Interesting how the term "voting members" comes up a lot in there.
A H Macmillan talked about"voting" too in his book...
https://archive.org/details/FaithOnTheMarchByA.H.Macmillan/page/n109/mode/2up?q=vote
Sounds really "theocratic" - not!😜
Rumour 144,000 literal number teaching to be abandoned at Annual Meeting
by slimboyfat 135 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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St George of England
It doesn't appear to be the same man. The facial angles and glasses are different.
The first photo of Macmillan and Suiter is from AHM's book "Faith on the March".
I think the second photo is also Macmillan with Haydn Covington though I cannot remember where this photo is from.
George
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FreeTheMasons
@George, do you know who this guy in the black suit is? That's one of the ones we're trying to figure out. He doesn't look like Macmillan. Many of the "Annual Meeting" voting members are unknown to "the rank-and-file."
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aqwsed12345
@FreeTheMasons
The argument that the number "144,000" must be taken literally based on examples of literal numbers in the Bible overlooks several key factors that suggest this number is, in fact, symbolic in the broader context of Revelation. Here are some points to consider in refuting the claim:
1. Symbolic Nature of Revelation
The Book of Revelation is widely recognized as a highly symbolic text, filled with allegory, metaphors, and imagery. While it is true that some numbers in the Bible are taken literally, Revelation is a genre of apocalyptic literature, where numbers often have symbolic meanings. For instance:
- The number 7 is used repeatedly throughout Revelation to symbolize completeness or perfection (seven seals, seven trumpets, seven churches).
- The number 12 represents the people of God, as seen in the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles. The number 144,000 (12 x 12 x 1,000) is likely symbolic of the completeness of God's people, encompassing both Old and New Covenant believers.
The highly symbolic nature of the surrounding text makes it more plausible that the number 144,000 is symbolic rather than literal.
2. Symbolism of the 12 Tribes and Their Inclusion
The number 144,000 is described as coming from the 12 tribes of Israel in Revelation 7:4-8. However, the list of tribes presented in this passage does not correspond exactly to the historical tribes of Israel. For example:
- The tribe of Dan is omitted.
- Joseph and Manasseh are included in a way that differs from traditional lists of the tribes.
This selective arrangement of tribes, combined with the symbolic use of 12, suggests that the 144,000 represents a spiritual "Israel" or the totality of God’s people, not a literal, ethnic Israelite group.
3. Use of Symbolic Numbers Elsewhere
The examples provided (such as Joseph's interpretation of Pharaoh's dreams or the number of stars in Joseph’s own dream) do involve literal numbers. However, these are specific contexts where the surrounding details suggest a literal interpretation. In contrast, Revelation's context, particularly in its apocalyptic framework, leans heavily into the symbolic use of numbers.
Even within the examples provided, the interpretation of certain symbols (like the "beasts" representing kingdoms) shows that numbers in symbolic visions can point to figurative truths rather than strict literalism.
4. The Meaning of "Firstfruits"
Revelation 14:4 refers to the 144,000 as "firstfruits." In biblical language, "firstfruits" often symbolically refer to a representative portion of a larger whole. The 144,000, as the "firstfruits," could be representative of the greater harvest of redeemed people from all nations, as described in the "great multitude" in Revelation 7:9. If the 144,000 were meant to represent only a small, literal group, it would be difficult to reconcile the concept of "firstfruits," which typically implies a larger total group.
5. The Great Crowd and the 144,000
Revelation 7:9 speaks of a "great crowd" that no one could number, from every nation, tribe, people, and language. This group is distinct from the 144,000 and is not limited in number. If one group is literal and numbered, while another is figurative and innumerable, this distinction makes more sense symbolically. Moreover, the great crowd is also depicted as sharing in the salvation of God, reinforcing the idea that salvation is not limited to a literal 144,000.
6. No Explicit Statement that the 144,000 is Literal
The argument claims that because the Bible does not explicitly say the 144,000 is symbolic, it must be literal. However, the Bible also does not say that other symbolic numbers, such as 7 or 12 in Revelation, are symbolic—they are understood as such because of their context. The lack of explicit labeling as "symbolic" is not a valid reason to interpret the number literally, especially given the broader use of symbolism throughout the book.
7. Historical and Theological Consensus
Many theologians and biblical scholars across Christian traditions understand the 144,000 to be symbolic. The number 144,000 is seen as representing the complete number of God's people, drawn from both Jews and Gentiles, throughout history. While Jehovah's Witnesses hold to a literal interpretation, the broader Christian tradition, both Catholic and Protestant, interprets this number symbolically.
Conclusion
While some numbers in the Bible are taken literally, the context of Revelation—and apocalyptic literature more broadly—suggests that the number 144,000 is symbolic. The argument that 144,000 must be literal because some numbers elsewhere in Scripture are literal fails to take into account the unique literary genre of Revelation, the symbolic meaning of numbers throughout the book, and the broader biblical context that emphasizes inclusivity in salvation. The idea of a limited, literal 144,000 ruling with Christ does not align with the overarching message of Revelation, which points to the fullness of God's people from all nations being redeemed.
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FreeTheMasons
There is a difference between "being redeemed" and "being assigned to do a job."
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aqwsed12345
@FreeTheMasons
You should read these:
- Why the Jehovah’s Witnesses are wrong teaching that only 144,000 go to heaven
- The Christian's heavenly hope - The unity of all Christians
- Jehovah's Witness Kingdom, or Government?
- Numbers in the Book of Revelation
- 1 Peter 2:9 says: “But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.” This verse shows that redemption comes with a mission—to proclaim God's excellencies and participate in His work.
- Ephesians 2:10 adds: “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” The redeemed are called to fulfill a specific role in God's plan by doing good works, a kind of "job assignment."
The idea that only the 144,000 are "assigned to a job" as rulers or priests in heaven, while others are merely "redeemed," misunderstands the broader biblical message of shared responsibility in God's kingdom.
- Both the 144,000 and the great multitude in Revelation are described as redeemed (Rev 7:14; Rev 14:4). While the 144,000 may have a specific role, this does not negate the fact that all who are redeemed share in the work of proclaiming God's kingdom.
- Revelation 7:9 describes the great multitude as standing before the throne and the Lamb, participating in worship and service to God. This implies they, too, have a role or function in God’s kingdom, even if it differs from the specific priestly role attributed to the 144,000.
The idea of a distinction between being "redeemed" and being "assigned to a job" is too rigid for the biblical narrative. In the Bible, all who are redeemed are called to serve:
- Matthew 28:18-20, the Great Commission, calls all disciples to go and make disciples of all nations. This is a task, a mission for all believers, not just a select group.
- Romans 12:4-8 speaks of different roles and gifts within the body of Christ, but emphasizes that every believer has a role to play in building up the church.
While it is true that specific roles are mentioned for the 144,000 in Revelation, the notion that only they are "assigned a job" oversimplifies the broader biblical teaching. Redemption always carries with it a calling to serve God, and this applies to all of God's people, not just a select few. The redeemed, whether part of the 144,000 or the great multitude, are called to actively participate in God's redemptive plan for the world. Therefore, the idea of dividing the redeemed into passive recipients and active workers does not hold up to a holistic reading of Scripture.
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FreeTheMasons
Being a human is a gift.
It's such a cool gift that some of the angels coveted it.
Being "redeemed" has nothing to do with whether a person is changed into a spirit creature or not. The "changing into a spirit creature" is illustrative of how the priests had to change their clothes to work in the temple then they'd change back for secular duties.
Angels can materialize. Spirit creatures can materialize, but they aren't supposed to have sex and procreate.
The 144,000 are to be changed into spirit creatures for a specific purpose. They lose one gift and get another, but they are not any more "special" than anyone who stays as a human.
The heavenly government comes down out of heaven which means the 144,000 and Jesus and Jehovah will all materialize bodies and hang out here on earth with humans.
"All things are possible with God."
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aqwsed12345
@FreeTheMasons
Have you even read my links?
To refute the idea that the 144,000 will be changed into "spirit creatures" and cease to be human, let's examine what the Bible actually teaches about salvation, resurrection, and the nature of humanity.
Biblical View of Resurrection: The Bible emphasizes the bodily resurrection, not transformation into spirit creatures. For instance, Jesus’ resurrection was physical, as demonstrated in Luke 24:39 where He says, "Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have." Jesus was resurrected with a glorified body, which shows that being human is integral to the Christian hope, not something to be left behind. The Bible never states that those who are redeemed lose their human nature and become spirit beings. In fact, Philippians 3:21 emphasizes that Christ "will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body," reinforcing the idea of bodily glorification, not a disembodied spiritual state.
No "Spirit Class" Doctrine: The New Testament never mentions a class of humans who will become non-human, spirit creatures. The idea of a heavenly government coming down to earth in Revelation 21:2 is symbolic of God’s presence with His people. The Bible speaks of a "new heaven and new earth" (Revelation 21:1), indicating that the redeemed will inhabit a physical reality where they will live eternally, not as spirit creatures but as glorified humans.
Humanity as God's Image: Humanity was made in the image of God (Genesis 1:26), and there is no suggestion in the Bible that humans were intended to become anything other than human. The redemption of mankind through Jesus Christ is about restoring humanity to its intended glory, not transforming it into a different type of being. Romans 8:23 speaks of the "redemption of our bodies," which refers to the resurrection and glorification of human bodies, not their replacement by spiritual forms.
Misinterpretation of 144,000: The number 144,000 in Revelation is often interpreted symbolically to represent the completeness of God’s people, drawn from all tribes and nations, and there is no clear biblical indication that this group is non-human or different from others saved by Christ. Revelation 14:4 describes them as "firstfruits for God and the Lamb," but this refers to their dedication and special role, not to their becoming spirit beings. They remain part of God’s human creation.
Hebrews 1:14 describes angels as "ministering spirits," but there is no indication in Scripture that humans are ever intended to become like angels or lose their humanity.
In conclusion, the Bible teaches that human beings are meant to be redeemed, glorified, and live forever in a renewed creation, not transformed into spirit creatures. The concept of humans ceasing to be human contradicts biblical anthropology, where humanity is created in God’s image and destined for bodily resurrection, not spiritual disembodiment.
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FreeTheMasons
@aqwsed12345 - no, I haven't read your links yet, I was just addressing what you had posted here, but I can if you want me to. I will check them out a little later. If I checked them out now and responded to both those links and what you just posted, this comment would be too long🙂...
The 144,000 thing in Revelation is about healing the family.
Sometimes in the family, the head of the family will assign chores to various members for the sake of the household. One kid might be assigned to take out the trash. Another might be asked to bring up the laundry or put away the dishes. It's not about rank or redemption - it's just about getting a job done.
I told you I'd check out your links, and I will later today, but for now do you mind if I just address the five points you posted in the comment just above?
1. As regards the resurrection, Jesus was resurrected as a spirit creature. He materialized a human-looking body so as to be able to eat with and hug and walk around with the disciples. There were witnesses to these things. He did all that prior to his ascension to heaven so that we'd know a spirit creature can materialize a human looking body and eat with people, hang out with them, etc. The 144,000 mentioned in Revelation will also be resurrected in the same way. None of the 144,000 who have died have been resurrected yet. When they're resurrected, there will be witnesses just like in Jesus' day. They will all be resurrected at the same time at the end of the tribulation foretold in Revelation and just before going into their assignments in the kingdom.
2. The way of "rulership" that has been taught by Christendom (including Watchtower) has twisted the view of "the kingdom of God." The use of the word "kingdom" is illustrative for people who have always lived in a world of human governments; but such things were not originally intended. There was no "kingdom" in the garden. It was a family arrangement, where Jehovah and the angels materialized and hung out with people. The illustrative "kingdom" descriptions came later. To understand what the "kingdom" means it needs to be framed from the point of view of returning to the original way of life in Eden, which was family, not like some worldly way of governing.
3. "Glory" means love. The worldly idea of glory is some funky glowing power-trip thing, but Jesus showed us what "glory" really was. He was lowly. He was warm. He was kind. His power was in his self-control and wisdom and being approachable despite having immense ability and knowledge. Both the angels and the humans are made in God's image. Having a third kind of creature that also reflects God's image, namely the "new creations" spoken of that are Jesus and the 144,000, does not negate the fact that humans reflect God's glory.
4. All humans redeemed by Christ's blood are "for God and the Lamb." Such ones figuratively become "Israel" since Jesus represents Israel and anyone joining him gains his name. Jesus came as a human and was part of Israel. All those looking to him as "father" in Adam's place inherit that name "Israel" as Jesus' figurative "kids." The 144,000 are a subset taken from that group "Israel." It's for a purpose. The reason they're called firstfruits isn't because all humans become the 144,000 - it's because the 144,000 are made "perfect" first and will interact with Jehovah first to get the rest of humankind ready for when Jehovah comes back to earth in a materialized body to hang out at the end of the 1000 year reign. The 144,000 will be working in their priestly assignments and in order to do that (go back and forth between heaven and earth just as the priests of old went back and forth between the temple and the courtyard) they need to be a new creation. Humans can't physically go to heaven. The 144,000 will never be allowed to procreate. They will lose their "human" inheritance, but God is giving them something else. They are firstfruits because humans will also hang out with God and see Him here on earth.
5. The scriptures are very clear that God in the past has taken a representative sample out of Israel for the purpose of ministering, and those ones did not get the same inheritance as the others. God is fair. Both types of inheritance are awesome. A bird can fly and a fish can swim. Each type of bird has a different gift, some sing better than others, some have prettier feathers. Each type of fish has a different gift. Some can swim faster, others can dive deeper. They have different gifts. No one bird or one fish has a monopoly on everything. Jehovah is fair.
Anthropology is the study of humans. Jesus is called in scripture "the son of man" and he became a spirit creature.
"All things are possible with God."
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aqwsed12345
@FreeTheMasons
The claim that Jesus was resurrected as a "spirit creature" is a fundamental misunderstanding of the resurrection accounts in the New Testament. The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus was resurrected in a physical, glorified body, not as a spirit. In Luke 24:39, Jesus specifically invites His disciples to touch Him and see that He has flesh and bones. He goes on to say that a spirit does not have flesh and bones, thereby refuting the idea that He was a mere spirit. The glorified body Jesus had after His resurrection was capable of transcending physical limitations (like appearing in locked rooms), but it was still very much a physical body. This point is critical in Christian theology because it emphasizes the bodily resurrection of all believers (1 Corinthians 15:42-44), which does not involve a transformation into spirit beings.
The Bible consistently teaches that Jesus’ resurrection was a bodily resurrection, not merely spiritual. The New Testament emphasizes that Jesus' physical body was raised, not just his spirit:
- Luke 24:39: Jesus, appearing to his disciples after his resurrection, says, "Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have." This is a direct statement where Jesus differentiates himself from a spirit, showing that he was resurrected with a physical body. He invites his disciples to touch him, proving he was not merely an immaterial spirit.
- John 20:27: Jesus tells Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." Jesus’ resurrection body still had the wounds from his crucifixion, showing continuity with the body that was crucified, not a temporary or newly created body. Thomas is invited to physically touch these wounds, which a purely spiritual body could not have.
These accounts explicitly refute the idea that Jesus was resurrected as a spirit creature who only materialized a temporary body. He was truly resurrected in the same body that was crucified, glorified but still physical.
Jehovah’s Witnesses argue that Jesus materialized a human body temporarily to demonstrate his ability to do so. However, Scripture portrays the resurrection body as permanent, glorified but still continuous with the earthly body:
- Philippians 3:20-21: "But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body." This passage teaches that the resurrection body of Jesus is glorious, and it is the same kind of body that believers will receive. Jesus’ resurrection body is not just a temporary manifestation but a permanent transformation of his earthly body.
- Romans 8:11: "And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you." The resurrection of Jesus is directly connected to the resurrection of believers' physical bodies. This shows that the resurrection is a bodily event, not a spiritual transformation alone.
Jehovah's Witnesses claim that the 144,000 in Revelation will be resurrected similarly to Jesus, as spirit creatures at the end of the tribulation. However, this interpretation is speculative and not supported by the context of Revelation:
- Revelation 20:4-6 describes the first resurrection, which includes those who were martyred for their faith. It speaks of a bodily resurrection of believers to reign with Christ during the millennium. There is no suggestion in the text that this resurrection is a spiritual transformation or that these individuals are raised as spirit creatures.
- The Bible speaks of the general resurrection of the dead at the end of time, where both the righteous and unrighteous will be physically resurrected (cf. John 5:28-29, Acts 24:15). This demonstrates that resurrection in biblical teaching is always bodily—it is about the restoration and transformation of human bodies, not merely the elevation of a person to a spiritual existence.
Jehovah's Witnesses overlook the significance of the incarnation and its permanence. Jesus did not abandon his human nature after the resurrection; rather, he remains fully God and man: 1 Timothy 2:5: "For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus." This shows that Jesus retains his humanity after his ascension. He continues to be the man Christ Jesus, indicating that his resurrection body was not discarded or temporary.
Jehovah’s Witnesses suggest that the 144,000 will have witnesses to their resurrection similar to Jesus. However, Jesus' resurrection is presented in the Bible as a unique and pivotal event, and no other resurrection is portrayed in the same manner:
- Acts 1:9-11: When Jesus ascended, the disciples witnessed him go into heaven, and angels told them, "This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven." This passage emphasizes that Jesus' return will be visible, just as his ascension was, reinforcing the idea that Jesus’ resurrection and ascension were bodily and not merely spiritual.
- There is no biblical support for the claim that the 144,000 will be resurrected as spirit creatures or that witnesses will observe their resurrection in the same way as they did Jesus’. Scripture teaches the resurrection of the body, and it is not restricted to the idea of purely spiritual resurrection.
The argument that the kingdom is not about rulership but a "family arrangement" that returns to the conditions of Eden is not supported by the broader scriptural understanding of the kingdom of God. The Bible consistently describes the kingdom as a reign and rulership (Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 22:29-30, Revelation 5:10). While it is true that the concept of the kingdom is meant to restore harmony between God and His creation, the Bible makes it clear that Christ and His followers will reign with Him (Revelation 20:4-6). The idea that the 144,000 have a special role in ruling with Christ is derived from a misreading of these passages, where the role of all believers is to share in the kingship of Christ.
The interpretation of "glory" as "love" is an oversimplification. While love is certainly a key aspect of Jesus' character, "glory" in biblical terms refers to the manifestation of divine power, majesty, and holiness (John 1:14; Romans 8:18). Jesus' glory was revealed not only in His humility and kindness but also in His divine authority, power, and eventual resurrection. Romans 8:17 says that believers will share in Christ's glory, which refers to their future glorified state, not merely love or service. This glory is not exclusive to a special group but applies to all believers who are united to Christ.
The claim that the 144,000 are firstfruits because they "are made perfect first" and will work between heaven and earth during the 1,000-year reign is speculative and not supported by a straightforward reading of the Bible. The idea of firstfruits in Scripture (e.g., James 1:18, Revelation 14:4) generally refers to those who are the first to receive the blessings of salvation, not to a special elite group that loses their humanity. Additionally, the idea that the 144,000 will "go back and forth between heaven and earth" is speculative and has no biblical basis. The Bible does not describe the saints in such a role. The teaching that the 144,000 will lose their human inheritance is contrary to the biblical promise of bodily resurrection and eternal life in a new heaven and new earth (Revelation 21:1-3). The entire body of believers will dwell with God in this renewed creation, not just a select few.
The analogy of birds and fish having different gifts to support the idea that the 144,000 have a different inheritance than the rest of humanity is flawed. The Bible teaches that all believers—those who trust in Christ—are co-heirs with Him (Romans 8:17). There is no indication of a two-tier system of salvation, where some believers receive a heavenly inheritance and others remain on earth in a lesser state. The notion that the 144,000 will receive a "different" inheritance contradicts the clear teaching of the New Testament that all believers will share in the same glory and inheritance (Colossians 3:23-24).
The claim that Jesus was resurrected as a spirit creature and merely materialized a temporary body to interact with his disciples is contradicted by biblical evidence. The New Testament clearly presents Jesus’ resurrection as bodily, with physical continuity between the body that was crucified and the body that was raised. This teaching extends to the resurrection of all believers, who will be raised in glorified physical bodies, not merely spiritual beings. The idea that the 144,000 will be resurrected as spirit creatures is speculative and lacks clear biblical foundation. The resurrection in Scripture is about the restoration and transformation of the physical body, not just the elevation of a person to a spiritual existence.
The biblical doctrine of resurrection and salvation affirms that all believers—whether Jew or Gentile, male or female—are united in Christ and share the same inheritance in the new creation. The idea of a select group becoming "spirit creatures" and ministering between heaven and earth lacks any solid biblical foundation. The 144,000 mentioned in Revelation should be understood symbolically as representing the complete and redeemed people of God, not a literal, exclusive group. Salvation and resurrection are not about being divided into different classes, but about being united with Christ and sharing in His glory, which includes a bodily resurrection and eternal life with God in the new heavens and new earth.