Posts by aqwsed12345

135

Rumour 144,000 literal number teaching to be abandoned at Annual Meeting

by slimboyfat in

say it ain’t so!

.

in one sense it’s a no brainer because the figures just don’t add up any more.. in another (negative) sense it’s a no brainer because it’s been fundamental to jws since year dot and might undermine the whole thing?

aqwsed12345

@FreeTheMasons

The claim that Jesus was resurrected as a "spirit creature" is a fundamental misunderstanding of the resurrection accounts in the New Testament. The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus was resurrected in a physical, glorified body, not as a spirit. In Luke 24:39, Jesus specifically invites His disciples to touch Him and see that He has flesh and bones. He goes on to say that a spirit does not have flesh and bones, thereby refuting the idea that He was a mere spirit. The glorified body Jesus had after His resurrection was capable of transcending physical limitations (like appearing in locked rooms), but it was still very much a physical body. This point is critical in Christian theology because it emphasizes the bodily resurrection of all believers (1 Corinthians 15:42-44), which does not involve a transformation into spirit beings.

The Bible consistently teaches that Jesus’ resurrection was a bodily resurrection, not merely spiritual. The New Testament emphasizes that Jesus' physical body was raised, not just his spirit:

Luke 24:39: Jesus, appearing to his disciples after his resurrection, says, "Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have." This is a direct statement where Jesus differentiates himself from a spirit, showing that he was resurrected with a physical body. He invites his disciples to touch him, proving he was not merely an immaterial spirit.
John 20:27: Jesus tells Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." Jesus’ resurrection body still had the wounds from his crucifixion, showing continuity with the body that was crucified, not a temporary or newly created body. Thomas is invited to physically touch these wounds, which a purely spiritual body could not have.

These accounts explicitly refute the idea that Jesus was resurrected as a spirit creature who only materialized a temporary body. He was truly resurrected in the same body that was crucified, glorified but still physical.

Jehovah’s Witnesses argue that Jesus materialized a human body temporarily to demonstrate his ability to do so. However, Scripture portrays the resurrection body as permanent, glorified but still continuous with the earthly body:

Philippians 3:20-21: "But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body." This passage teaches that the resurrection body of Jesus is glorious, and it is the same kind of body that believers will receive. Jesus’ resurrection body is not just a temporary manifestation but a permanent transformation of his earthly body.
Romans 8:11: "And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you." The resurrection of Jesus is directly connected to the resurrection of believers' physical bodies. This shows that the resurrection is a bodily event, not a spiritual transformation alone.

Jehovah's Witnesses claim that the 144,000 in Revelation will be resurrected similarly to Jesus, as spirit creatures at the end of the tribulation. However, this interpretation is speculative and not supported by the context of Revelation:

Revelation 20:4-6 describes the first resurrection, which includes those who were martyred for their faith. It speaks of a bodily resurrection of believers to reign with Christ during the millennium. There is no suggestion in the text that this resurrection is a spiritual transformation or that these individuals are raised as spirit creatures.
The Bible speaks of the general resurrection of the dead at the end of time, where both the righteous and unrighteous will be physically resurrected (cf. John 5:28-29, Acts 24:15). This demonstrates that resurrection in biblical teaching is always bodily—it is about the restoration and transformation of human bodies, not merely the elevation of a person to a spiritual existence.

Jehovah's Witnesses overlook the significance of the incarnation and its permanence. Jesus did not abandon his human nature after the resurrection; rather, he remains fully God and man: 1 Timothy 2:5: "For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus." This shows that Jesus retains his humanity after his ascension. He continues to be the man Christ Jesus, indicating that his resurrection body was not discarded or temporary.

Jehovah’s Witnesses suggest that the 144,000 will have witnesses to their resurrection similar to Jesus. However, Jesus' resurrection is presented in the Bible as a unique and pivotal event, and no other resurrection is portrayed in the same manner:

Acts 1:9-11: When Jesus ascended, the disciples witnessed him go into heaven, and angels told them, "This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven." This passage emphasizes that Jesus' return will be visible, just as his ascension was, reinforcing the idea that Jesus’ resurrection and ascension were bodily and not merely spiritual.
There is no biblical support for the claim that the 144,000 will be resurrected as spirit creatures or that witnesses will observe their resurrection in the same way as they did Jesus’. Scripture teaches the resurrection of the body, and it is not restricted to the idea of purely spiritual resurrection.

The argument that the kingdom is not about rulership but a "family arrangement" that returns to the conditions of Eden is not supported by the broader scriptural understanding of the kingdom of God. The Bible consistently describes the kingdom as a reign and rulership (Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 22:29-30, Revelation 5:10). While it is true that the concept of the kingdom is meant to restore harmony between God and His creation, the Bible makes it clear that Christ and His followers will reign with Him (Revelation 20:4-6). The idea that the 144,000 have a special role in ruling with Christ is derived from a misreading of these passages, where the role of all believers is to share in the kingship of Christ.

The interpretation of "glory" as "love" is an oversimplification. While love is certainly a key aspect of Jesus' character, "glory" in biblical terms refers to the manifestation of divine power, majesty, and holiness (John 1:14; Romans 8:18). Jesus' glory was revealed not only in His humility and kindness but also in His divine authority, power, and eventual resurrection. Romans 8:17 says that believers will share in Christ's glory, which refers to their future glorified state, not merely love or service. This glory is not exclusive to a special group but applies to all believers who are united to Christ.

The claim that the 144,000 are firstfruits because they "are made perfect first" and will work between heaven and earth during the 1,000-year reign is speculative and not supported by a straightforward reading of the Bible. The idea of firstfruits in Scripture (e.g., James 1:18, Revelation 14:4) generally refers to those who are the first to receive the blessings of salvation, not to a special elite group that loses their humanity. Additionally, the idea that the 144,000 will "go back and forth between heaven and earth" is speculative and has no biblical basis. The Bible does not describe the saints in such a role. The teaching that the 144,000 will lose their human inheritance is contrary to the biblical promise of bodily resurrection and eternal life in a new heaven and new earth (Revelation 21:1-3). The entire body of believers will dwell with God in this renewed creation, not just a select few.

The analogy of birds and fish having different gifts to support the idea that the 144,000 have a different inheritance than the rest of humanity is flawed. The Bible teaches that all believers—those who trust in Christ—are co-heirs with Him (Romans 8:17). There is no indication of a two-tier system of salvation, where some believers receive a heavenly inheritance and others remain on earth in a lesser state. The notion that the 144,000 will receive a "different" inheritance contradicts the clear teaching of the New Testament that all believers will share in the same glory and inheritance (Colossians 3:23-24).

The claim that Jesus was resurrected as a spirit creature and merely materialized a temporary body to interact with his disciples is contradicted by biblical evidence. The New Testament clearly presents Jesus’ resurrection as bodily, with physical continuity between the body that was crucified and the body that was raised. This teaching extends to the resurrection of all believers, who will be raised in glorified physical bodies, not merely spiritual beings. The idea that the 144,000 will be resurrected as spirit creatures is speculative and lacks clear biblical foundation. The resurrection in Scripture is about the restoration and transformation of the physical body, not just the elevation of a person to a spiritual existence.

The biblical doctrine of resurrection and salvation affirms that all believers—whether Jew or Gentile, male or female—are united in Christ and share the same inheritance in the new creation. The idea of a select group becoming "spirit creatures" and ministering between heaven and earth lacks any solid biblical foundation. The 144,000 mentioned in Revelation should be understood symbolically as representing the complete and redeemed people of God, not a literal, exclusive group. Salvation and resurrection are not about being divided into different classes, but about being united with Christ and sharing in His glory, which includes a bodily resurrection and eternal life with God in the new heavens and new earth.

135

Rumour 144,000 literal number teaching to be abandoned at Annual Meeting

by slimboyfat in

say it ain’t so!

.

in one sense it’s a no brainer because the figures just don’t add up any more.. in another (negative) sense it’s a no brainer because it’s been fundamental to jws since year dot and might undermine the whole thing?

aqwsed12345

@FreeTheMasons

Have you even read my links?

To refute the idea that the 144,000 will be changed into "spirit creatures" and cease to be human, let's examine what the Bible actually teaches about salvation, resurrection, and the nature of humanity.

Biblical View of Resurrection: The Bible emphasizes the bodily resurrection, not transformation into spirit creatures. For instance, Jesus’ resurrection was physical, as demonstrated in Luke 24:39 where He says, "Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have." Jesus was resurrected with a glorified body, which shows that being human is integral to the Christian hope, not something to be left behind. The Bible never states that those who are redeemed lose their human nature and become spirit beings. In fact, Philippians 3:21 emphasizes that Christ "will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body," reinforcing the idea of bodily glorification, not a disembodied spiritual state.
No "Spirit Class" Doctrine: The New Testament never mentions a class of humans who will become non-human, spirit creatures. The idea of a heavenly government coming down to earth in Revelation 21:2 is symbolic of God’s presence with His people. The Bible speaks of a "new heaven and new earth" (Revelation 21:1), indicating that the redeemed will inhabit a physical reality where they will live eternally, not as spirit creatures but as glorified humans.
Humanity as God's Image: Humanity was made in the image of God (Genesis 1:26), and there is no suggestion in the Bible that humans were intended to become anything other than human. The redemption of mankind through Jesus Christ is about restoring humanity to its intended glory, not transforming it into a different type of being. Romans 8:23 speaks of the "redemption of our bodies," which refers to the resurrection and glorification of human bodies, not their replacement by spiritual forms.
Misinterpretation of 144,000: The number 144,000 in Revelation is often interpreted symbolically to represent the completeness of God’s people, drawn from all tribes and nations, and there is no clear biblical indication that this group is non-human or different from others saved by Christ. Revelation 14:4 describes them as "firstfruits for God and the Lamb," but this refers to their dedication and special role, not to their becoming spirit beings. They remain part of God’s human creation.
Hebrews 1:14 describes angels as "ministering spirits," but there is no indication in Scripture that humans are ever intended to become like angels or lose their humanity.

In conclusion, the Bible teaches that human beings are meant to be redeemed, glorified, and live forever in a renewed creation, not transformed into spirit creatures. The concept of humans ceasing to be human contradicts biblical anthropology, where humanity is created in God’s image and destined for bodily resurrection, not spiritual disembodiment.

135

Rumour 144,000 literal number teaching to be abandoned at Annual Meeting

by slimboyfat in

say it ain’t so!

.

in one sense it’s a no brainer because the figures just don’t add up any more.. in another (negative) sense it’s a no brainer because it’s been fundamental to jws since year dot and might undermine the whole thing?

aqwsed12345

@FreeTheMasons

You should read these:

In Scripture, redemption is not merely about being saved from sin; it is a calling to participate in God's mission. When people are redeemed, they are set apart for God's purposes. For example:

1 Peter 2:9 says: “But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.” This verse shows that redemption comes with a mission—to proclaim God's excellencies and participate in His work.
Ephesians 2:10 adds: “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” The redeemed are called to fulfill a specific role in God's plan by doing good works, a kind of "job assignment."

The idea that only the 144,000 are "assigned to a job" as rulers or priests in heaven, while others are merely "redeemed," misunderstands the broader biblical message of shared responsibility in God's kingdom.

Both the 144,000 and the great multitude in Revelation are described as redeemed (Rev 7:14; Rev 14:4). While the 144,000 may have a specific role, this does not negate the fact that all who are redeemed share in the work of proclaiming God's kingdom.
Revelation 7:9 describes the great multitude as standing before the throne and the Lamb, participating in worship and service to God. This implies they, too, have a role or function in God’s kingdom, even if it differs from the specific priestly role attributed to the 144,000.

The idea of a distinction between being "redeemed" and being "assigned to a job" is too rigid for the biblical narrative. In the Bible, all who are redeemed are called to serve:

Matthew 28:18-20, the Great Commission, calls all disciples to go and make disciples of all nations. This is a task, a mission for all believers, not just a select group.
Romans 12:4-8 speaks of different roles and gifts within the body of Christ, but emphasizes that every believer has a role to play in building up the church.

While it is true that specific roles are mentioned for the 144,000 in Revelation, the notion that only they are "assigned a job" oversimplifies the broader biblical teaching. Redemption always carries with it a calling to serve God, and this applies to all of God's people, not just a select few. The redeemed, whether part of the 144,000 or the great multitude, are called to actively participate in God's redemptive plan for the world. Therefore, the idea of dividing the redeemed into passive recipients and active workers does not hold up to a holistic reading of Scripture.

135

Rumour 144,000 literal number teaching to be abandoned at Annual Meeting

by slimboyfat in

say it ain’t so!

.

in one sense it’s a no brainer because the figures just don’t add up any more.. in another (negative) sense it’s a no brainer because it’s been fundamental to jws since year dot and might undermine the whole thing?

aqwsed12345

@FreeTheMasons

The argument that the number "144,000" must be taken literally based on examples of literal numbers in the Bible overlooks several key factors that suggest this number is, in fact, symbolic in the broader context of Revelation. Here are some points to consider in refuting the claim:

1. Symbolic Nature of Revelation

The Book of Revelation is widely recognized as a highly symbolic text, filled with allegory, metaphors, and imagery. While it is true that some numbers in the Bible are taken literally, Revelation is a genre of apocalyptic literature, where numbers often have symbolic meanings. For instance:

The number 7 is used repeatedly throughout Revelation to symbolize completeness or perfection (seven seals, seven trumpets, seven churches).
The number 12 represents the people of God, as seen in the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles. The number 144,000 (12 x 12 x 1,000) is likely symbolic of the completeness of God's people, encompassing both Old and New Covenant believers.

The highly symbolic nature of the surrounding text makes it more plausible that the number 144,000 is symbolic rather than literal.

2. Symbolism of the 12 Tribes and Their Inclusion

The number 144,000 is described as coming from the 12 tribes of Israel in Revelation 7:4-8. However, the list of tribes presented in this passage does not correspond exactly to the historical tribes of Israel. For example:

The tribe of Dan is omitted.
Joseph and Manasseh are included in a way that differs from traditional lists of the tribes.

This selective arrangement of tribes, combined with the symbolic use of 12, suggests that the 144,000 represents a spiritual "Israel" or the totality of God’s people, not a literal, ethnic Israelite group.

3. Use of Symbolic Numbers Elsewhere

The examples provided (such as Joseph's interpretation of Pharaoh's dreams or the number of stars in Joseph’s own dream) do involve literal numbers. However, these are specific contexts where the surrounding details suggest a literal interpretation. In contrast, Revelation's context, particularly in its apocalyptic framework, leans heavily into the symbolic use of numbers.

Even within the examples provided, the interpretation of certain symbols (like the "beasts" representing kingdoms) shows that numbers in symbolic visions can point to figurative truths rather than strict literalism.

4. The Meaning of "Firstfruits"

Revelation 14:4 refers to the 144,000 as "firstfruits." In biblical language, "firstfruits" often symbolically refer to a representative portion of a larger whole. The 144,000, as the "firstfruits," could be representative of the greater harvest of redeemed people from all nations, as described in the "great multitude" in Revelation 7:9. If the 144,000 were meant to represent only a small, literal group, it would be difficult to reconcile the concept of "firstfruits," which typically implies a larger total group.

5. The Great Crowd and the 144,000

Revelation 7:9 speaks of a "great crowd" that no one could number, from every nation, tribe, people, and language. This group is distinct from the 144,000 and is not limited in number. If one group is literal and numbered, while another is figurative and innumerable, this distinction makes more sense symbolically. Moreover, the great crowd is also depicted as sharing in the salvation of God, reinforcing the idea that salvation is not limited to a literal 144,000.

6. No Explicit Statement that the 144,000 is Literal

The argument claims that because the Bible does not explicitly say the 144,000 is symbolic, it must be literal. However, the Bible also does not say that other symbolic numbers, such as 7 or 12 in Revelation, are symbolic—they are understood as such because of their context. The lack of explicit labeling as "symbolic" is not a valid reason to interpret the number literally, especially given the broader use of symbolism throughout the book.

7. Historical and Theological Consensus

Many theologians and biblical scholars across Christian traditions understand the 144,000 to be symbolic. The number 144,000 is seen as representing the complete number of God's people, drawn from both Jews and Gentiles, throughout history. While Jehovah's Witnesses hold to a literal interpretation, the broader Christian tradition, both Catholic and Protestant, interprets this number symbolically.

Conclusion

While some numbers in the Bible are taken literally, the context of Revelation—and apocalyptic literature more broadly—suggests that the number 144,000 is symbolic. The argument that 144,000 must be literal because some numbers elsewhere in Scripture are literal fails to take into account the unique literary genre of Revelation, the symbolic meaning of numbers throughout the book, and the broader biblical context that emphasizes inclusivity in salvation. The idea of a limited, literal 144,000 ruling with Christ does not align with the overarching message of Revelation, which points to the fullness of God's people from all nations being redeemed.

60

The Question of the "Great Apostasy" and the Historical Continuity of Christianity

by aqwsed12345 in

1. the continuity and visibility of the church.

the true church must be continuous from the apostolic age.

there is no room in christianity for a "gap" or interruption of thousands of years during which true christianity ceased to exist and then was revived in the form of another movement.

aqwsed12345

@FreeTheMasons

I have answered you in the other topic.

Btw. Haitian local customs have nothing to do with official Catholic doctrines and worship practices.

60

The Question of the "Great Apostasy" and the Historical Continuity of Christianity

by aqwsed12345 in

1. the continuity and visibility of the church.

the true church must be continuous from the apostolic age.

there is no room in christianity for a "gap" or interruption of thousands of years during which true christianity ceased to exist and then was revived in the form of another movement.

aqwsed12345

Alexander Hislop's book The Two Babylons has long been a controversial and influential piece of anti-Catholic literature, particularly in certain Protestant and fundamentalist circles. Written in the 19th century, Hislop's central thesis is that Roman Catholicism is essentially a continuation of the ancient pagan religion of Babylon, which he claims is rooted in the worship of Nimrod and his wife Semiramis. Hislop contends that Catholic practices, symbols, and traditions are veiled forms of ancient Babylonian paganism. However, Hislop’s methodology, arguments, and conclusions have been widely discredited by modern scholars for their inaccuracies, leaps in logic, and the genetic fallacy they embody.

Methodological Flaws in Hislop’s Work

Hislop's approach in The Two Babylons can be characterized by several major methodological flaws. One of the most egregious is his reliance on cherry-picking and superficial parallels between Catholic practices and ancient pagan customs. Whenever he identifies any similarity, no matter how tenuous, Hislop jumps to the conclusion that the Catholic practice in question must be pagan in origin. This method is deeply flawed because it ignores the vast complexity of cultural and religious development. Hislop fails to recognize that similar customs can arise independently in different societies due to shared human experiences, rather than direct borrowing or influence. His central methodology, then, is predicated on the genetic fallacy—the erroneous assumption that the origin of something determines its current meaning or validity. Just because a Catholic symbol or practice may resemble something in ancient Babylon does not mean it is derived from or perpetuates that Babylonian tradition.

For instance, Hislop famously asserts that the Catholic use of round communion wafers is a direct adoption of the sun-worship symbolism from ancient Egypt, simply because both objects are circular. This is an obvious instance of false analogy, as round shapes are ubiquitous across many cultures and contexts, with no inherent religious meaning attached to them. Biblical manna, for example, is described as round in Exodus 16:14-15, yet Hislop does not consider this when condemning the use of round wafers as pagan.

In other cases, Hislop draws on dubious historical sources or misrepresents the sources he does cite. He often quotes historical records out of context, distorting their meaning to fit his predetermined conclusions. For example, Hislop connects the Egyptian goddess Isis and her son Horus with Semiramis and Tammuz, claiming that these figures share a direct lineage with later Catholic representations of Mary and Jesus. However, closer examination of Hislop’s references reveals that many of the sources he uses do not support these conclusions and are either mythological in nature or have been selectively quoted to bolster his argument.

Inventing Associations: Nimrod and Semiramis

Hislop's central thesis that the Catholic Church continues the worship of Nimrod and Semiramis rests on shaky historical foundations. Not only is there no credible evidence that Nimrod and Semiramis were worshipped as divine figures in the manner Hislop describes, but Semiramis herself is a legendary figure whose actual historical role is highly uncertain. She was likely a powerful Assyrian queen, but Hislop weaves a complex and speculative narrative around her, associating her with various goddesses from entirely different cultural traditions. He then proceeds to project these associations onto Catholic beliefs, creating a false genealogy of religious practices that have no historical basis. This process of creating connections between entirely unrelated figures and symbols forms the core of Hislop’s methodology. By treating mythology and folklore as historical fact, he constructs a speculative framework that lacks serious scholarly rigor.

The Genetic Fallacy in Hislop’s Argument

One of the most pervasive logical errors in The Two Babylons is the genetic fallacy, wherein Hislop assumes that the origins of an idea or practice determine its present-day meaning or significance. Hislop’s central argument is that because certain Catholic customs have superficial similarities to ancient pagan practices, these customs must be corrupt and pagan in nature. However, this is a flawed way of thinking. Cultural and religious practices evolve over time, often taking on entirely new meanings that are distinct from their origins. Even if some Catholic traditions did have roots in earlier cultural customs, this does not automatically invalidate them as Christian practices. To use an analogy, the use of the cross as a Christian symbol could be linked to earlier forms of crucifixion in the Roman Empire, but that does not mean the cross, as it is understood today, represents Roman execution methods.

Hislop’s argument ignores the possibility that some cultural forms or symbols could have been adopted and reinterpreted by Christianity in a way that is wholly consistent with Christian theology. For example, while Christmas may be celebrated on December 25th, which coincides with the Roman festival of Saturnalia, this does not mean that Christmas is inherently pagan. The Church may have chosen this date to provide a Christian alternative to a popular pagan festival, helping converts transition into the Christian faith. Hislop’s failure to account for such Christianization processes limits the credibility of his arguments.

Hislop’s Legacy in Jehovah’s Witness Theology

Hislop’s work, despite its lack of scholarly merit, has had a lasting impact on certain religious movements, most notably Jehovah’s Witnesses. The Watchtower Society has, for much of its history, adopted Hislop’s method of arguing that various religious traditions are “rooted” in paganism and are therefore false. Jehovah’s Witnesses frequently cite alleged “pagan origins” as a reason to reject various Christian customs, such as the celebration of Christmas or the use of the cross as a symbol of Christ’s sacrifice. By echoing Hislop’s claims, the Watchtower continues to perpetuate the genetic fallacy, implying that any practice with possible pagan origins is inherently invalid or tainted.

Whenever Jehovah’s Witnesses critique a religious tradition, whether it be the Catholic use of the cross or the celebration of birthdays, they often point back to these supposed pagan origins. This strategy of linking practices to ancient paganism is not only problematic because of its reliance on flawed historical analysis, but it also disregards the evolution and transformation of these practices within a Christian context. By refusing to acknowledge that symbols and customs can acquire new, legitimate meanings, the Watchtower Society’s approach effectively paints all non-Jehovah’s Witness religious practices with the same broad brush, as Hislop did with the Catholic Church.

Misunderstanding Analogy vs. Genealogy

One of the key flaws in Hislop's and Jehovah’s Witnesses' methodology is their failure to distinguish between analogy and genealogy. Just because two practices or symbols appear similar (analogy) does not mean one directly stems from the other (genealogy). For example, the use of candles in Catholic worship is often critiqued by Jehovah’s Witnesses because of their supposed connection to pagan rituals. However, candles have been used in countless cultures for various purposes, including purely practical ones such as providing light. The fact that pagans also used candles in their religious rituals does not mean that Catholic candle usage is derived from paganism. Hislop’s and the Watchtower Society’s tendency to make such connections overlooks the complexity of cultural transmission and religious symbolism.

Conclusion: The Enduring Influence of Flawed Scholarship

Hislop’s The Two Babylons remains influential among groups like Jehovah’s Witnesses, despite its many methodological flaws and erroneous conclusions. Hislop’s reliance on superficial similarities, genetic fallacies, and dubious historical sources provides a weak foundation for his sweeping claims about the Catholic Church and Christian practices. Unfortunately, his legacy persists in the form of the Watchtower Society’s continued reliance on the same flawed reasoning to critique religious customs they view as “pagan”. By perpetuating Hislop’s methodology, Jehovah’s Witnesses and other groups undermine their own credibility and fail to engage meaningfully with the historical and theological richness of Christian tradition. Instead, they rely on a form of historical revisionism that strips religious symbols and practices of their context, reducing them to mere echoes of a distant pagan past. This approach, while rhetorically powerful for those already predisposed to reject traditional Christianity, ultimately fails to stand up to serious scrutiny.

135

Rumour 144,000 literal number teaching to be abandoned at Annual Meeting

by slimboyfat in

say it ain’t so!

.

in one sense it’s a no brainer because the figures just don’t add up any more.. in another (negative) sense it’s a no brainer because it’s been fundamental to jws since year dot and might undermine the whole thing?

aqwsed12345

"Men" as Symbolic: The description in Revelation 14:4 uses the Greek word παρθένοι (virgins) in its masculine form, which is often interpreted to mean literal men. However, as you've clarified, Witnesses do not believe the 144,000 are all male. If the term "virgins" is understood symbolically to include both men and women, then this suggests the description is not meant to be taken literally.
Virginity as Symbolic: The term "virgin" is used to indicate spiritual purity, not literal sexual chastity. This symbolic interpretation is broadly accepted among biblical scholars. In Revelation, virginity represents loyalty to Christ and separation from spiritual fornication (false worship). If this is symbolic, it further reinforces that the literal details of this group (such as gender and virginity) are symbolic, not factual.
12 Tribes and the Number 12,000 as Symbolic: Revelation 7:4-8 describes the 144,000 as coming from 12,000 members of each of the 12 tribes of Israel. This, too, is widely understood as symbolic. The tribes listed in Revelation do not correspond exactly to the historical tribes of Israel. In fact, the tribe of Dan is omitted, and Joseph and Manasseh are added in a way that differs from traditional tribal listings. Scholars interpret these symbolic 12 tribes to represent the spiritual Israel, encompassing all of God's people, not literal Jews.
Israelites as Symbolic: If the description of the 12 tribes is symbolic and does not refer to literal Israelites, this suggests that the entire makeup of the 144,000 is spiritual and not ethnic. Galatians 3:28-29 teaches that in Christ, there is neither Jew nor Gentile, and that all believers are considered Abraham’s seed and heirs to the promises made to Israel.

If elements like men, virgins, tribes, and Israelites are all understood symbolically, why would the number 144,000 itself not also be symbolic? Interpreting everything else as symbolic while insisting the number 144,000 is literal seems inconsistent.

The book of Revelation is filled with symbolic numbers — 7, 10, 12, and 1,000, for example, all of which represent completeness or perfection. The number 144,000 (12 x 12 x 1,000) likely represents the fullness of God’s people, not a literal, limited number of individuals of separate "class".

To interpret the 144,000 as a literal number while accepting that the other details about this group are symbolic creates a contradiction. Consistency would suggest that the number 144,000 is also symbolic, representing the full number of those who will be spiritually pure and redeemed by Christ. Thus, the idea that only 144,000 will go to heaven or rule with Christ is based on a selective reading of the text that does not account for the larger symbolic context of Revelation.

60

The Question of the "Great Apostasy" and the Historical Continuity of Christianity

by aqwsed12345 in

1. the continuity and visibility of the church.

the true church must be continuous from the apostolic age.

there is no room in christianity for a "gap" or interruption of thousands of years during which true christianity ceased to exist and then was revived in the form of another movement.

aqwsed12345

"Men" as Symbolic: The description in Revelation 14:4 uses the Greek word παρθένοι (virgins) in its masculine form, which is often interpreted to mean literal men. However, as you've clarified, Witnesses do not believe the 144,000 are all male. If the term "virgins" is understood symbolically to include both men and women, then this suggests the description is not meant to be taken literally.
Virginity as Symbolic: The term "virgin" is used to indicate spiritual purity, not literal sexual chastity. This symbolic interpretation is broadly accepted among biblical scholars. In Revelation, virginity represents loyalty to Christ and separation from spiritual fornication (false worship). If this is symbolic, it further reinforces that the literal details of this group (such as gender and virginity) are symbolic, not factual.
12 Tribes and the Number 12,000 as Symbolic: Revelation 7:4-8 describes the 144,000 as coming from 12,000 members of each of the 12 tribes of Israel. This, too, is widely understood as symbolic. The tribes listed in Revelation do not correspond exactly to the historical tribes of Israel. In fact, the tribe of Dan is omitted, and Joseph and Manasseh are added in a way that differs from traditional tribal listings. Scholars interpret these symbolic 12 tribes to represent the spiritual Israel, encompassing all of God's people, not literal Jews.
Israelites as Symbolic: If the description of the 12 tribes is symbolic and does not refer to literal Israelites, this suggests that the entire makeup of the 144,000 is spiritual and not ethnic. Galatians 3:28-29 teaches that in Christ, there is neither Jew nor Gentile, and that all believers are considered Abraham’s seed and heirs to the promises made to Israel.

If elements like men, virgins, tribes, and Israelites are all understood symbolically, why would the number 144,000 itself not also be symbolic? Interpreting everything else as symbolic while insisting the number 144,000 is literal seems inconsistent.

The book of Revelation is filled with symbolic numbers — 7, 10, 12, and 1,000, for example, all of which represent completeness or perfection. The number 144,000 (12 x 12 x 1,000) likely represents the fullness of God’s people, not a literal, limited number of individuals of separate "class".

To interpret the 144,000 as a literal number while accepting that the other details about this group are symbolic creates a contradiction. Consistency would suggest that the number 144,000 is also symbolic, representing the full number of those who will be spiritually pure and redeemed by Christ. Thus, the idea that only 144,000 will go to heaven or rule with Christ is based on a selective reading of the text that does not account for the larger symbolic context of Revelation.

60

The Question of the "Great Apostasy" and the Historical Continuity of Christianity

by aqwsed12345 in

1. the continuity and visibility of the church.

the true church must be continuous from the apostolic age.

there is no room in christianity for a "gap" or interruption of thousands of years during which true christianity ceased to exist and then was revived in the form of another movement.

aqwsed12345

There are modern churches and movements that, while not explicitly subscribing to Donatism, reflect similar ideas in their attitudes toward the Catholic Church. Many fundamentalist, neo-Protestant, and Restorationist communities emphasize their identity by contrasting themselves with what they perceive as the moral failures of the Catholic Church. A key part of this identity is anti-Catholicism, often expressed through a narrative that says, "They are so bad, but look how good we are."

This is why such groups frequently focus on leyenda negra myths, painting a black-and-white picture of the "evil" Catholic Church, especially during the so-called "Dark Ages." They often emphasize historical episodes like the Inquisition, portraying the Church as morally corrupt without nuance or historical context. Similarly, they take satisfaction in modern clergy scandals—particularly those involving sexual misconduct—amplified by the mainstream media’s sensational coverage.

This moral judgment of the Church, where its legitimacy is assessed solely on the personal sins of its members or leaders, is very much a form of modern Donatism. In Donatist thinking, the moral purity of the Church's members or leadership determines the Church's legitimacy. This is the same underlying principle many of these movements apply when they claim that the Catholic Church's historical sins or scandals invalidate its authority or teachings.

However, in contrast to this mindset, the Catholic Church teaches the doctrine of the corpus permixtum—that the Church is a "mixed body" of both sinners and saints. The moral failings of individual members or leaders do not affect the Church’s overall legitimacy or the truth of its doctrines. Christ established the Church with the understanding that sin would exist within it, yet He also promised that the Church’s mission and foundation would remain intact, regardless of human failure (cf. Matthew 16:18).

So, while these modern movements may not officially label themselves Donatists, their approach to assessing the Church’s validity based on moral grounds reflects the same error the Donatists made centuries ago.

152

Do JWs believe Jesus is an angel?

by slimboyfat in

i would suggest:.

the short answer is yes.. the longer answer is a qualified yes, with some caveats.

the short answer is yes because jehovah’s witnesses teach that jesus is michael the archangel, their leader, eldest and most powerful, and have taught this since the very beginning of the religion.

aqwsed12345

@peacefulpete

You argue that the term "tekton" (craftsman or builder) may have been used in the Gospels to align Jesus with the prophetic figure of Messiah ben Joseph, a messianic figure from later Jewish tradition who was expected to suffer and die, with Messiah ben David emerging later as the conquering figure.

While this is an interesting interpretation, it lacks solid historical evidence. The idea of a Messiah ben Joseph is not attested in Jewish writings until much later, primarily in rabbinic literature. By the time the Gospels were written, there was no unified, widespread belief among Jews that the Messiah would take on these two distinct roles. The suffering servant figure in Isaiah 53 was not universally understood to be a messianic figure, and the notion of a suffering Messiah was, in fact, a significant stumbling block for Jews (1 Corinthians 1:23). The idea that Jesus could be both a suffering Messiah and the triumphant Messiah ben David was an unexpected and radical claim for early Christians, not a literary device drawn from the OT.

You mention the common literary trope of a humble beginning followed by a reversal of fate, as seen in figures like David and Moses, and suggest that this might have influenced the portrayal of Jesus in the Gospels. While it’s true that such reversals are common in literature, it doesn’t undermine the historical reliability of the Gospels. In fact, if the Gospel writers were simply crafting a story to fit OT expectations, they would have likely portrayed Jesus in ways that better aligned with the Jewish messianic hopes of their time. However, Jesus' life and ministry repeatedly contradicted those expectations.

For instance:

Many Jews expected the Messiah to be a political and military leader who would overthrow Roman rule, yet Jesus rejected political power (John 6:15).
The idea of a crucified Messiah was not only unexpected but scandalous, as crucifixion was a humiliating and cursed form of death (Deuteronomy 21:23). The evangelists would not have invented such an idea if they were simply trying to "flesh out" a messianic narrative.

The Gospels consistently portray a Messiah who defies conventional expectations, not one who neatly fits into pre-existing tropes or OT patterns. This unexpectedness actually supports their authenticity, as it is unlikely that early Christians would fabricate a story that would be so difficult for both Jews and Gentiles to accept.

You suggest that the expectation that the Messiah would rebuild the Temple may have influenced the portrayal of Jesus as a builder. While it’s true that there was an expectation that the Messiah would restore or rebuild the Temple, Jesus reinterpreted this expectation in a radical way, claiming that His own body was the true Temple (John 2:19-21). This reinterpretation of messianic expectations would not have been a typical or easy narrative to accept, especially for Jewish audiences deeply attached to the physical Temple.

You imply that the Gospel writers were using OT material to craft a story, suggesting a kind of literary artistry rather than historical reporting. However, the Gospels’ inclusion of unfavorable details about Jesus and the apostles supports their credibility. For instance:

The apostles are often portrayed as misunderstanding Jesus, arguing about who is the greatest, and abandoning Him in His final hours.
Jesus Himself is portrayed as being rejected by His own people, mocked, and crucified—a humiliating and cursed form of death.

If the Gospel writers were merely crafting a story to fit OT expectations or literary conventions, they would have likely omitted these unflattering details to present a more convincing, triumphant narrative. Instead, they faithfully recorded these difficult and embarrassing details, which suggests a commitment to accurately reporting the events rather than constructing a neatly packaged story.

You mention that the Gospels were anonymous works and that the names of the authors were assigned later. While it’s true that the Gospels do not explicitly name their authors within the texts themselves, the consistent and early tradition of attributing the Gospels to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John is strong. Early Church Fathers such as Papias, Irenaeus, and others provide external testimony linking these figures to the Gospels.

Moreover, if the early Church had simply invented authorship to lend credibility to these texts, they likely would have chosen more prominent apostles like Peter or James. The fact that two of the Gospels are attributed to non-apostles (Mark and Luke) and that Matthew and John were not the most prominent apostles supports the authenticity of the traditional authorship rather than a deliberate fabrication.

@slimboyfat

You cite passages from the New Testament, such as Mark 10:18 and 13:32, to support the idea that Jesus is subordinate to God. It’s important to note that these passages, while they may seem to suggest subordination, do not imply an essential inequality in divine nature. Rather, they highlight the distinct roles within the Godhead.

· Mark 10:18 ("Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone."): Here, Jesus does not deny His divinity but redirects the focus to God the Father. In context, this is a rhetorical device that invites the person to consider who Jesus truly is. Jesus often spoke in ways that were not immediately clear, leading to deeper reflection.

· Mark 13:32 ("But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."): This reflects the voluntary limitation of Jesus in His human incarnation. Philippians 2:6-7 explains that Jesus "emptied Himself" and took on the form of a servant. This self-limitation in knowledge is not an indication of inferiority in essence but a reflection of His role in the economy of salvation.

These verses point to a distinction in the roles of the Father and the Son, but they do not necessarily imply subordination in terms of nature or essence. Early Christian belief, as evidenced in the New Testament, did not simply view Jesus as a high-ranking angelic being but as divine.

The idea that early Christians conceived of Jesus as merely a "high angelic being" is not supported by the broader New Testament evidence. In fact, the New Testament repeatedly affirms Christ’s divine status in ways that go beyond any angelic or created being:

· John 1:1-3: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made; without Him nothing was made that has been made." This passage places Jesus (the Word) as eternally existing with God and being fully divine. He is not a created angel but the one through whom all things were created.

· Hebrews 1:3: "The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His being, sustaining all things by His powerful word." This verse clearly shows that the Son is not an angelic being, but the very expression of God’s essence, sharing in the full nature of God.

· Colossians 1:15-17: Jesus is described as "the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by Him and for Him." This does not imply that Jesus is a created being but rather that He is supreme over creation, through whom all creation came into being.

These passages present Christ as fundamentally divine, co-equal with God the Father, and far surpassing the role of an angelic figure. The argument that Jesus was merely a high-ranking angelic being misinterprets key New Testament texts.

Werner’s argument that the early Church only developed the doctrine of the Trinity due to philosophical influence and the abandonment of the "original" subordinationist view overlooks the fact that the early Christians grappled with the divinity of Christ from the beginning. The Trinitarian doctrine emerged as a way to understand and systematize the biblical witness to Christ’s divinity alongside monotheism.

As early as the first century, Christians were debating the nature of Christ, not because they were imposing new ideas on the faith, but because they were trying to make sense of the revelation of Christ as fully divine and yet distinct from the Father. The Gospel of John (John 1:1) already places Christ in direct equivalence with God, and the early Church Fathers like Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, and Irenaeus explicitly affirm Christ’s divinity long before the Councils of Nicaea or Constantinople.

The development of the doctrine of the Trinity was a response to heresies like Arianism, which denied the full divinity of Christ. The Church was not introducing new ideas but was defending the belief that had been present from the start: that Jesus is both fully God and fully man. The use of philosophical terminology (like "homoousios") was a way to clarify the Church’s position in the face of heretical challenges, not an abandonment of earlier teaching.

The doctrine of the Trinity is not „a later invention” but a clarification of what was already present in the apostolic witness. Even pre-Nicene Fathers like Tertullian (late 2nd century) used Trinitarian language, describing God as "one in substance, three in persons" (Adv. Praxeas, ch. 2). This shows that the seeds of the doctrine were already present well before the formal definitions of the fourth century.

While some early theologians, particularly in the pre-Nicene period, expressed a form of subordinationis, this view was not universal or permanent. Many of these early thinkers were still grappling with how to articulate the relationship between the Father and the Son. The Nicene Creed clarified this by affirming that the Son is "of one substance" (homoousios) with the Father, fully God.

Theological developments like this do not represent a departure from earlier Christian belief but rather a more precise articulation of the mystery of God’s nature in response to theological challenges. The early Christians believed in the divinity of Christ, but it took time to fully develop the language and framework to express this belief within the bounds of monotheism.