Damn, not as good. It is still a little enlightening when you do say something ... btw I dont comment on alot of your threads (cuz im still more of a lurker AND dont feel like i need too repeat you) but I like em :)
Posts by AiAi
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26Was Jesus' sacrifice really necessary? Or even a sacrifice at all?
by AiAi indoes it make sense that after adam ate of the fruit god would condemn all of mankind until jesus sacrificed himself?
does 1 perfect person's sin really equal 1 perfect person's sacrifice plus billions of imperfect peoples death and suffering?.
jesus' sacrifice to save mankind really was not a sacrifice at all if he knew he would be raised up after 3 days.. .
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26
Was Jesus' sacrifice really necessary? Or even a sacrifice at all?
by AiAi indoes it make sense that after adam ate of the fruit god would condemn all of mankind until jesus sacrificed himself?
does 1 perfect person's sin really equal 1 perfect person's sacrifice plus billions of imperfect peoples death and suffering?.
jesus' sacrifice to save mankind really was not a sacrifice at all if he knew he would be raised up after 3 days.. .
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AiAi
Chalam -
Does 1 perfect person's sin really equal 1 perfect person's sacrifice plus billions of imperfect peoples death and suffering?
Only if that person is God
But emptied himself of all divinity when on earth so still 'just' a perfect man while here.
Jesus' sacrifice went well beyond being absent from His body for three days.
I do understand he suffered a lot here on earth. but billions of others have suffered even worse. and his suffering seems secondary since it was not part of his atonement, only the act of him dieing was. so it still comes down to the fact that he only died for 3 days
Terry - WTF? Whenever I read you comments they always align closely with what I think. Get out of my head!
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26
30th Anniversary of the Free Minds Journal
by Dogpatch in30th anniversary of the free minds journal.
sunday, 13 march 2011 22:09well my friend chaton and i just finished sealing the last envelope of the 30th anniversary issue of the free minds journal.
i guess it must be one of the longest cult-related journals running.
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AiAi
Congratulations! You have definatley helped me on my journey out of the WT; I can only imagine how much and how many others you have helped in 30 years!
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26
Was Jesus' sacrifice really necessary? Or even a sacrifice at all?
by AiAi indoes it make sense that after adam ate of the fruit god would condemn all of mankind until jesus sacrificed himself?
does 1 perfect person's sin really equal 1 perfect person's sacrifice plus billions of imperfect peoples death and suffering?.
jesus' sacrifice to save mankind really was not a sacrifice at all if he knew he would be raised up after 3 days.. .
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AiAi
Ding – I do understand the error in wt theology, it really does not make sense that Jesus would only partially cover mankind's 'debt'. But, what I don't understand is how he compensated for mankind's punishment fully through his 3 day death.
Cold Steel -
Thus, when the apostles asked Jesus, "Lord, who did sin, this man or his parents that he was born blind?" they were showing a belief in the man's premortality.
I am trying to consider biblical theology, not what the apostles may have believed. I think your theory is interesting but not stated at all in the bible and most christians would disagree with you.
Suffering and growing were two reasons we came to the earth.
I think Adam was meant to fall
What if we were supposed to fall? What if it was necessary to our next stage of development?
You mean god wanted all the suffering (children dieing, murders, rapes, child starvation, disease, etc) to happen to us? For what? To make us toughen up? But, if we lived before now, how would that teach anyone anything if they were aborted before they were even born? Or died from SIDs? How does making people suffer teach them anything?
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Was Jesus' sacrifice really necessary? Or even a sacrifice at all?
by AiAi indoes it make sense that after adam ate of the fruit god would condemn all of mankind until jesus sacrificed himself?
does 1 perfect person's sin really equal 1 perfect person's sacrifice plus billions of imperfect peoples death and suffering?.
jesus' sacrifice to save mankind really was not a sacrifice at all if he knew he would be raised up after 3 days.. .
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AiAi
SBC - That is a real good thread, and very close to my point. I have not fully made up my mind on the bible; people like PSac do make a lot of good points concerning sunjects that im wondering about that keeps me on the fence. But with this subject I still fail too see how jesus dieing for 3 days compensates for everything.
WTWizard -
But, even if one believes that it was necessary, why do we still have to self-sacrifice? If we offer additional sacrifice, we render null and void the "perfect sacrifice, to which nothing ever need be added"
That I also dont understand. Did Jesus' death save us or not? If you owe god $100 and Jesus paid $99 of it for you that is still a good gift, but it does not obsolve you of your debt
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26
Was Jesus' sacrifice really necessary? Or even a sacrifice at all?
by AiAi indoes it make sense that after adam ate of the fruit god would condemn all of mankind until jesus sacrificed himself?
does 1 perfect person's sin really equal 1 perfect person's sacrifice plus billions of imperfect peoples death and suffering?.
jesus' sacrifice to save mankind really was not a sacrifice at all if he knew he would be raised up after 3 days.. .
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AiAi
Ding - Even with taking our sins into his own body was still the same amount of sacrifice if he was going to have a heavenly one a few days later. Would it have still been such a big sacrifice of the widow giving her last 2 coins if she knew she would get a fortune in a few days? I do agree about what the real temptation was but that would only have been a temptation if the sacrifice of life was a true sacrifice of life.
Cold Steel - I do think that god had to sacrifice Jesus because of a self-imposed law he was unwilling to break. But, I fail to see how 1 perfect person's temporary death is equal to 2 perfect person's eternal death along with a billion others life-long suffering.
Moshe - I had never considered that they had to eat in the garden to survive ... interesting
tec - I think after so many thousands (millions? billions? more?) of years with god that Jesus would have trusted him implicitly even with his life.
As for the suffering in this world... that is caused by things WE do to one another; then blame God for.
Have you heard about Japan? Or any of the other numerous natural disasters just recently? What about disease? Famine? sure man did not cause these things to happen and neither did god, but he sure could have prevented it.
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Was Jesus' sacrifice really necessary? Or even a sacrifice at all?
by AiAi indoes it make sense that after adam ate of the fruit god would condemn all of mankind until jesus sacrificed himself?
does 1 perfect person's sin really equal 1 perfect person's sacrifice plus billions of imperfect peoples death and suffering?.
jesus' sacrifice to save mankind really was not a sacrifice at all if he knew he would be raised up after 3 days.. .
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AiAi
I have only been thinking about this recently but it really seems to me that Jesus did not make any real sacrifice, especially when you consider how long he has been alive so even the short time he was here on earth was barely a blink of an eye for him. So I really dont understand how he is worthy of being our only way to god, or how he even cancelled out Adam's sin since Adam was eternally destroyed for it.
Also, what about Eve? She was 'perfect' and ate too, does she need someone to cancel her sin? Or maybe since she is a woman she doesnt count as a person?
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Was Jesus' sacrifice really necessary? Or even a sacrifice at all?
by AiAi indoes it make sense that after adam ate of the fruit god would condemn all of mankind until jesus sacrificed himself?
does 1 perfect person's sin really equal 1 perfect person's sacrifice plus billions of imperfect peoples death and suffering?.
jesus' sacrifice to save mankind really was not a sacrifice at all if he knew he would be raised up after 3 days.. .
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AiAi
Does it make sense that after Adam ate of the fruit god would condemn all of mankind until Jesus sacrificed himself? Does 1 perfect person's sin really equal 1 perfect person's sacrifice plus billions of imperfect peoples death and suffering?
Jesus' sacrifice to save mankind really was not a sacrifice at all if he knew he would be raised up after 3 days.
Also, Satan's 'temptations' of him were not really temptations at all if he knew god would give him the kingdom; or, in the case of the trinity belief, if Jesus is god then there was definitely no way any of it was a sacrifice or temptation because he new he would save himself and Satan could tempt him with something he could have at any moment.
Do the 'sins' the average person does in an average lifetime really fit the punishment of eternal damnation? Would a just god really do that? What about the worldwide suffering that has occurred since the garden of eden? How does one sin from a 'perfect' man mean that everyone has to suffer?
Even if we are given our lives back through Jesus' sacrifice how is god going to compensate us for the billions of cumulative years of pain and suffering? Our imperfect worldly governments allow us to sue others for this so would not a perfect god understand there is still an unpaid debt?
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Help w/ Bible Teach ch 9 section "Major Developments of the Last Days"
by InterestedOne ini'm in ch 9 in my study, and we will go over the section "major developments of the last days" (pars 6-9) next week.
although i don't see anything special in pars 7-9, i think par 6 allows the jw's to strike a chord with people, and i was wondering if anyone could help me with how to respond to it.
they are able to quote real figures in that paragraph such as "three times as many people fell victim to war in [the 20th] century as in all the wars from the first century ad to 1899.".
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AiAi
The Watchtower's quote is directly in context from an article published by Worldwatch in 1999. Worldwatch made their conclusion from a 1991 article by William Ekhart called "War-Related Deaths Since 3000 BC". Interestingly he acknowledges in his article that previous research had shown that "war-related deaths have been of the same intensity throughout historical time"
Either way not proof of anything since there have always been wars and reports of wars
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On Jerkhovas Witlesses, Kingdumb Hells, Filthful & Discreet Slavebugger and Pio-sneering . .
by nicolaou ini detest this type of posting.
it's only my opinion of course and so long as forum rules aren't breached we're all free to express ourselves as we see fit.
doesn't mean i have to like it though.. honestly, can't you make your point without this kind of infantile name calling?
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AiAi
Now i find the terms amusing. But when I first saw this site it was these terms that made me think everyone was just angry apostates and it wasnt until a long time later I came back and looked deeper.