Posts by DesirousOfChange

21

Have you read Crisis of Conscience and still remained a JW in good conscience?

by mankkeli in

jw
friends

i am just curious if anyone read crisis of conscience and still remained a jw with a good conscience?..

DesirousOfChange

DING: But some JWs DO check these things out and STILL stay loyal to the WTS anyway.

AGENT ZERO: i recently started reading CoC. i have a good conscience because i know i'm just seeking truth. have also remained an ok-ish JW outwardly, in terms of what the members of the congregation think of me. but i think what you mean to ask is if they could stay a Believing-JW.. and THAT i doubt.

I think AZ says it right on. They APPEAR to stay loyal to the WTS. Anyone who goes against all the apostate warnings and reads CoC, has already given up their "JW trained conscience". They have already partially disconnected. They may remain a JW for personal reasons. And, they may maintain what they consider a "good conscience". But, they were already past the point of being "a JW in good conscience".

What path their life takes from this point on is a tough decision with lots of things that factor into it. Family. Friends. Relationships.

DOC

24

For those still "in" the W.T , a Moral Question.

by wobble in

jw
friends

for those who are still in the jw/wt religion for whatever reason , and to whatever extent, i ask :.

how high would you rate your moral standards ?.

where do you stand on telling lies, upholding truth, deceiving others etc ?.

DesirousOfChange

BOC -- you said it quite eloquently.

It's a compromise. You do what's best for you and your family. Getting indignant and playing the DA card just never made sense to me. That's playing by WT rules. Why give them the easy way out. I don't think I'd ever get to that decision.

Hang in there for as long as you have to do so. Take what you want and leave the rest.

DOC

37

COs visit sep 2011 - feb 2012

by dozy in

apologies if already discussed - the second cos talk discusses 4 "important" areas where jws need to consider the biblical principles involved.. answers on a postcode ( clue - one word - 2 letters - 1st letter is "n" ).

should a true christian?:.

(1) use a social networking website.

DesirousOfChange

Pretty soon they'll have everybody moving to a commune in Wyoming.

I thought it was upstate New York???

21

Have you read Crisis of Conscience and still remained a JW in good conscience?

by mankkeli in

jw
friends

i am just curious if anyone read crisis of conscience and still remained a jw with a good conscience?..

DesirousOfChange

Anyone who finally picked up CoC and read it WHILE AS A JW already had gotten past the point of letting others establish values for their conscience. Some time ago I would a NEVER have read that book or seen and R-rated movie. A person had to have standards. Like most good, loyal JWs, I had no problem with letting someone else set my standards for me. That's been the biggest change for me. I am thinking for myself. I now question everything. It's actually kinda bad sometimes. I can't read anything without scrutinizing it to see what kind of scam they might try to be pulling over my eyes. I feel that I have been so deceived for so long, by someone that I was certain was trustworthy.

So, your original question may seem at first like an oxymoron -- how can a good JW read CoC and still have a good conscience?

But it's not. It just means that the JW has grown personally to the point that they have become able to establish their own conscience and standards instead of letting someone else impose their ideas on them.

That kind of thinking will make a big difference in other things in their life as well.

DOC

11

Watchtower Quoted in a book about how to lie.

by Sharpie in

link.

the book is about basicly how to protect yourself online with identity fraud.

this chapter had quoted good old theocratic warfare in how to not give people your ssn or any other information.

DesirousOfChange

I include JW Elders™ in that group. They haven't bothered to darken my door in years to express concern over our absenteeism from the KH, and yet when they hear a rumour about us, they rush on over to find out whether what they've heard is true or not. I have no desire to validate their stupid little Napoleon complex, nor do I recognize any claims of authority they make, therefore, I consider them to be outside the realm of those entitled to private personal information.

They think GOD gives them authority. Reality is, they only have any authority over you that you give them.

DOC

22

JWs in the UK diferrent to USA or elsewhere?

by punkofnice in

i am in the uk.. i have an ex-jw relative in the usa.

he says that having lived ib both the uk and the usa that the jws are different from the uk to the usa.. how true could this be?.

at least int he area i grew up the term 'mother' for the organization is not familiar to me.

DesirousOfChange

I find the JWs in the UK to be more liberal

I think JWs differ widely from one area of the US to another. Rural areas vs. metropolitan areas can be quite different in attitude, as can liberal vs. conservative areas of the country.

Years ago when country line dancing was popular, it was cause for removal of privleges in one area, but in another it was popular entertainment for elders, MS, and all.

Regardless of where you're at, they all try to impose THEIR conscience on others.

DOC

24

For those still "in" the W.T , a Moral Question.

by wobble in

jw
friends

for those who are still in the jw/wt religion for whatever reason , and to whatever extent, i ask :.

how high would you rate your moral standards ?.

where do you stand on telling lies, upholding truth, deceiving others etc ?.

DesirousOfChange

Thats why people "leaving" is such a jarring thing with such jarring doctrinal practices.

"High profile" members (for lack of a better description) who leave are really troubling for the WT HQ. This is why there are such nasty labels given to anyone who leaves: apostate; adulterer; homosexual; etc... Of course, no one is supposed to know the confidential reason concerning why someone is DFd or DAd, but, have you noticed that somehow it ALWAYS leaks out. Some elders just cannot wait to drop little hints about the SECRET that they get to know about so-and-so. Many elders just cannot keep mouth shut around their wives. Elders' wives know EVERYTHING. Beyond that, 2nd most common incident I witnessed is elders of one Cong gossipping to elders in another Cong as though it was OK since you are an elder too, and you may have to deal with similar situation someday. In time everyone knows the hush-hush little secret that so-and-so evidently had homosexual tendencies, or .........

More to your questions, Wobble, I hold to the Bible's standards, not always necessarily as translated by WTS. Each person is accountable personally.

As the blinders loosened, I no longer felt bad associating with others who held different views or lived their lives differently. They too have personal accountability and free will. No Higher Authority appointed me to be their judge.

I want others to view me as a person of integrity -- not judgmental, not cauing harm to others, but compassionate and caring. For quite some time now already, we had made the conscious decision to give anonymously to those we saw in need vs. giving to the WWW as they did not seem to really need more of our assets nearly as much as many of our friends who were in unfortunate circumstances through no fault of their own. The accounts reports at Cir Assm were probably the most important cause of this decision. An Assm Hall that's been owned for 20/30 years, that is tax free, and that is maintained with free labor and has been paid for years ago, should not need more and more and more money. More contributions from each circuit to the Assm Hall. All leftover funds in circuit forwarded to WTS. Higher per publisher "rental" charges for each subsequent assembly. Always broke broke broke and needing more and more money.

It's a gradual awakening however.

DOC

31

Governing Body arrogance vs. Legal Department's pragmatism - do you think there will be a slip-up at some point?

by sir82 in

jw
friends

the recent & surprising developments in the uk and australia got me thinking..... the governing body of jehovah's witnesses is nothing if not arrogant.

they consider themselves "god's channel of communication", stopping just short of claiming divine inspiration.

they believe that they and they alone are the masters of "christ's belongings" and are answerable only to him.. the watchtower society's legal department carefully crafts gb decisions so as not to put the watchtower society's assets or prestige as risk.

DesirousOfChange

I have to imagine them thinking, at least privately, "We're the Governing Body! Jehovah talks to us! Why do have to run everything past these #$%#@!! lawyers?"

I think running things past WT Legal is considered Theocratic Warfare. I'm sure they figure that the world's legal systems are tools that Satan is using to try to tear down WTS. Having their own bank of lawyers is good strategy since they are forced to live in "the world" but be "no part of it".

DOC

27

SURVEY: How many who are still "IN" are really out mentally (Do I need to put " S E X " in the Title to increase the number of hits on it?)

by DesirousOfChange in

there was quite a debate on another post about the increase/decrease throughout the wt history surrounding 1975 and subsequent time periods when ther have been major adjustments in doctrine.

it was said that the stasticis from 1965-1985 do not reflect a massive defection, despite the failure of the wt's prophecy for the end of the wicked system of things by 1975. .

i see the overlapping generation as another potention issue to cause fallout.

DesirousOfChange

My impression is that doctrinal reasons as mentioned by DoC are only for a minority the reason to leave mentally (or physically).

Lazarus: I think the fact that the Big A has been right around the corner for 100 years now is a real factor. Unfortunately, you have to be OLD to get to the point that you personally realize how long it's been ALMOST UPON US ANY MINUTE NOW........

Young converts or born-ins think that it is a NEW warning message going out. IT"S IMMINENT! Right............just like it was imminent for my grandparents, my parents, and me as a kid in school on up. By the time you wake up from the slumber, most of your life has passed by.

DOC

27

SURVEY: How many who are still "IN" are really out mentally (Do I need to put " S E X " in the Title to increase the number of hits on it?)

by DesirousOfChange in

there was quite a debate on another post about the increase/decrease throughout the wt history surrounding 1975 and subsequent time periods when ther have been major adjustments in doctrine.

it was said that the stasticis from 1965-1985 do not reflect a massive defection, despite the failure of the wt's prophecy for the end of the wicked system of things by 1975. .

i see the overlapping generation as another potention issue to cause fallout.

DesirousOfChange

CHAMPIONS: Congregation wise, I would say 20%

I was thinking of the post on here recently that said over 50% low hour (well below national average) publishers. Sure some are old or sick, but what about all those others who don't even get their 8 hours/month? We only had about 25%-30% do the 30-hour special aux pion arrangement and that was a big-time push for 100% participation.

If they are not mentally tuning out, then it's lots of appathy.

DOC