Posts by WontLeave

209

The trouble with Christianity. TRINITY.

by whereami in

gotta love pat.. "ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions.

ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity.

it is the mere abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of jesus.

WontLeave

@godrulz

assumption that Jesus is an angel

Once again, you resort to an argument that's never made. Jesus is not identified as "an" anything. He is identified as "the", as in singular, meaning there is no other like him. If you don't understand the difference between "an angel" and "the archangel", we're never going to be able to communicate.

Jude 9 refutes the view since Jesus has all authority/power (Mt. 28)

Jude 9 speaks in past tense without indicating whether it was before Jesus' ascension. Also, you'll notice Mat 28:17 indicates Jesus' authority was given to him, requiring a time when he didn't have it. Also, if Jesus is/was Almighty God, who is giving him authority here?

The whole invisible return in 1914 is also a joke

I doubt many in this forum believe the 1914 thing. That is a scam to grant authority to the Governing Body, because people need to belive Jesus returned and decided who the "faithful and discreet slave" is or their power grab will completely fail. For the Watchtower to grant themselves exclusivity to that title, they need Jesus to have already come.

The Deity of Christ is not negotiable, but essential, salvific truth.

Your definition of "deity of Christ" and mine might differ. I don't disagree with Christ's deity, but you're insisting he is the Deity, as if there is only one deity, which is an idea the Bible in no way supports. You'd think if understanding Jesus and the Father are the same (or whatever weasely way various Trinitarians want to describe it), then the Bible would have made it more clear. The mandatory Trinity doctrine is about as solid as the JW's mandatory "faithful and discreet slave" doctrine. For something to be so completely required of God in order for salvation, you'd think he would have come right out and said it, not made it a secret code that nobody can figure out without a priest class (Catholic Magisterium or Governing Body) to "reveal" it. If you believe the Trinity was a common belief before the 5th Century, you are sadly mistaken and totally ignorant of Church history. It wasn't even officially adopted until the 4th Century and hotly disputed. But you try to make out that it's obvious to all "real" Christians. That's called the "no true Scotsman fallacy".

1800 were invited to Nicea, but only about 300 showed up and - conveniently - nearly all were in agreement. Perhaps Unitarians refused to even dignify the heresy with their presence, not realizing it would begin a chain reaction of the erosion of Christianity, ultimately giving us the Catholic Church we have today. The integration of Church and politics is a blatant violation of Scripture and is what brought us the Inquisitions. It's pretty clear the ones in attendance had impure motives to centralize doctrine and power under a small group with the government to back them through violence toward all dissenters. They probably understood this was going to be the only way to promote the heresies they held.

8

Richard Debate

by d in

man richard dawkins is a breath of fresh air to me.relgion is a plaque onto the world and needs to be seriously destroyed.we need more like minded people like richard dawkins.religion is primative and man made.

i hope that in the future religion dies off completely because in a sense religion is literally killing us.it is a cancer on the world.. http://youtu.be/_-s1lansswa.

http://youtu.be/wfe4iub9ntk.

WontLeave

Religion defies logic and reason.

So do relative speed and simultaneity, superstring theory, Schroedinger's cat, and most of quantum physics. He doesn't have the same problem with those godless religions. While those beliefs haven't been invoked while slaughtering people, religion is - and always has been - an irrelevent excuse for the naturally-violent nature of humanity. People hate first, then look for a "noble" reason. Religion is no more responsible for man's ills than guns are responsible for violence. Even a violent, hateful religion like Islam doesn't cause violence, but give Muslims an excuse for preexisting personality traits. I'm convinced the Qur'an became popular because of it's xenophobic nature and the perception of an OT blood-thirsty God is embraced and promoted by fundamentalists.

Remove religion from the equation and people will just invoke another reason for their hair-trigger hate. Religion wasn't the catalyst for the US Civil War, WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, or many other major wars.

209

The trouble with Christianity. TRINITY.

by whereami in

gotta love pat.. "ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions.

ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity.

it is the mere abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of jesus.

WontLeave

@godrulz

wrong to reduce Jesus to Michael or mere man

Here's something I have never been able to understand: How is saying Jesus is Michael an insult to Jesus? The theory the Society has about Jesus being Michael is actually one of their more sound theories. It's no slam dunk and I believe it to be wrong to preach it as a fact, but at least there are some scriptures that appear to indicate this. The Word, before becoming Jesus, was a unique being. Michael the Archangel (which means he's above the angels) is a unique being. Jesus is the "only-begotten" in relation to the Father. Michael is the "archangel" in relation to the angels. Why can't they be the same? Just as someone can be an employee, a father, a brother, etc. to different people, Jesus is different things to different personages. To us, he's a savior, but not to God or angels.

As far as reducing Jesus to "mere man", you'll have to talk to the apostle Paul about that, since "man" is a word he uses repeatedly to describe the Christ on earth. In Heaven, Jesus had (and has) a very different existence than he did 2000 years ago. As the "last Adam", he would need to be human unless Adam was something other than a man.

It sounds like you need to read the Athanasian Creed, because you repeatedly deny the definition of the Trinity. It may be that you recognize the Trinity to be a ridiculous belief, so you've tweaked it a bit to sound less preposterous, but that's dishonest and it's not the Trinity when you start changing things. You can't invoke the name for a belief then deny you believe what that name describes. I might as well say I believe in the Trinity, then go on to say that means the Father has always existed, at one time created the Son, using his power called Holy Spirit. Boom, my personal definition of Trinity, so now I'm a Trinitarian.

9

LMFAO oh what emotionally manipulative BULL!!!

by Reality79 in

jw
friends

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5hi98nsy6u.

*how do i display youtube vids?*.

the mother in the vid, while she's quite good looking, is a typical soft spoken sister who is actually skillful at emotional manipulation.

WontLeave

She's right, you know. This is why we can't slave for the Governing Body and for God. Of course, when JWs say "Jehovah", they really mean "the Society", so they don't see a conflict. When they read Pro 3:5, they see "Trust the Watchtower magazine." I cringe when a JW says "Wait on Jehovah" when something is addressed in the Bible, but the Watchtower has a different idea. It would seem Jehovah has already weighed in, but what a JW really means when they say this is "Wait for the Governing Body to pull their heads from their rectums." Because of this blatant misapplication of Psa 37:7, no JW is permitted to acknowledge (or even notice) any mistakes made by the Governing Body, and by extension (I just had to put that in there), the Writing Department. One can acknowledge the "old light" and be happified by the Society's light getting brighter, but seeing any current mistakes is completely verboten. This idolatry is what makes the entire organization distasteful and will be the downfall of a very large portion of 7M active and faithful Witnesses.

12

Where do the JW's pull their statistics from?

by stillstuckcruz in

i noticed how, of course, the public talk outlines contain the same information for all the brothers to use.

but their statistics on matter aren't very up-to-date i imagine.. example: i remember the talk about parents or young people or something.

many of you may remember the statistic it provides.

WontLeave

Never believe any JW statistics, experts, or experiences. They blatantly twist statistics and shop around for the ones they want. They'll use any crackpot who agrees with their ridiculous ideas. When they can't find anyone at all, they'll say things like "experts agree" or "many in the field", which means they believe it and see themselves as experts. Of course, many of the "experiences" are completely fabricated, which is why - in my opinion - the names are changed and the area where they live is vague. This way, nobody can verify the outlandish claims. Most of the interviews are with people right at Bethel, who are nearly all hard-line cult nutters or they wouldn't be there in the first place.

90

I called the KH- "the Memorial is tomorrow night, right?

by moshe in

i called just before noon today- an elder promptly answered the phone.

i told him, " uh, memorial is tomorrow night, right?".

passover starts tomorrow night, after sundown!

WontLeave

Here's a quick mock-up of my take on the first Passover/Exodus with a few supporting scriptures. I tried to be as specific as the text allowed. From everything in the Bible, things transpired very quickly, which doesn't seem to allow for an early Nisan 14 Passover meal. I tried to make hotlinks to biblegateway.com, but they didn't work.

90

I called the KH- "the Memorial is tomorrow night, right?

by moshe in

i called just before noon today- an elder promptly answered the phone.

i told him, " uh, memorial is tomorrow night, right?".

passover starts tomorrow night, after sundown!

WontLeave

@TD, et al

If you have access to Excel, I posted a version of the Nisan 13-15 timeline for it, which would make it a lot easier to stick the scriptures where you think they go.

56

Happifying? Real WT quote, or are we joking -

by james_woods in

maybe i just missed it, (the story of the word) - but i am seeing this word "happifying" in a lot of threads.. can it possibly be that the wt actually printed this??

?.

WontLeave

After reading most articles and sitting through most meetings, I feel stupified.

50

Couple of questions for the Christians here - CO's talk mentioned some things that I want to understand

by Doubting Bro in

jw
friends

this is a question for all the christians on the board.

i sat through the first co talk last night which was basically a plea to not give up preaching.

one of his main points was that no one else had "the truth" and every other person that claims to be christian is in error.

WontLeave

sectarian bias vs grammar is the only reason it deviates one time

Find me another instance with similar sentence structure (not just the 2-word phrase) and we'll see how it's translated.

you would not defend it if you had a few months of introductory Greek

This might be true. Similarly, people with a semester of psychology might misdiagnose a mental condition. However, people with several years' experience seem to disagree, as reflected in many translations. I'm sure you're already aware of this, so I won't belabor the issue or copy and paste examples. Additionally, some translations of Exodus 14:3 don't read "I Am", because God was not making that his name, but stating his existence. Exo 6:3 reminds us what God's actual name is.

Jesus is Jehovah is true in a monotheistic sense

That would be monotheistic, so long as you included all other gods in the mix. But, contrary to popular belief, the Bible is not monotheistic. Why don't you take a look at the link I sent you to my realization on John 1:1, because you're arguing against claims I've never made. Those are called "straw men".

You are still essentially WT on the essentials.

On most doctrinal issues, or it would have been silly to join in the first place. I studied the Bible and other "holy" books before I knew what to believe. Then, I searched various church denominations to find like-minded people. On the surface, JWs appeared to be a Bible-only religion. They lied. Their focus is more on the Governing Body than God or Christ and more on Watchtowers than the Bible. I discovered the dual doctrines after I'd already joined: One for preaching and another for inside the congregation. Even the internal Watchtower is written with ambiguity built in so the elders can give it even more of a hard-line slant, while retaining deniability to the public.

You may be stubborn and independent

That henceforth we be no more children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the wickedness of men, by cunning craftiness, by which they lie in wait to deceive - Eph 4:14

the acid test is the Deity of Christ

That's what many churches say. Can you show me where Jesus says that?

50

Couple of questions for the Christians here - CO's talk mentioned some things that I want to understand

by Doubting Bro in

jw
friends

this is a question for all the christians on the board.

i sat through the first co talk last night which was basically a plea to not give up preaching.

one of his main points was that no one else had "the truth" and every other person that claims to be christian is in error.

WontLeave

biblical, historical, orthodox Christianity

If you believe the Trinity is Biblical or historical, you need to research the origin of the doctrine. True, it has become "orthodox", but so have many other clearly false doctrines. Many of these are argued by various Catholic spin-off religions, but the vast majority cling to the Catholic invention of Trinity.

I assume you are Arian and believe Christ is creature, not uncreated Creator

Jesus has a unique relationship with the Father. He is the only-begotten and his position and nature can not be equated with anything else. Jesus was instrumental in creation; this is clearly stated in Scripture. I have posted brief essays of how the Bible describes the relationship between the Father and Son to me. There's one in this post.

I assume you still deny the personality of the Holy Spirit?

No more than anything else I've ever seen poured out or something filled with. Once again, Holy Spirit is unique and nothing else like it exists to equate it to.

Quoting a verse generically is not interpreting or defining it. If I was asked, I would not hestiate to say that He is God Almighty in the flesh, the God-Man, one person with two natures

And that is why your doctrine is flawed. Stick with what the Bible actually says instead of filtering it through church doctrine and trying to force Scripture to fit preconceived doctrines.

Until you renounce the WT

I don't recall ever claiming any sort of WT-centric faith.

embrace Jesus as Jehovah (I AM), you will still be lost in your sins.

Jesus is Jehovah? That is a patently false Mormon belief. Are you saying there is no father/son relationship? This would require higher and lower relative positions of separate individuals. If you cling to the Trinity, you're implying God used about the worst possible language to describe his relationship to Jesus. Just like the WT, you're attempting to "explain" what God meant to say and failed to. There is no "I AM". That is a blatant manipulation in translation to reach a Trinitarian goal. That particular argument is a dogmatic grasping at straws.

Given your position, should the WT not disfellowship you? Should you not have the integrity to let them know where you are at so they can kick you out?

I don't generally seek a fight with the elders, but will not run from one, either. I have been confronted for exercising Christian freedom or differences of opinion about various things and stuck with the Bible when it conflicts with WT doctrine. I have posted about this many times. I do not hide my beliefs in my congregation, which is why I have been attacked by the elders. This type of behavior and disregard for Scripture, in favor for Watchtower articles were instrumental in completing my awakening. When the dogmatic power structure does decide to cast me out of the synagogue (which I have no doubt will happen), I want it to be for the best possible reason: Standing up for the truths in the Bible. That doesn't mean I'm going to give personal information out over an Internet forum.