Posts by WontLeave

32

Watchtower: You Need To Clean Your Organization, NOW!

by metatron in

jw
friends

the leaders of jehovah's witnesses are faced with a dilemma: they endlessly praise themselves as a 'clean' organization that has god's approval while dealing with the day to day reality of internal corruption, barely hidden decay, long term serious sins and a loss of vitality.. it should be obvious that there are countless elders going thru the motions simply to please their families - and much the same is true of publishers, as the society's own statistics manifest a profoundly unproductive preaching work.

worse yet, there is plain evidence of outright disloyalty as confidential documents pop up continually on the internet.

want a new elder's manual?

WontLeave

Jesus Christ himself couldn't get "God's organization" to repent of its evil course. Anyone attempting to reform the top of the organization is destined for failure. The best anyone can do is rescue some of the proletariat from toiling for naught in a vain attempt to please God by submitting to men.

The JWs claiming immunity from the prophecy by Jesus and Paul of the (then) coming apostasy from God is arrogant. God started Judaism and it went bad. Jesus started Christianity and it went bad. Rutherford started JWs (or Russell, if you believe the JW pseudo-history), and it can accomplish what God's and Jesus' organizations failed to do? JWs claim a "spiritual paradise", because they have God's spirit and blessing. What? Judaism and Christianity didn't? That kind of blasphemy is beyond the pale of anything perpetrated by humans in the Bible. Stand back when they are called to answer for their words and deeds, because the earth will open wide to receive their screaming bodies.

10

Does the name GIEGER sound familiar to anyone?

by SweetBabyCheezits in

jw
friends

think louisiana.

pm me if it rings a bell.. warm heathen love & greetings,.

-sbc.

WontLeave

Wait... That's Giger. Sorry. Carry on.

163

The Trinity

by The Quiet One in

i have a question, primarily for trinitarians, but anyone's more than welcome to comment.

what scriptural basis is there for believing in the trinity?

i can understand some having the view that jesus/jehovah both can be worshipped, and the view that jesus should be, but where in the bible is the holy spirit worshipped?

WontLeave

@GOrwell

The divinity of Christ can't be denied. John 1:18 indicates this fact in the NWT more than any other version. John 1:1 has been pulled back and forth as a slam-dunk for both sides, depending on who's doing the interpreting and translating. Without the definite article, there is no proof positive for "God"; at the same time, there is no proof positive for "a god". One argument that is sorely lacking is that it could just be "god" (small g), indicating the Logos is god, just as God is god, Adam was human, I am human. Every Greek scholar agrees the second "god" is descriptive, like an English adjective. "Word was God"/"Word was god"/"Word was a god" may all be correct, if understood a certain way, which is the way I believe John intended. Surely the Heavenly Christ/Logos is/was divine. You can't be called "mighty god" without being a god.

The confusion comes in when people see "one God" as "one god". The word "God" is a name and there is, in fact, only one of those. The word "god" is a title and there are many, including God, Satan, Christ, and all the angels ("elohim"). These people require the trinity, because if the Father is really a god and the Son is really a god, but there is only one god, then they must be one. That is an erroneous assumption, though. The Bible never says there is one god, but there is only one God. God himself talks about other gods; some fake, some real. I've pointed out before that the "false gods" of Egypt demonstrated real power - matching Moses' miracles - indicating there were divine beings involved. Other scriptural accounts refer to blind, deaf, powerless idols; obviously indicating no divine backing. The OT makes it clear that only YHWH is to be worshiped, the NT makes it clear that Jesus is divine and approved by YHWH. Yes, there are 2 "true" gods (gasp!) and many "false" gods (some real, some fake).

The Holy Spirt is another subject altogether and all attempts I've seen to include it as part of a trinity have been pathetic at best.

Dammit! I said I wouldn't do this again!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPw-3e_pzqU

163

The Trinity

by The Quiet One in

i have a question, primarily for trinitarians, but anyone's more than welcome to comment.

what scriptural basis is there for believing in the trinity?

i can understand some having the view that jesus/jehovah both can be worshipped, and the view that jesus should be, but where in the bible is the holy spirit worshipped?

WontLeave

I think I've given up on the trinity threads. Everybody who's had their understanding swayed one way or another by a sound argument or logical collection of Scriptural evidence, please raise your hand. It seems like everybody reads the Bible with an agenda. Atheists read it to find fault. Trinitarians read it to find trinity. Fundies read it to find Hell and excuses for hate. JWs read it to prove the Watchtower. Does it really matter what the Bible says, if you believe it to be the word of God? If the Bible tells you God is a 7-headed hydra, then why not believe it? What difference does it make to you? Why does everybody take so personally what the Bible needs to say, for them to be happy? Just read it and go with that! Why the need to force Scripture to fit preconceptions? I don't get it. You'd think people had a personal interest in it, as though they wrote the Bible and are offended when people don't get out of it what they intended.

Personally, I have no dog in the race; I didn't write the Bible and I really don't care. I only take offence to the godrulz types who come along and order people to adopt their personal take on Scripture or they're going to suffer for it. He's a prime example of someone who takes it very personally, as if he gets a commission for each person he converts or an inch added to his penis for each argument he wins, or something. It's like the stereotypical washed-up salesman who's been on the road forever and hasn't had a sale in far too long: His livelihood and his job are in peril, but his desperation makes it harder to make a sale, so he's caught in a downward spiral. People so insecure with their beliefs they need everybody around them to agree are not convincing at all. If anything, their desperation and grasping at straws is obvious and a turn-off.

A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest. La la la la la la la. - Simon and Garfunkel (I picture fingers in ears during the la's)

Once a man forms a theory, he sees evidence for it everywhere he looks. - Abraham Lincoln

225

A concerned JW wrote "mistakes will happen."

by InterestedOne in

jw
friends

in the thread http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/213523/1/feeling-a-bit-alienated, concerned jw wrote:.

mistakes will happen.

concerned jw, if mistakes will happen, i was wondering what mistakes you feel the jw organization is currently making?

WontLeave

I know of one current inaccuracy that is a real whopper and easy to prove. It's - yet again - one of those instances where JWs arbitrarilly take the road less traveled. For thousands of years, Jews have held Passover on Nisan 15, but JWs insist it's on Nisan 14. I discuss it here, in case any concerned JWs want to see an obvious, current Watchtower inaccuracy (I won't say "mistake", because I'm sure it's been brought to their attention several times). No need for interpretation and no wiggle room on this one. JWs are wrong and the Jews are right. On their only holiday and their most important day of the year, they can't even get the day right - how embarrassing.

Also - I know this viewpoint is unpopular, but I feel it's correct - the rank and file must be held accountable for their idolatry toward the Society and its writings. Putting Watchtowers over Scripture and the personal opinions of 7 old men they've never met and their writing committee over facts is their own fault. The facts that JWs are the most uneducated and lowest-earning denomination in the US betray a deeper problem. Turning over their minds to a cult is merely a symptom of being willfully ignorant and mentally lazy. They allow someone else to do their thinking for them, because they can't be bothered to do it themselves. This is why they're drop-outs, broke-ass losers, and marginally-employable. Granted, there are exceptions, but in my experience, those are few and most of them would be classified as "fringe" JWs.

10

Anyone up for a southern Arizona Heat-Fest??

by Kudra in

jw
friends

-bring your guns.

-no illegals.

hee hee just yankin yer chain.. but seriously, it is hot as a mofo but as awesome as ever here in the sonoran desert.

WontLeave

As long as you have shower curtains, I won't need toilet paper.

9

Active JWs - irregular August

by Mickey mouse in

jw
friends

if you usually put a report in, abstain in august.

help finish the service year with a whimper instead of a bang!.

WontLeave

My wife and I hadn't/haven't turned in a timesheet in quite some time. Interestingly, our CO was pleased to report 100% participation in the ministry, though. JWs fudging the numbers and massaging the truth; go figure.

163

The Trinity

by The Quiet One in

i have a question, primarily for trinitarians, but anyone's more than welcome to comment.

what scriptural basis is there for believing in the trinity?

i can understand some having the view that jesus/jehovah both can be worshipped, and the view that jesus should be, but where in the bible is the holy spirit worshipped?

WontLeave

Old Man River. There; now rivers are personified, too. There's a reason trinitarians only ever seek to indicate binity (Father/Son): The Holy Spirit is an impossible sell. The only people who buy the "proof texts" for the personification of HS are people who already believe it. Those scriptures accomplish for trinitarians what JW "proof texts" against oral sex do - preach to the converted. They carry zero weight with any critics, as they say nothing of the sort they're invoked to establish.

Lady Luck
Mother Nature
Father Time
Grim Reaper
Horsemen of the Apocalypse
Wisdom (Prov 8)

Also, keep in mind, we're translating to a neuter language (English), where words don't have gender. Other languages, words can have gender, even though the object the word describes may not.

13

To be a good Jehovah's Witness you must......

by Sour Grapes in

to be a good jehovah's witness you must:.

have a fear of growing old and be vain about how you look.. struggle to make decisions.. be a nobody who can have power over others.. have a mental disabliity.. have a physical disabilty who wants a cure.. be normal, but have parents who are j.w.'s..

have had bouts of depression.. have a fear of being wrong.. the above are based upon people in the kh.

WontLeave

...obsess over every inane word of a bunch of barely-educated morons who represent 7 old men who claim to represent God.

...gush like an idiot over sitting in a stadium for 3 days, listening to the pseudo-spiritual babbling of printing company spokesmen.

...become inexplicably incensed when shown a scripture that denies one of your beliefs when you spend every Saturday morning trying to do just that to everybody else.

...believe "wait on Jehovah" means "wait on magazine writers to remove their heads from their asses".

...convince yourself rejecting God, Jesus, and the Bible to worship 7 old men and blindly obey a magazine as your holy book is the only way to be a "true Christian".

...be willfully ignorant and even deny the precious few things you do know when they conflict with the writings of 7 senile old men and their secretaries.

33

If Jehovah Wanted Only "One Flesh" For "Mates" Why Did He Sanction The Having Of Man Wives & Concubines?

by minimus in

jw
friends

according to the bible, king solomon was blessed by jehovah with riches, wisdom and women---lots of them!.

WontLeave

A likely translation of Paul is an elder must be husband of his "first" wife; not "one" wife. The Bible is never down on polygyny, but often forbids divorce. Monogamy is a relatively recent invention. Churches forbade polygyny to distance themselves from Judaism, then sought Bible verses to back it up. Grasping at straws, they came up with things like Jesus speaking against divorce and the certificate being because of the Jews' "hardheartedness" to support the dogma.

Jehovah told Abraham to take his wife's slave, so he didn't just "tolerate" polygyny; he supported it. There are many details in the Mosaic Law concerning polygyny. If God didn't want Jews to practice it, he'd have forbidden it, rather than instruct them how do to it. All the arbitrary rules: Blue string in the hem, fringe on the hem, etc. and nothing about "Don't marry more than one person"? Polygyny had and still has God's blessing, according to Scripture.