Posts by Quendi

45

Did You Ever Make the Pilgrimage?

by Quendi in

jw
friends

how many of you have ever visited one of the branch offices or world headquarters of jehovah's witnesses?

i was an active witness for nearly thirty years and was associated with the cult for more than thirty-five before finally walking away for good last year.

during all those years i never made a trip to brooklyn bethel.

Quendi

@Meeting Junkie No More: Thanks for sharing your experiences and I hope you have many more. I know about the Santiago di Compostela, and doing it on foot is the proper way to take it in from all that I have heard. I have never heard of Externstein and you have piqued my curiosity about that. I suppose the closest I've come to anything like it was visiting Stonehenge in 2002. I really enjoyed that and would like to go again. I've heard others talk about Mont St. Michel in the same way you have described it and that puts it high on my bucket list.

As for seeing anything WTS related, I'm glad I saved my money and my time. All the people I've talked to about their visits were all aglow when they returned and said they wanted to go again. More power to them if that is what floats their boat. But there is no way a group of factories and offices can compare with Amritsar's Golden Temple, St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican, or Cordoba's Grand Mosque.

Quendi

25

So why did the organisation cause you anxiety or depression?

by TimothyT in

in regards to my other post regarding attending counselling as a jw, i was wondering what it was about being a jw that caused you to be anxious, stressed or depressed?.

for me, i knew that the person i wanted to be was constantly being supressed by the wt.

there was a battle going on in my head between who i wanted to be and who they wanted me to be.

Quendi

I sought counseling after my very best friend committed suicide. I couldn't understand how any of Jehovah's Witnesses could do such a thing, and then subsequently found myself on the brink of self-murder. My therapist was absolutely wonderful as she gently helped me ask the right questions including some about basic Witness teachings and beliefs. Those counseling sessions saved my life.

Quendi

27

Lol at Awake quote about gayz!

by TimothyT in

are you a member of the homosexual community?

) can you say that you have honestly found satisfaction and fulfillment in that way of life?

(being true to myself has brought me great happiness yes.

Quendi

@Mary: Ah, my dear, I can remember a WTS magazine article which applied Romans 1:32 to homosexuals saying that they were deserving of death. Then it added the qualifying statement that it was up to God and Christ to carry out any death sentence against them. I can't remember which magazine issue carried the statement, but you can imagine how it made me feel. That is why I wasn't surprised about the most recent comparison of apostates to the slaughtered Baal-worshipers of Jehu's time and the WTS implying that present-day dissidents deserved the same fate. The mindset of this cult has not changed. If its leaders had their way, all of us on this board would be stoned to death and then buried in unmarked graves.

Quendi

45

Did You Ever Make the Pilgrimage?

by Quendi in

jw
friends

how many of you have ever visited one of the branch offices or world headquarters of jehovah's witnesses?

i was an active witness for nearly thirty years and was associated with the cult for more than thirty-five before finally walking away for good last year.

during all those years i never made a trip to brooklyn bethel.

Quendi

My maternal grandfather went to Lourdes, France when he served in the U.S. Army during World War I. The visit made a very deep impression on this black man from Alabama which lasted for the rest of his life. I myself have wanted to tour the Vatican and see all of its treasures as well as the collection of churches in Moscow's Kremlin complex. Mont St. Michel and Beijing's Forbidden City are also on my list. But for me, a "pilgrimage" means visiting some natural wonder and there are plenty of those on my bucket list I've yet to see.

Quendi

27

Lol at Awake quote about gayz!

by TimothyT in

are you a member of the homosexual community?

) can you say that you have honestly found satisfaction and fulfillment in that way of life?

(being true to myself has brought me great happiness yes.

Quendi

I remember when that article was published in Awake! and it made a tremendous impact on me at the time. It convinced me that my sexual identity was one of deliberate choice and that I could change it if I wanted. I was young, naive, and sincerely believed that the WTS was God's organization so what was printed in the publications had to be the truth. I am so glad I no longer think that way, but at the time I thought this was the right path to follow.

Looking back now over a thirty-five year perspective, I have to wonder how much real harm articles like this did to many Witnesses, young men in particular. Sadly, the one cited in this thread was not the first or last of its kind. There were others that were nothing more than fairy-tales, filled with examples of gay men who had found "a loving Christian woman" to marry, had settled down, fathered children, and were now living happily ever after with their families. The WTS maintained this was the course of action for any gay man to follow, and if he did he could be certain of Jehovah's blessing upon him and all he did. I have often wondered what the status of the men referenced in those articles is now. Are they still living 'happily ever after'? Are they still married, or did they finally realize they were living a lie and leave their spouses? Are they even still alive or did they choose suicide as the only way out as so many in their situation have? Naturally, you will read of no follow through in WTS publications.

When I was in the long struggle with my judicial committee about my reinstatement, one of the elders gave me a thick wad of papers containing all the WTS thinking on homosexuality as presented in the publications down through the years, asking me to look up the references. He was quite upset when I told him that my research had shown that WTS teaching on homosexuality was "inadequate, incomplete, and insufficient." The falsehoods, half-truths, and misapplied scriptures made the information completely useless. Furthermore, I knew that what I was telling him was true from life experience--my own and that of other gay men I knew. I didn't need the ivory tower musings of old men in Brooklyn to tell me otherwise.

The WTS attitude and teaching about homosexuality was a big factor--though not the only one--in my decision to sever all ties with it. I reasoned that if this organization truly was led by holy spirit, it would have put forth the fruitage of the spirit in its dealings with people like me. But instead of "love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-contol", all I received were anger, hatred, bigotry and ignorance. It took time, but I finally made good my escape and have been all the better for it.

Quendi

45

Did You Ever Make the Pilgrimage?

by Quendi in

jw
friends

how many of you have ever visited one of the branch offices or world headquarters of jehovah's witnesses?

i was an active witness for nearly thirty years and was associated with the cult for more than thirty-five before finally walking away for good last year.

during all those years i never made a trip to brooklyn bethel.

Quendi

Hello All,

How many of you have ever visited one of the branch offices or world headquarters of Jehovah's Witnesses? I was an active Witness for nearly thirty years and was associated with the cult for more than thirty-five before finally walking away for good last year. During all those years I never made a trip to Brooklyn Bethel. I was never interested in going. When I would hear other Witnesses rhapsodize about how important it was for any true believer to visit Brooklyn, Wallkill, and later Patterson, I would quietly shake my head. Then I would say that their attitude reminded me of the religious pilgrims in "Babylon the Great" who felt their faith was incomplete unless they went to Mecca, the Vatican, the "Holy Land", or different saints' shrines. The puzzled and even dirty looks that comment elicited were most instructive.

One Witness took me to task for this. He couldn't understand why I wouldn't want to visit the "House of God" in New York and see the New World Society in action as it produced the materials Witnesses depended on for their faith and field ministry. He told me my remarks revealed a complete lack of appreciation for "Jehovah's organization" and that I needed to reevaluate my feelings and beliefs. I replied that I saw no difference in attitude that Witnesses had about visiting Bethel with what other religious people thought about their so-called "holy places". After all, there were plenty of printing concerns in metropolitan Denver I could visit if I wanted to see how printed materials were produced; plenty of farms and ranches I could visit in rural Colorado that did exactly what was being done at Wallkill, and there was the University of Colorado in Boulder which had educational facilities that were far superior to anything I would see in Patterson. The attitude Witnesses had about their operations and where they were done was nothing short of idolatry as far as I was concerned and I wanted nothing to do with it. The Witness decided that I had a "bad attitude" and decided to drop the subject.

Have any of you had a similar experience? Or if you have made the pilgrimage to New York or some other branch facility, what did you think about it?

Quendi

31

Governing Body arrogance vs. Legal Department's pragmatism - do you think there will be a slip-up at some point?

by sir82 in

jw
friends

the recent & surprising developments in the uk and australia got me thinking..... the governing body of jehovah's witnesses is nothing if not arrogant.

they consider themselves "god's channel of communication", stopping just short of claiming divine inspiration.

they believe that they and they alone are the masters of "christ's belongings" and are answerable only to him.. the watchtower society's legal department carefully crafts gb decisions so as not to put the watchtower society's assets or prestige as risk.

Quendi

I agree with the analysis neverendingjourney has given. The Governing Body and its modus operandi are once more cloaked in secrecy and we really have no idea what is going on at the highest levels of the organization. Ray Franz pulled the curtain back with his books, but the organization survived his exposes. As for listening to their legal eagles, I think that is true--to an extent. Their input with the new Flock book is evident, They also have much to say about the mundane day-to-day operations of the various entities under the WTS umbrella. But when it comes to formulating religious dogma and practice, I believe the Governing Body reserves that right exclusively to itself. They made that abundantly clear in the study article "The 'Faithful Steward' and Its Governing Body" which appeared in the 15 November 2009 Watchtower. That was when they told all those who professed to be anointed that their thinking and suggestions were neither wanted nor needed, and that the Governing Body alone would teach the things all Jehovah's Witnesses had to believe and know.

I am still hoping for the WTS to collapse. As I have posted elsewhere, I do not think we can look at present trends as indicators of when that might happen. Both the Berlin Wall and the Soviet Union collapsed swiftly despite the tight controls exercised over each. Like a train looming in the distance which then quickly roars past, their disintegration occurred before authorities could muster any counteractive measures. I wouldn't be surprised if the WTS suffers the same swift collapse. Whenever and however it happens, I can only hope to be alive to see it.

Quendi

90

I told the baptist church pastor that I'm gay!

by TimothyT in

his reaction wasnt as liberal as i hoped it would be.

he said that we needed to discuss it.

however, gone are the days where im putting myself in the firing line and not sticking up for myself.

Quendi

I have carefully read the views shared on this thread. I can understand PaintedToeNail's question and I appreciated TimothyT's thoughtful reply. And irondork is absolutely right to say that there was a time when I was "consumed" by the question of my sexual identity. I have not discussed that in depth here because I had a wonderful mentor who has been the kind of sounding board I needed as I sorted out my own issues.

For those who are not gay, it is almost impossible to understand the spiritual abuse the WTS puts LGBT people through. You endure years of self-denial, self-hatred, and the unacknowledged belief that you will never be good enough for fellowship with God or man. The organization's emphasis on "traditional" family, an emphasis which itself is badly flawed, doesn't help matters. You see the fruitage in the suicide rate among Witness youths; the bad marriages that were entered because the WTS taught that marriage was a "cure" for homosexuality; and the lives of "quiet desperation" others lead because they are forced into a celibacy that itself is unnatural.

I am glad that TimothyT, irondork, myself, and others can come here for understanding, counsel and support. Escaping the strangling coils of the WTS is only a first step in a long journey. There are decisions to be made about what direction to take one's life. The relationships one enjoyed in the WTS are now broken and must be replaced. Where does one go if he or she wants to be part of a loving, accepting spiritual community? And if the decision is to renounce religion or spiritual interests altogether, how is the resultant vacuum filled? These are questions all of us here are asking, and they affect both gay and straight people alike. Gay people, in my opinion, have a steeper path to tread because even though many societies are growing more tolerant of homosexuality, they contain people steeped in bigotry and prejudice. Straight people don't face that kind of hostility.

I have found that openly discussing issues like homosexuality is the best approach to dispelling ignorance, hatred and fear. Please understand that I am not accusing anyone here of harboring those attitudes. It's just that when someone asks the kind of question PaintedToeNail has, the best approach is to answer it directly and honestly as TimothyT did. All of us can benefit from the resultant discussion and I like to think that all who have participated in this thread have come away with a better understanding of the different points of view that have been shared. My friends, let's continue talking to each other. We have seen the effects that choking off discussion and enforcing a narrow orthodoxy has had with the WTS being an egregious example of this. Having repudiated it, we must be vigilant to preserve the freedom we now enjoy.

Quendi

43

Shunning..... at Meetings ???

by IMHO in

jw
friends

can someone explain why jws shun disfellowshipped ones when they are at their meetings (i.e.

making moves to come back)?.

i can understand why you may not want to 'socialize' with ones who do not share your beliefs.. but surely shunning such ones at the 'meetings'; assuming they are not there to cause trouble, is unloving; should they not be welcomed like the prodigal son.. true christians are known by the 'love' they show.

Quendi

And to follow up on JW GoneBad's point, if you are disfellowshipped, the absolute worst meeting to attend is the Memorial. I went to five of them while disfellowshipped and they were the most horrid experiences I ever had. Then I made up my mind to never enter a Kingdom Hall again, so when the Memorial came around this year, I gladly skipped it.

The shunning is bad enough during a regular meeting, but a Memorial celebration only intensifies it. You sit in a corner while people go out of their way to make you feel unwelcome. You see them wearing big smiles as they greet other Witnesses and "guests" while they won't look in your direction unless that is absolutely necessary. And when the "celebration" ends, you had better make a quick exit, all the quicker if another congregation is coming in after yours for their observance.

If ever there was a meeting on the Witness calendar when a special effort would be made to welcome "lost sheep", you'd think the Memorial would be it. But no, instead of a polite welcome and a few encouraging words, you are made to feel unwanted, unloved, and unappreciated. I found myself wondering why I had made any effort to come at all until I reminded myself that my absence would be noted and held against me when I submitted another reinstatement letter and met with the judicial committee. That was the only reason I had for coming until I finally decided I had had enough.

Quendi

43

Shunning..... at Meetings ???

by IMHO in

jw
friends

can someone explain why jws shun disfellowshipped ones when they are at their meetings (i.e.

making moves to come back)?.

i can understand why you may not want to 'socialize' with ones who do not share your beliefs.. but surely shunning such ones at the 'meetings'; assuming they are not there to cause trouble, is unloving; should they not be welcomed like the prodigal son.. true christians are known by the 'love' they show.

Quendi

The Bible is clear about how cases of wrongdoing should be handled. There are no "star chambers" of three elders who judge. In Old Testament days, cases like this were given a public hearing before the city gate, by that city's elders, with the entire process done in the open. That way everyone could see what was going on and the judgment reached was one the entire community could support. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, in the New Testament that even remotely resembles WTS proceedings. And Paul's words to the Corinthian congregation don't indicate any secret proceedings either. Everyone knew who the wrongdoer was and what the problem was. This was not a case for elders' eyes and ears only--far from it.

Jesus said if a brother goes wrong, approach him privately about it. If he doesn't listen, take along one or two more so that the matter is confirmed by two or three witnesses. If he won't listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he wouldn't listen to the congregation, then he was to be treated like a Gentile or tax collector, but even that didn't mean to practice the harsh shunning Witnesses and others do. And the story of the Prodigal Son clearly shows the attitude of Christ and God on how repentant sinners should be viewed and treated. None of these examples leaves room for shunning wrongdoers when they attended meetings, particularly, as Awen points out, when these meetings were held in private homes back in the first century.

For all the talk of following "Bible principles" the WTS makes, what is plain is that this organization is a counterfeit version of Christianity. It's organizational structure is nothing like what existed in the first century. Instead, it has set up a false theocracy whose only interest is controlling the lives of the rank and file. My advice to those who find themselves expelled is to get themselves as far away from this cancerous group as possible and live the life you are meant to live. Returning to the WTS is like the dog that returns to its own vomit.

Quendi