Posts by Curtains

44

If You Were a Member of an Oppressed Minority ...

by snowbird in

jw
friends

how do you think you would be getting along now?.

why?.

asked in all sincerity.. syl.

Curtains

well I have been part of an oppressing majority and a part of an oppressed minority and somewhere in between too. This song sums up how I feel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcrEqIpi6sg

21

1st Post! and the topic of Grace

by GOrwell in

hi folks,.

a bit of a long-time lurker and a recently registered account, i thought i'd post my first topic.

i'm a successful fader, and have recently begun reading the new testament, using a few different translations (nwt included, for comparisons sake).

this has been my bugbear too. The NT was not orginally written in English. "undeserved kindness" is an english idea incorporating Calvinistic forms of interpretation and taking those to awful limits. Grace doesn't fully in modern english resonate with what the original is trying to convey either because to me this is an older english word and also sounds quite churchy in the oldfashioned sense and may turn many modern people away.

I think we need to employ a range of english words to bring out the full flavour of the word translated grace. Joyful spirit, generous spirit, welcoming spirit - I think all the fruits of the spirit fit with the greek.

Undeserved kindess takes one down a blind ally and this is a case of how restricting meaning leads to hardship and misery in Jehovahs witness spiritual life becaue they have very little to work in always seeing the word undeserving, undeserved repeated. This cultivates feelings of inferiority, lack of self esteem and goes in the opposite direction to the welcoming feel of christlike things.

25

My experiences that have turned me away.....

by agent86 in

google_ad_section_start hi everyone, i am just new to this site and thanks for a very dear friend that has encouraged me to post my story and would love to hear feedback from all you out there xx.

this is my story.

we were introduced to the religion in 1982, not soon after we were unbaptized publishers (a bit to soon for me even at that age) i really didnt miss the celebrations as much as were werent that well off and my parents worked 6 days a week to pay the bills.

Curtains

how stupid the elders are. Even if this had happened you were both children. Children explore everything. To go around accusing people of sexual activity as if it was adult on child sexual activity is very stupid.

12

My Husband Cuts through the BS!

by 3dogs1husband in

a long time ago my husband came up with this.. the wtbts holds out our hope like a carrot on the end of a stick, and we should be motivated to all ways want and try to get it.

if you change you mind in anyway and no longer want the carrot, or just wanna stand and eat the grass, you then will be beaten by the stick.. .

.

Curtains

true :))

31

It's OK Lurkers, Paranoid former JW's, and even you current JW's....

by AllTimeJeff in

jw
friends

it's ok.... to post here on the internet, on jwn, and other jw related forums.. first of all, as we all know, the governing body doesn't provide a forum for jw's to "associate" with their brothers and sisters.

i'm just guessing, and i could be wrong, that its harder to control the flock when they have free access to information and each other.

damn electricity and the technology it brings..... anyway, i realize that for anyone leaving, or for practicing jw's, to post is a nervous thing.

Curtains

it is hard not to be paranoid. A family member told me about this site and I have been reading many topics. Family mmembers can change and go back - so everything is iffy

I like the bible topics best.

135

No one is going to Heaven (and my introduction to the forum)

by sobrino1 in

i'm new to the forum, though i had been a lurker for quite some time now.

i studied w/ the witnesses for a number of years, to be specific, for 10 years (since i was a child) but never actually became one; though, i was counted as one in the yearbooks as a "publisher.

" so, as far as i got was as an unbaptized publisher.

Curtains

thanks Leolaia - for making these passages intelligible.

"The difference in number and national affiliation is also intelligible with the view that both represent the same group from different points of view, as they draw rather clearly on different conceptions of Israel found in the OT and NT."

This is what I have been grasping for - intelligibility. When I used to read the NWT on its own it was intelligible but when reading with the explanatory literature produced by Jehovahs witnesses I'd struggle to comprehend. And now when I try to grapple with Debator it is hard to get my head around Jehovahs witness' explanations as they are very unintelligible when compared with the bible. They pick out remote verses that have nothing to do with one another and are from different contexts and then they produce what I think of as an additive rich, fat laden unhealthy sausage of an explanation.

you said

"This is just an instance of the YLT being too literal; this is simply a matter of grammatical agreement in number (imagine saying "two dozens" instead of "two dozen"). This can be seen in the verses that follow that khiliades is plural there as well, and it does not refer to a sum more than 12,000 because 12 x 12,000 = 144,000."

I see.

you said

"Such as the tribes listed, which do not correspond to any literal tribes of Israel (the twelve listed do not correspond to any OT list of the tribes) or Christianity (which was not divided up into tribes). Rather the tribal specification is a metonymic application of "Israel" and its basic features to the Christian community at large."

I understand the idea of metonym - how interesting to see this in the bible. These devices are often found in declammatory material that is designed to be heard to make associations that will be familiar to listeners. Love it - thanks again Leolaia

135

No one is going to Heaven (and my introduction to the forum)

by sobrino1 in

i'm new to the forum, though i had been a lurker for quite some time now.

i studied w/ the witnesses for a number of years, to be specific, for 10 years (since i was a child) but never actually became one; though, i was counted as one in the yearbooks as a "publisher.

" so, as far as i got was as an unbaptized publisher.

Curtains

I was looking at Youngs translation and he puts 144000 in the plural - one hundred and fortyfour thousands

I want to ask Leolaia if young is simply being very literal. Otherwise his translation suggests there are many 144 thousands - this would make it quite interesting if he suggest such huge multitiudes

135

No one is going to Heaven (and my introduction to the forum)

by sobrino1 in

i'm new to the forum, though i had been a lurker for quite some time now.

i studied w/ the witnesses for a number of years, to be specific, for 10 years (since i was a child) but never actually became one; though, i was counted as one in the yearbooks as a "publisher.

" so, as far as i got was as an unbaptized publisher.

Curtains

debator, I think you are right about the great crowd being a different group as they come out of all nations, tribes and peoples and tongues whereas the 144000 come out of certain jewish tribes. My excuse is that I didn't used to pay attention when I was a witness and still am quite sloppy in my comprehension (I don't have a lot of time to post here as my family are all witnesses)

though both groups are in heaven (wherever that might be) , they are in the temple and are in sight of the lamb, rev7:9. I'm sticking to both groups being born again too as Jesus said all his followers must be born again.

I agree with designs that revelation is to be taken symbolically.

And Leolaia makes a good point about Jehovahs witnesses doing what they accuse other religions of doing when she said

"You mean like how the notion of a "great crowd of other sheep" is constructed from out-of-context Bible verses?"

135

No one is going to Heaven (and my introduction to the forum)

by sobrino1 in

i'm new to the forum, though i had been a lurker for quite some time now.

i studied w/ the witnesses for a number of years, to be specific, for 10 years (since i was a child) but never actually became one; though, i was counted as one in the yearbooks as a "publisher.

" so, as far as i got was as an unbaptized publisher.

Curtains

debator

take another look -

4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

135

No one is going to Heaven (and my introduction to the forum)

by sobrino1 in

i'm new to the forum, though i had been a lurker for quite some time now.

i studied w/ the witnesses for a number of years, to be specific, for 10 years (since i was a child) but never actually became one; though, i was counted as one in the yearbooks as a "publisher.

" so, as far as i got was as an unbaptized publisher.

Curtains

debator in revelation the 144,000 and the great crowd are one and the same group. Read revelation 7 in its entirety and you will maybe see and hear with John's ears and eyes - lol.

and please no lies