Grand Climax at Hand

by Cold Steel in

it's a rather large red book.. if i wanted to purchase one from a pioneer, how much would it cost?.

i'm reading a borrowed copy now.. thanks!.

.

rawe

Hi Cold Steel,

"So if the two trees and two candlesticks represent the two witnesses, how can any theologian worth his salt then turn around and say the two witnesses, in turn, represent all the JW missionaries doing missionary work today"

A lot has to do with what one chooses to emphasize. When Russell started with Zion's Watchtower part of the focus was on the belief Jesus had returned and was (invisibly) "present". Notice how RNWT renders Matthew 24:3 "sign of your presence." So to make you impressed with me, how much I have God's spirt, etc, I'll get you to focus on that. I'll blather on and on about the Greek word there and how other translations like the KJV which say "sign of thy coming" have it all wrong. Maybe, just maybe you won't notice the parallel accounts at Luke 21 and Mark 13 don't have the word "present" at all.

Same here, all we need to do is dive into forms of numerology. 6 means this, 7 means that, 10 means the other thing, etc. In this case 2 could indicate legally established, think "two witnesses" (Deut 17:6). So... there you go, two witnesses can now mean all the witnesses at the time.

Cheers,

-Randy

28

Revelation, It's Grand Climax at Hand

by Cold Steel in

it's a rather large red book.. if i wanted to purchase one from a pioneer, how much would it cost?.

i'm reading a borrowed copy now.. thanks!.

.

rawe

Hi Cold Steel,

"They take literal prophecies and turn them into figurative ones;"

A fair amount of weight is given to Rev 1:1 that mentions it was presented in "signs".

"Revelation 11, for example, John is told to measure the third temple with a rod. . .that the Jews or Jerusalem has any part of the latter days."

Jehovah's Witnesses developed a frustration in regards to literal Jews, since early attempts to bring them the "good news" did not succeed. Thus, nearly all Biblical references to Jews, especially in the NT have become part of a "replacement theology" where literal Jews are replaced by figurative ones. The literal destruction of the temple in 587 BCE was big event in the minds of OT writers. Not too surprisingly the repeat of this in 70 CE would be a big item in the mind of Jews and Christian of the NT era. What did it portend? Would it be restored in some form in the future? These thoughts show up in Revelation 11 which echos Ezekiel 40.

"And all the pioneers are the fulfillment of those two prophets. It's all complete fantasy."

Of course it is -- but what else would you expect? Jehovah's Wtinesses are going to interpret Revelation in terms of happenings to their organization, despite how insignificant the organization is in reality.

"If the members of the WTBTS knew what crap this red book is, they'd be embarrassed."

In my experience most Witnesses are not deeply interested in this material. They are sort of awed by how "deep" it is and feel a warmth about how significant all these happenings were in the past. How brave those little band of Witnesses who were slaughtered and left in the broad way (Rev 11:8) but where then brought back to life by the spirit of God.

"The copy I have actually has notes in it, as though the reader was taking it seriously."

This book have been covered several times during the congregation bookstudy. Members are expected to pre-study the material before the 1 hour lesson in the group. The range of pre-study can be from none at all to fairly complete. But there is no need to say "as though" it is very likely the person who wrote those notes did in fact take it seriously.

"If people would just read the Bible and spend less time reading the publications, it might dawn on them that they're being bamboozled."

Those invited to the Bible School of Gilead (training for Witness missionaries) are encouraged to read the Bible through before arriving. There are a number of youtube videos by an Ex-Gilead graduate who talks about this exact effect. What it was like to read the Bible apart of "studying" it with the publications. Yes, indeed, an entirely different message can come through.

"David Koresch [Vernon Howell] did the same thing. He'd take one of the great kingdoms symbolized..."

Vernon's background was Seventh Day Adventist, which in some ways has similar origins and beliefs as the Witnesses.

Cheers,

-Randy

28

Revelation, It's Grand Climax at Hand

by Cold Steel in

it's a rather large red book.. if i wanted to purchase one from a pioneer, how much would it cost?.

i'm reading a borrowed copy now.. thanks!.

.

rawe

Hi Cold Steel,

"If I wanted to purchase one [Revelation! It's Grand Climax at Hand!] from a Pioneer, how much would it cost?"

In most countries, no specific amount is suggested[1]. Instead the household is told they can make a small donation to cover the cost of printing and support the world wide work of Jehovah's Witnesses. In terms of obtaining literature, a full-time preacher (pioneer) or ordinary Witness (publish) can both bring you this book, if you ask when they visit. You can also go to a Kingdom Hall and ask the the literature counter and if they have one on hand, they'll give it to you.

Keep in mind, most Witnesses will see this as an indication of your interest in the faith and will designate you for a RV (return visit) with the hopes of starting a "Bible Study" (not really a study of the Bible, but instead a indoctrination process) with you.

Cheers,

-Randy

[1] Other JWN members may be able to confirm this, but the "donation arrangement" where no specific amount is asked, may have been triggered by a lawsuit again Jimmy Swaggart Mininstries, where in the Watchtower Society gave some support to JSM. I don't know for 100% if this is true or not, but have heard it from a few different sources.

23

The civil trial in Japan

by japanesegirl in

finally in japan, there happened a civil trial which is by a brother who was unfairly deleted his status by a body of elders of his congregation.

he has sued them for religious and power harassment.

although the brother's name and details are not told, the trial is progressing to the middle stage.

rawe

Hi Band on the Run,

"I believe religiious groups have every right to define who is a member or not."

I agree. I also think the case of Janice Paul v The Watchtower in 1987 shows how unlikely it would be to win a case. However, when Jehovah's Witnesses announce to the congregation "Name of individual is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses" the intent is to slander and cause alienation of affection between the individual and family and friends who are Jehovah's Witnesses. They do this by theologically linking the statement with 1 Corinthians 5, wherein a sexual deviant is declared "wicked" by the Bible writer Paul.

Can Jehovah's Witnesses appeal to freedom of religion to be protected from all charges of slander? Thus far apparently so. But I do think, they're well aware, they are close to the line. Three reason I believe this are: (a) They removed the "unbecoming a Christian" phrase from the announcement and (b) around the time of the Paul case they removed disfellowshipping action as possibility for non-baptized associates and (c) they changed the baptism vows to make it more clear one was entering into a contractual membership arrangement with the religion.

Finally I think WT lawyers may at times wonder about another couple possibilities. One is wrongful death, wherein a member in the process of being disfellowshipped commits suicide. Or alternatively, a member in fear of disfellowshipping refuses a life-saving blood transfusion and dies.

As the Candace Conti case appears to illustrate Jehovah's Witnesses want the full protection of the first amendment, full control over the minute details of members lives, yet be free of all responsibility for the negative outcomes of such assertive control.

Cheers,

-Randy

25

should christains own cats?

by unstopableravens in

is it appropriate for a christian to own a cat, in light of their past pagan religious affiliation and the medical information that is now coming to light?

it would be misleading to answer this question with either a simple yes or a no.

the scriptural answer of necessity must be a qualified one, and it is easy to see why.

rawe

Hi Everyone,

"since the Great Flood of Noah’s time (c2350 B.C.E.)."

That's a whoops - must add 20 and make that 2370 BCE for JWs. This happens of course due to the 607 BCE date -- i.e. push one, push all!

Cheers,

-Randy

73

this week's wt study

by thedog1 in

i conducted the wt study tonight on higher education.

i wondered what the reaction of the bros and sis would be.

there was no deviation from the idea that a university education is not a good idea.

rawe

Hi Rm1,

"From College Major to Career (sort on unemployment percent)"

PHILOSOPHY AND RELIGIOUS STUDIES: 7.2%

Hey, maybe this will work out for my 3rd daughter! :D

Cheers,

-Randy

30

I regret my disassociation.

by Zoos in

jw
friends

if i knew then what i know now, i might never have disassociated myself.

i realize all i can do is speculate on what could have been.

however, when i consider the number of people i might have been able to help by dropping little thought-provoking seeds, i really regret having jumped to the decision to disassociate so quickly.. ive read the accounts of several people on this forum telling of how stressful it is to be in the position that i just described above.

rawe

Hi Everyone,

At first I felt sending a letter of disassociation is playing by their rules too, so I didn't do that. Of course after putting Christmas lights on my house 2 years after leaving I was the subject of disassocation by action. In my case I even agreed to meet with the elders who contacted me, so long as I could record the meeting and have a lawyer present. I even suggested they could make a public announcement that I was an atheist, so long as they made it clear they were not directing anyone to shun me or implying I was 'wicked' (1 Cor 5:1, 13)

Not too surprisingly, they didn't take me up on the offer.

Sending a letter of resignation to any organization is a prerogative of the individual. What Jehovah's Witnesses decide to do with that information is on them. If they choose to publically slander the individual and use their religious influence to negatively influence normal family affections, then they should not be surprised to be labelled a 'cult.'

What I do think is playing by their rules, is participating in our own shunning. That I try hard not to do, but instead interact with any family and friends who are Witnesses in a normal friendly matter. At the same time, I don't try to go out of my way to make my JW friends and family uncomfortable, knowing that much of how they act is the result of the delusional influence they're under.

Take care,

-Randy

73

this week's wt study

by thedog1 in

i conducted the wt study tonight on higher education.

i wondered what the reaction of the bros and sis would be.

there was no deviation from the idea that a university education is not a good idea.

rawe

Hi Billy,

"Higher education, with its emphasis on academic study, often produces graduates who have few or no practical skills, leaving them unprepared to deal with the realities of life."

My oldest daughter from about age 14 decided she wanted to be a registered nurse. Now at age 25, she has completed nearly two years as an R.N. The skills of this profession are a mix of class room book learning and hands on practice.

In contrast my third daughter is in her 3rd year at St. John's College, which is a Great Books college. Basically she will come out with a background in philosophy. I sometimes joke with co-workers that you know employers just can't find enough philosophers! In reality though, academic study, is often not just learning things and gaining specific knowledge, but learning how to learn and how to communicate ideas. When such material is produced by Jehovah's Witnesses, we now know how dishonest they are being. They're not concerned at all about an individuals "practical skills", but instead know higher education often develops critical thinking skills, that in turn will cause people to see issues with the faith.

Cheers,

-Randy