Oh now I see why I forgot #4 - LOL, rolling in laughter actually! Being a 30's brat myself the idea of feminizing God is outlandish! But why not? Who are we to say what His gender is or that He even has gender. We have made him "male" because of our culture I suspect and we don't want to call Him "it" because again that depersonalizes God. Jesus gave him the Father persona and so I accept that but then I also accept Scripture as having "some kind of authority" in my life even though many arguments are out there arguing differently. And I see many on this Board that do not accept the Bible as divinely inspired any longer or even doubting there is anymore than a First Cause. That saddens me but I am trying to adjust my thinking to comprehend this.
saltyoldlady
JoinedPosts by saltyoldlady
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32
Perhaps these are REALLY revealing questions!
by Terry inwe treat the other differently the more we know about them.. if we meet a powerful official we act, talk and think differently while in their presence.
(rather than a homeless person, a gang member, a saleman, etc.).
how much more so this affects how we think and act concerning who we worship!.
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32
Perhaps these are REALLY revealing questions!
by Terry inwe treat the other differently the more we know about them.. if we meet a powerful official we act, talk and think differently while in their presence.
(rather than a homeless person, a gang member, a saleman, etc.).
how much more so this affects how we think and act concerning who we worship!.
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saltyoldlady
Terry - I like your threads. They are always examples of excellent thinking. In fact I am rather in awe of your brain power and not at all sure I can match wits with you but I'll bite this once - wish I had a printer so I could print your comments off - I have to operate from memory which at my age ain't too great - but my choice in this list is #2 - probably because that is what I was indoctrinated with for 40 plus years. Hard to step out of a mold - but it might well have been the biggest drawing hook for me to become a member of the WTS of all. It made God someone I could relate to as a father and have a personal relationship with - some would say that relationship is "imaginary" at best and I'd have a difficult time to convince anyone else of any thing different but emotionally I am very wired into it. And everything that happens gets interpreted with that set of "rose-colored" specs hooked atop my beaked nose. This makes God someone I can look to for guidance, help, support - all the things a Father does. And it makes Jesus Christ my brother - that is another relationship I have come to love. So I have anthropormophosed God - think I just made up a word there but you get the thought.
The first choice seems to be where most of the Christian world today lies - and I have contemplated the results of such a belief. For one it makes God "mysterious" - difficult to relate to. For two if Jesus Christ and God are "one" (leave the Holy Spirit out of this for a moment) it makes it possible to contemplate my being "One" with God, translates to "equal with God" for former WTS adherents and of course a big no-no. I have reasoned (if we can call it that - probably not - rationalized a better term) - that people choose #1 because they want to be "gods" themselves. A very slanted and ugly characterization from a WTS adherent view. I know there are "tons" almost literally tons of scriptures using the terminology of Jesus and God being One, One in many many different ways. We used to like to specify "in union with" rather than just straight One.
I have been recently reworking this area in my theology - a long ways from finished yet but I have come to see ever so many ways that Jesus and Jehovah are One or in agreement and even have accepted the idea that the Alpha and Omega terminology that used to hook us up in Revelation disputes might be reconciled as Jesus having been given Jehovah's title there, also as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, which some could say belongs only to Jehovah. I am currently "fighting" my way through John and it is literally a fight because his writings are most often the ones we used to argue about at the doors.
I get so angry at people that say Jehovah's Witnesses teach Jesus does not have "divinity." (And I'm not even one anymore - LOL) But the way I read the words Jesus is "divine" - of the source of God and we too are given "divine nature" through him so we can be one with other believers and Christ even as Christ is one with his Father. It seems what they mean by three in one is something different than what I am perceiving and for me it borders on Satan's ploy "You can be like God" - I want to avoid that at all costs so I prefer choice #2 over #1.
#3 seemed to "depersonalize" God for me - it may actually be a more accurate representation scientifically - it just alienates and separates Jehovah from me. To me he has emotions as well as mental capacity - to intellectualize him makes him cold. Recently I was watching a DVD by Thomas Bearden (a nuclear physicist) who described the particle world outside of time and space dimensions. That is a difficult one to wrap the mind around but technically speaking it seemed he was saying all particles are "One" outside of these separation devices of space and time dimension. So to say Jesus, Jehovah, and the Holy Spirit are "one" may be correct. I am not sure how to handle that in my emotional, spiritual, or physical makeup. In fact I even separate Holy Spirit off into its own little category too - as WTS taught us - easier to classify and understand but Holy Spirit does seem to display personality characteristics to the nth degree so how does one answer those quandries?
Your 4th point or view I've forgotten already. But at least I've made a stab at it and that is all it is I realize - stabbing in the darkness trying to glean light - how is that for an oxymoron. But I do think your threads are worthy of far more response than they are garnering. Maybe others feel spell-bound by you too. Hope not.
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Is everyone on here disassociated??
by happi2b inso i don't understand it seems to me from the posts that i have read just about everyone is disassociated.. just wondering if that's true or if i am not the only one on here still within the organization..
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saltyoldlady
Okay here goes - I think if you try typing in 144000.110mb.com/607 in your search bar you will find the lovely material I was trying to tell you about. At least that worked for me.
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Is everyone on here disassociated??
by happi2b inso i don't understand it seems to me from the posts that i have read just about everyone is disassociated.. just wondering if that's true or if i am not the only one on here still within the organization..
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saltyoldlady
Welcome Happi2be - I am in fact disassociated - a choice I made because of doctrinal errors becoming evident to me and because of the fact research into the 607 BCE view as the date of destruction for Jerusalem proved it to be point blank wrong! A marvelous book to read is The Gentile Times Reconsidered by Carl Olof Jonnson - buy it if you can afford to do so - you will never regret the purchase. It is filled with marvelous Bible research that will prove helpful whether you decide to join or not join the WTS -
or if your Bible Study Teachers object to exposing yourself to both sides of an issue saying he has been disfellowshipped treat yourself to finding out just how a genuine Christian making a true search for truth handles himself inspite of being rejected for lovingly presenting his exquisite and painstaking research he had done to the Governing Body for their consideration. It was never his desire to be disfellowshipped nor to leave Jehovah and Jesus Christ - only to answer a Bible Student's question as to why the WTS chooses 607 over the accepted and established date of 587 BCE for the destruction of Jerusalem. You will find this book a real treat.
But if you prefer to heed their restrictions upon your search and investigative process then another book I can recommend to you that does not cause any trespassing of the boundaries being established for you by the WTS (not written by an apostate, disfellowshipped, or diassociated individual) but rather utilizing only quoted material from WTS publications and journals collected together by Edmond C. Gruss, an excellent researcher, entitled Jehovah's Witnesses - Their Claims, Doctrinal Changes and Prophetic Speculation, What does the record show? You owe it to yourself to obtain a copy of this magnificent work also and will undoubtedly want to own it personally especially should you join up so you will be abreast of what the latest correct positions on various doctrines are. You will quickly avail yourself of much information that will most likely put you in a more knowledgeable position than even the lovely sincere dedicated people studying with you.
One of my favorite threads that I have recently discovered right here on this site is one posted by Jonathan Dough. I wish I knew how to move his site to this spot so you could just click on it for your perusal but I am not yet very computer literate so maybe one of the more versatile contributors can do that for me in a future post. Wishing you many blessings in your future investigations. Salty
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When do you begin counting time?
by pubtruth infor those who were in or still are.. when do/did you begin counting time?
as you left for the house group, or after the meeting was over?
did you count the car trip to and from?
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saltyoldlady
You people have me rolling in laughter - think my sides will split. I used to be one of those do it by the book types - didn't start until I rang the first doorbell (and no the KH didn't have a doorbell - maybe they should install one now that I think about it) and then when the brother asked me to transport a sister to her bible study I'd stop my time for the 5 minutes it took to do that task and start back up when I rang the next doorbell. I was under the tutelage of a very persnickety elder who taught me these things - guess where he ended up - you guessed right - the GB. But we all felt "so righteous" - his son though was smarter than us cookies - he'd use the telephone at the hall to call some return visit or even his bible study and then start his time with that act. Really works great if you call someone you KNOW has already gone off to work.
And Man in Black - you must have served the same place as me because we had an elderly brother that did exactly that - would never never go into the donut shop for a break so we'd make sure to bring him something gooey and sweet which he graciously wolfed down while we sped on to the next visit or maybe another donut shop that had a better brand of coffee. Only I really liked that old brother - he just had his eccentricities is all. We got him to come in with us once and he overheard someone at the counter say oh here comes the "God Squad" and he was so offended we could not dissuade him from his rigid stance again.
Then years later when I moved out into the rural territory I realized the need to loosen up - we had one dear sister who was an oldtimer raised in the WTS - her parents started some of the congregations in Mexico and elsewhere - when we would gather a full carload of sisters - 5 of us packed tight and go on return visits for the whole morning she would not begin her time until she made her first return visit which meant one time she didn't get to start until 11:20 AM and she was trying to pioneer that month. She was so pissed and peeved that she made all of us feel miserable and I decided if counting time does that to us we should STOP the practice period. We had actually had a wonderful morning because everyone's visits had been home and we had had meaningful calls everytime which take a half hour at least, especially when one considered how far we drove to get there - there wasn't much point to only making a ten minute call and then buzzing off again. It could take an hour to reach some of the territories in that area. So I noticed another practice going on - they would make the fake RV right around the hall or in town and then count the long travel time. It occurred to me if that was okay with Jehovah then obviously it was okay to count the time in travel period and a pretense of observing nit-picking rules was unnecessary. I didn't make myself very popular by expressing my views. But working the rurals loosened up my time-counting procedures considerably.
That is really one practice the WTS needs to DUMP - bigtime. I fear the time they collected from us as bogus as their own reporting of memorial partakers.
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I might have less than 2 months to live---
by moshe inso says harold camping-.
-(newser) - as you may have heard, the rapture is coming on may 21, 2011. self-taught radio and internet preacher harold camping is sure of it, and he's got iron-clad logic on his side.
see, by examining carbon dating, tree rings, and other highly scientific data, he's concluded that noah started loading his ark in 4990 bc, he tells usa today.
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saltyoldlady
I like the new ending date being set for 2018 better - that would be just 144 years since 1874 - Christ's first arrival for the WTS and 144 years after the beginning of the 7th day too. Should I send them a letter? No wait - they have to make it far enough off in the future they are all already dead so they don't have to face the music of a failed prophecy. 2034 wouldn't even work for all of them - maybe we should push it to 2044 - that works out as a double for Isaac's sacrifice per my new system and they could go back to Israel's double prophecies - oh I think they need a crazy old lady on the GB - women's rights thing - that could be SUCH FUN!
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STOP being naive - the time has come to use your PRIMAL SENSES
by Dogpatch ina lot of us spend a great deal of time on this board and elsewhere discussing the intricate doctrines of the .
watch tower as if they were legitimate arguments from the bible.. one of these is the issue of blood and blood transfusion.. another is "who is the faithful and discreet slave?".
or "what is the definition of "generation" given in the bible, so we can prove the witnesses wrong?.
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saltyoldlady
Randy - I dust perceive you are lifting your leg on the tree called "principle-centered" living. There are still people out there who will die for a cause and they are not naive or minus common sense either. It appears to me you have been bitten by the PRIMAL SENSES bug but everything does not boil down to just instinctual behavior unless of course you are a dog. (And I think too highly of you to place you in that category so maybe we just better label me a lover of naivety - I'll happily wear that banner and continue deluding myself I actually worship in spirit and that truth can be found minus dog poop and grisly old bones.)
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My cat
by imconfused inthis is probably the stupidest thing to ever be wriiten on here, but i need to just talk/type it out.. my cat got run over last night & killed, i am a complete mess.
my hubby has gone away with work today for a few days today so im on my own & i cant cope.
i know loads of you will think, it was just a cat get over it, but dam i hurt so much.
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saltyoldlady
My heart goes out to you - there are no words I can say that will erase the grief. It runs deep into the soul. And every pet is a distinct creature with his own personality that cannot be replaced. The best I can suggest is keep treasuring the good memories - the happy times together and you will feel your pet's presence if only in the heart. And know that God's purpose is to eventually satisfy the desire of every living thing - that includes our pets as well as ourselves. Today is temporary - the future is everlasting.
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saltyoldlady
Many long years ago I was in a congregation that was extremely wealthy - unusual for WTS groups - but this one had over a half dozen multi-millionaires - owner of a fishing fleet, one made his money in the insurance business, several were sharp shooters at investing, one was a medical doctor, professor and researcher with enough money just from his medical equipment patents alone to afford three exquisite homes - one in town, one in the country with a small stable for horses, plus a ranch in Montana for special vacations, his own airplane, and yacht - but the congregation was quite small - about 60 publishers on the average. Yes they had a few down and out - some who came temporarily to attach themselves to see if they could work the money but these people were tight with their money - didn't just hand it out - so those would circulate out in short order and new ones would show up.
But the thing that really got to me was when they decided the hall needed renovation - it was a small hall - can't remember how many it officially sat but about 100 bodies would fill it up tight. The hall needed $15,000 to do the job they wanted to do - put in new carpets, some fresh paint, replacement of a couple windows, clean mold out of the heating ducts, replace some moldy plasterboard in the entry, and put in an air conditioner in an area that only gets about two hot days per year (defined as making it all the way up to high 80's or low 90's )etc. Anyone of these elders could have footed the $15,000 out of their own pocket with ease, between the six that were super wealthy they could have each forked over $2,500 with no pain - they all traveled on spectacular cruises yearly, took regular trips to exotic far off lands, the PO lived on a cruise ship about half of the year because that was the only time his wife felt good, etc. - they drove luxury cars, most lived in luxury homes, quess what they did - apply for a loan from the WTS - a low interest loan to be paid back over many many years span - I could hardly believe it. Guess it's called good business sense? LOL,
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Regular Pioneers: How low will the WT go?
by Alfred inso i just came across an article in the watchtower (december 1, 1959 page 726) where it mentions that pioneers (or should i say culportuers?
) in the 1930s had to put in a minimum of 150 hoursper month in field circus with the phonograph (i'm guessing the record being played was rutherford's "millions" speech).
i have to wonder how many pioneers the wt would actually have nowadays if this were still the minimum monthly quota and if they'd still have to stand on a street corner with some sort of audio system... in today's economy, i really don't think they'll find much more than 2 potential candidates per circuit... which is obviously the reason that the gb keeps lowering the bar... .
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saltyoldlady
Me thinks they will lower the hour requirement as far as they need to to keep saying "We've had an INCREASE in pioneers" - it's all a stats game.